400+ fps!!!!!
 

Has anyone seen the new High Country Bows that shoot over 400 fps? You can dry fire it as many times as you want and it want blow up. They have new carbon arrows for it that weigh as little as 3 grains per pound. I talked to guy a the local pro shop sho shot one through a chrony at a archery show and said it read 406!

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I think they mean they will warranty it if it blows up. There is no bow brand period that will not have an occasional blow up due to misuse or defects in materials. I think high country is going to be flooded with warranty claims this year promoting the use of such light arrows (IMO). But with that said i have not shoot any of their new bows in the last 4 years.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

So far the only one I' ve seen in action was at the ATA show. 70lbs, 30" draw shooting a 225gr arrow. The point was to prove it would stand up to the occasional dry-fire or extra light arrow. The pieces went across the chrono at 417fps. Mostly, you can be asured that the bow won' t shoot 400fps in the real world because not very many people can get arrow weight that low in the first place, and certainly not a hunting arrow.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

A freind of mine has gotten 401 fps out of his with their ultra light arrows. Problem is it will not group consistently. With a 398 grn arrow, however, it shoots great and still maintains plenty of speed.

Happy Huntin'

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

The only problems HCA had at the bow show was with bow string failure, from what I understand the bow itself was fine. They have got a strong bow!!! Now they just need to find a string that can stand up to it.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Why would anyone want to hunt with that light of an arrow??? I guess it would be OK for 3D though.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

yes I am sure the HC bow is shooting that with arrows well below 5 grains per pound. But honestly who would want to shoot an arrow that light? If you shot a bowtech Extremem VFT or a Mathews Black Max 2 with a 4 grain per pound arrow you could hit that mark too but who wants to take the risk of blowing up their bow. I saw the HC' s at the ATA show but honestly I didn' t care for them. I don' t think the average hunter wants or needs to shoot such a light arrow to get that speed.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Actually Orion you' re almost correct ;) Kevin at BowTech stripped down an arrow at the ATA show(I think he had to use one of his wife' s arrows with no fletching or a point) to match the weight of High Country' s test arrow and took an Extreme VFT at the same specs and flipped her thru a chrono..........423fps.:D
I would imagine the Black Max or Hoyt' s Supertec would put up a similar number.
SOoooooo. It would appear that at normal IBO specs the High Country they used is just another average single cam bow performance wise.
Just a marketing scheme to garner some interest........and if you ask me if it' s taken seriously and literally,it' s one that might get somebody really hurt. [X(]

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

guys hca is not telling you to shoot a arrow of 225 grains for hunting they are just showing the extremes that the bow can go and yes the others will probably shoot the same or close to the same speeds but point is they will rattle your teeth out and this is fact i have personaly done these tests and at the magic 400 fps the hca carbon feels as if it was just 300 fps super quiet and no shock so if you can drop down to say 4 grains per pound and shoot say 360fps with a very fast quiet and accurate hunting bow would you not enjoy the yardage forgiveness this would give? :Dso yes there is something with the carbon that does exsorb the light weight arrows and i can guarantee that hca would not put out a bow and promote something that is going to be unsafe and create anyharm to anyone!

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Do they make their cams, strings, cables and idler wheels out of that same carbon as well? Cause thats what will be hitting you in the head not the limbs or the riser.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Funny guy another uneducated archer! that probably goes by what he hears also has anybody noticed that the ibo will let you shoot as light of an arrow it takes as long as you dont go over 280fps this rules has been in effect for a couple years and the asa has always been like this just food for thought

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Most of the people shooting less than 5 grains are women and kids shooting low energy set ups trying to get decent speed for 3d.You take your 70# hunting bow making 65++ ft lbs of energy and shoot 3 grains a # and see how long the bow holds up.If the energy is' nt absorbed by the arrow it is soaked up by the bow.Pretty cheesy marketing ploy if you ask me.

