Straightarrow

That statement struck a cord with me. I was brought up shooting a recurve and you couldn' t draw and hold. The hard part was getting a shot off without the deer seeing you draw. My technique was to draw quickly and when the deer looked, I' d shoot before the deer had a chance to figure out what was going on. This is how I shoot today, with my compounds. If I could draw when the deer was 70 yards away and just hold it, until it walked in front of me, then it would be an awful lot like a crossbow. Not that crossbows are terrible in my opinion, but it' s not archery.

In my winter hunting league, I practice the same way. I draw, aim for about a second, maybe two and then release. I watch these guys drawing and holding for 30 seconds and I think, what are they going to do when they' ve only got a 3 second window to get a shot off at a deer? Probably draw a minute earlier and then just release, as the deer comes to the opening. At this point, why not just use the draw-loc devise and eliminate the drawing/holding aspect of archery?

PABowhntr

I could not agree more....but why then say that the one is some how more of an advantage to the other and therefore not " fair" or not " primitive" . (that is not necessarily directed at you Danny)


Arthur,

Now, you and I have been internet acquaintances for many years now and though we do end up disagreeing on a few issues we have always been able to do so with a measure of respect for one another' s opinions and an understanding for why we believe the things that we do. That certainly has not changed on my end in recent years and I would assume as much on your part. With that in mind, please do not take my next comments in the wrong way. They are not intended as such.

I have to disagree with you on this issue. I believe this issue, like so many others up for recent discussion, is entirely a matter of perspective. Who is it that makes the determination that being able to hold at full draw for 5 seconds is somehow different than being able to hold at full draw for a second or less? You? Me?

I honestly don' t have an answer to that but I do realize that others are probably going to have differing opinions based on their own experiences of this nature. What I have always found is that in order to be trully objective with these issues a person needs to continually re-evaluate the reasons behind the opinions that they have formed. Continuing to be open minded and operating under the assumption that there may always be " more than is apparent" on any given issue usually leads to continued education on any given subject.....which leads me to my next comments....

My opinion on this issue is not surprisingly similar to my stance on the issue of the Pope and Young Club' s decision to continue to promote the 65% letoff rule. I feel that in both cases there are so many other variables that are more important/necessary in order to successfully harvest a whitetail deer that focusing on restricting equipment is somewhat irrational. Case in point, I took my 80% letoff, 320 fps (rating), fiber optic sight-equipped bow out with me just about every day that I went bowhunting this season and yet I still did not manage to harvest a whitetail buck. I can only come to one conclusion.....It would seem to me that other factors such as scouting, scent control, stand placement and having access to land with little pressure and a good deer population are much more important factors than the type of equipment I used. Don' t you agree? If so then why continue to focus on equipment advances more so than other issues such as hunter access to private land versus public which would seem to play a more prominent role.

After knowing me for some time both in terms of the person I am and my passion for the sport of archery in general can you honestly say that I am not a bowhunter simply because I choose to use modern equipment?

Again, nothing I stated was meant to be accusatory or derogative in nature but rather was intended to offer a different opinion from those of us who find enjoyment in continuing to experiment with new equipment.

Redpath

My point exactly Pa. Of course P&Y wouldn' t recognize that animal because of the bow anyhow ( even if it took me years to hunt and kill an animal worthy of recognition) Where is the rolls eyes smiley?

I have never been to a 3D shoot, nor have I owned a primitive bow. I am just curious as to how well primitive bows do against modern bows in practice. It would seem to me that a modern bow would be more accurate and therefore more ethical to use as a hunting weapon. Opinions?

Arthur P

Frank, I know many guys claim they don' t draw and hold any longer than it takes to settle their pin. But when you listen to their war stories of their last hunt... How many stories have you read on this forum about someone drawing while the animal is behind the bushes then holding for well over a minute while waiting for the animal to get clear? Reading Beatty' s account of how he took that Ohio monster that started all the P&Y bashing because his MMMmmm bow had too much letoff, he flat out said he held full draw for at least two minutes.

I' m not talking a matter of a few seconds. I' m talking MINUTES.

Who' s to say that' s right or wrong? You, me and everyone else. Remember when archers were more concerned about what was good for the future of bowhunting than in their own immediate success and gratification? I do.

Redpath, be careful what dung heap you go digging in. Someone could also say a rifle is more accurate than a compound and so a compound is not an ethical weapon to use. Fortunately, that kind of talk is easily refuted. It' s not the weapon that controls the ethics. Ethics comes from the character of the person using the weapon. Know your limitations and stay within them.

Just for the record, stick a primitive bow in a shooting machine and it will shoot just as accurately as any compound. It' s the jerk behind the string that screws everything up.

Redpath

So, at your average 3D shoot, are there more jerks behind the string of primitive bows or compounds?

I dunno, bowhunting to me is having to use your own muscle to pull back the arrow. How long you can hold it there will differ from person to person. Holding a bow for 2 minutes is a long time. I will bet there are people in this world who can hold a 70lb primitive weapon this long, that boils down to genetics. I don' t think I could, so maybe I need a little help from technology, is this wrong? What about the guy holding a 70lb longbow for 2 minutes, is he cheating because he eats too much protein? I am sure there are laws in the books restricting technology in bows and there use for bowhunting, so why not leave it at that and call it a day.

Rangeball

Had you guys seen this regarding P&Y let-off % rules?

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...threadid=42306

Looks like after 12-31-03, the 99% let off bow will be eligible, with an " *" by the entry...

Arthur P

Redpath, at the shoots I attend, there are more traditionals than compounders. Except for the shoots I have to work, I pretty much avoid mixed shoots these days and mostly go to all-trad events.

But there you' ve stuck your thumb on another sore point with me. I' ve served as a club officer in two different clubs for the past 17 years. I' ve been tournament director at so many events that I' ve lost count. What I' ve seen over the past 15 years... Club memberships have nosedived, as much as 90% at the club I' m with now. Shooter participation is way down in comparison to what it was 15 years ago.

When you compare the number of archery hunting permits sold to the numbers of club members and tournament shooters, the numbers have never been all that great, but it' s gotten downright abysmal. 3D was supposed to be the game to bring Joe Average Bowhunter into the fold, and give him a game to play with his hunting equipment. It was meant to encourage him to get out, shoot and become a better a shooter. Theoretically it would help reduce the wound/loss ratios.

It worked... for a while. I don' t travel the country going to tournaments, but this is how things stand right now in my neck of the woods.

The game is overrun with guys using their super-duper specialized 3D rigs, scopes and broomhandle stabilizers and the pissy attitude that seems to go with it. Joe Average Bowhunter left and refuses to come back.

Even our club' s weekly fun shoots that are open to the public are mostly all trad. We don' t cater to the scopes and broomhandle stabilizer crowd, so they don' t come around. Joe Average has gotten such a bad taste in his mouth from 3D that he refuses to come and play. The only ones that really seem to enjoy getting out and shooting are the trads.

If you' ve never been to an all trad shoot, you' ve missed out. You won' t find a more fun bunch of people to be around. Trads are loud and rowdy. You don' t go five minutes without hearing a chorus of belly laughs from somewhere on the range. At a mixed shoot, seems like everyone is too worried about disturbing someone else. Deathly silence abounds! It' s like shooting in a morgue. It' s no wonder Joe Average avoids the whole thing.

What it boils down to is not so much equipment as it is ATTITUDE. Someone with all the high rolling stuff expects to hit a pinwheel each time he shoots and gets all aggravated when he doesn' t. A trad expects to shoot well, but he also knows that a lot of targets are going to be set beyond his personal limitations and he expects a few misses. There is no artificial pressure on him. On a lot of targets, a close miss is a good reason to celebrate. A pinwheel on a target he didn' t expect to score on is cause for a party. And there are those targets where everyone expects to score, but an arrow winds up skipping through the woods. And everyone gets a good laugh at the misser' s expense.

But, the question I' ve got is this. Is technology creating the attitude or is it the attitude that' s creating the technology?

Rangeball, I hadn' t seen that but somehow it doesn' t suprize me. Splitting the compound and traditional records makes sense, but I' m afraid it' s just one more wedge driven into the split between trads and compounds. A lot of people are beginning to think they are totally different things now and not simply opposite ends of the same rope.[:' (]

Danny45

Here is my dream bow. When someone makes it, please let me know.

Bow Type: Compound
Bow Length: 44" ATA
Let-Off: 65 Percent (so I can get a good clean release with fingers)
Harness: 450 premium string, steel cables.
Limbs: Solid fiberglass limbs
Riser: Machined aluminum, deflex or straight design, 8" brace height.
AMO Speed: 1400 fps. But would settle for 240 fps.
30" draw length, 70 lb draw weight.

Oh, it needs to be in Realtree Advantage camo.

Arthur P

Danny, switch the riser to wood, configured to shoot off the shelf, make it 46" , 60 pounds draw, around 3 pounds mass weight and I' m right there with ya.

Danny45

That' s a very good point. In fact, being a past officer of a local club, and involved in their shoots for a number of years, I' d say your whole post is " RIGHT ON" !!! We had alot of the 3-D only guys with the same attitudes as the ones you' ve mentioned. I' ve seen them gripe until they were foaming at the mouth if a shot was set up where they had to kneel, bend at the waist, or otherwise get out of their straight up and down form. A lot of them stopped coming out, but not before they' d made it so bad that alot of the average joes stopped first so they wouldn' t have to deal with attitudes and not have fun.