CB

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

fastpassthrough, I would question the motives of any company using such light weight arrows to try & sell a product. They may be trying to show the bow can take a pounding BUT those advertisements can be missleading & a lot of people are going to try & shoot those speeds. I also saw they are selling some new really light arrows 5.5 grainins per inch if I remember right.....that says to me they are willing to risk their customers well being to promote their high speeds. :(

Thats just my opinion so please don' t take that as anything personal or anything against the bow. I just feel safty is the number one thing any company should shoot for, they owe it to their customers!

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I don' t claim to be Fred Bear but I know this. I don' t care if you make the bow itself out of Titanium, the string, cables and cams are still made out of Dacron and plastic. You shoot a 60 to 70 lb bow at 3 grs per pound and eventually you will look like you got a package in the mail from Ted Kazinski.
Any speed bow from PSE, Hoyt, Mathews or Bowtec will shoot these same speeds with an arrow that light. They just aren' t irresponsible enought to in any way seem to advocate such a thing. HCA should issue a statement explaining the dangers of this and cut out all this misleading BS about a 400 fps bow. Till they do I have no respect for them as a company.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I know there' s marketing gimmicks out there but I don' t think they would put anyone at risk cause if they just shot them a couple of times and said well i guess 400fps is good enough without really ever testing it then they probably want be in business any more because they' ll be at the court house more than the factory. It' s just one of those things you' ll just have to wait and see. I believe I' ll give them a couple of years to see what other people say about them. I personally shoot a martin panther but my uncle is dealer and he got all the bow companies archery books in and I just happened to notice it. They' re making arrows for it that are 3 gpi. They claim they' re making everything out of military grade carbon ( i don' t know what types of carbon there is) even they' re shafts which have 5 layers of carbon so it must be tougher and lighter than the carbon they were using. Just have to wait and see and be open minded about it I guess because I think the technology is there to greatly improve the bows that are made this day and age.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Do not be mislead. Bow failure due to over-stress targets three specific points---the riser, the limbs, and the string/harness. The weakest link in all of these in recent years has been the aluminum riser. String/harness materials have developed over the last 10 years into some of the strongest materials with little to no stretch, and extreme tolerance and breakage strength. Limbs likewise have been further advanced/developed in recent years with carbon reinforcing, kevlar, and whatnot so they will withstand many times the stress they used to with triple the cycle capacity before failure.

The new carbon riser design originally developed by Diamond Archery and later sold to High Country is a multi-layer design used in many parts of the aerospace industry, super-strong with exceptional dampening properties. This makes for the final piece of the puzzle with which to build a bow capable of withstanding much higher stress levels without failure. We as an industry have been " running the edge" speed-wise since day one, first it was " lightweight" aluminums with dacron strings and wood laminate limbs and risers and whopping spedds of 210fps, then AMO standard at 6 grains was the " norm" for the next generation of cast risers and fiberglass limbs and speeds to 280, and then the next generation at IBO legal 5 grains, with machined aluminum and first generation carbon laminate limbs. Bowtech hit 340-350fps with this combo. Now the natrual progression continues with stronger materials that will take more stress, and higher speeds come from it. Pretty simple reasoning, really.

It is not fair to crucify the next generation of technology because you are too set in your ways to believe it can ever happen, or are loyal to a product that may in fact be upstaged at some point. Technology progresses, always has, always will, and we as a society will always " run the edge" when it comes to speed. It wasn' t long ago that we thought it was insane to think a bow could ever shoot 300fps no matter what it was shooting for an arrow, and even less time ago when the same thing was thought of 350fps. 400fps at no matter what grain arrow is just the next natural progression. I do believe it was stated above that this would mean that a bow that CAN shoot 400fps without failure for many thousands of cycles at 3 grains per pound will be relatively safe at 4grains or 4.5 and I agree, especially with the newer and stronger materials being used throughout.

I do not condone shooting 3 grains per lb but to be honest even I used to shoot 210 g carbon arrows out of 46" ATA bows with 8" brace heights at 85+lbs and getting around 340fps not all that long ago, so I feel it is up to each individual to know what they are getting themselves into when they choose their equipment. At the same time if they have the " next wave" of technology sitting in their lap and one that works, companies then shouldn' t be afraid to go out and advertise it either. I also was there when the bow blew up at the HCA booth at the ATA show, and IMHO that could' ve happened to anyone there that weekend. HCA had tested this product through many thousands of cycles out of many bows at the factory, and was more than willing to put it out for everyone to see. As they say $hit happens sometimes, and it happened at an inopportune time for HCA. That' s my take on that. I firmly feel the bow will hold up fine at 4-4.5 g, and at that it will be every bit as fast as any other bow on the market, yet still offer that fabulous carbon riser technology and dampening properties. Technology moves forward...;)Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I am with pinwheel on this.

As a general rule it is difficult to introduce new technology, in any industry. So here is HCA with their carbon risers, making very lightweight bows. How do they show the bows have the strength required, and how do they demonstrate that the dampening characteristics of carbon fiber are ideal for risers? Seems to me the method they chose to make a splash has worked. I don' t think that archers have such low IQ' s that they are going to go out there and deliberately shoot dangerous setups.

As far as I know the " speed records" held by various people in recent years were obtained using bows that had to be rebuilt after each shot. The resumes just say " ... holds record for fastest ..." . I don' t detect any shyness about using the experience as a marketing tool, to emphasize the design skills of the record holder.

Is there something about the people involved with HCA that I don' t know, that makes them targets for such criticism?

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Good post Kevin. I have been wanting to get your opinion on this for some time now.
Thanks.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Ya know what is realy funny about this???? Some of us here have been shooting for a long time in this speed game.. If one or another bow manufacturer never took the first step in speed related projects. Then we would still be shooting 250fps with alum. arrows. (imo) Dont knock the tec. guys who have made this sport alot of fun. Just a few years ago you only had a AMO rated speed, now there is a IBO rated speed. Man I was shooting the IBO' s before their rated speed ever hit the market.. Yep I was one of those that was shooting 90# a 2013 arrow with a cut down nibb and a overdraw... This is one of the reasons rules are put in, and technology has gone where it is today.. Oh yea do you guys remember when IBO rules were out to 60 yards??? Did you shoot at Nelsonville ?? Did you shoot the 70+ yard 2-d moose.. one more thing about technology------ Do you remember when just about everyone that shoots archery did not have a home computer???
Then we all talked on landlines. And the tec guys still made fast and safe bows... what a thought

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Very nicely put!

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Pinwheel, so HCA can shoot as fast as any bow, shooting 4-4.5 gpp. While the others are at 5 gpp? I' d bet other company' s bows will stand up to 4-4.5 gpp as well. But they won' t have to. I fully expect some new archers will buy the HCA & light arrows, fully expecting to shoot 400 fps all day long. I also fully expect the bow that blew up at the ATA Show won' t be the only one. The problem is the next one may not be in a machine, housed in a Plexiglas enclosure.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Phil-

Your arguement has no basis of fact, you are talking through emotion for your love of the Bowtechs and little else here it seems. No-one here is trying to take anything away from you or them, the Bowtechs are very fast bows and still arguably manufacture the fastest bow at 5 g per lb on the planet. No worries mate!:D

I' m not implying, nor is anyone else,(I hope) that this HCA bow should be shot at 400 fps all day long![:o] What we are implying is that the technology is definately advancing, and this bow should shoot close to 400 a hellova lot safer due to it' s extremely strong riser when compared to another bow with a riser of aluminum when all other components are of equal value, which they pretty much are in this case if comparing them. Run a BK2 for instance with aluminum riser at 3 grains and/or see how long it lasts in the " dreaded plexiglass enclosure" or anywhere else when dry-firing it through many cycles repeatedly. I will guarantee it will not be as long as the High Country with carbon riser, probably about 1/3 of the cycles if it' s lucky. Now take them both and put them in a " real-life" scenario shooting ultra light arrows at high poundages on a 3D range or anywhere for that matter. Which one would you better trust at high speeds and light arrows? Which one would you better trust with heavy arrows while hunting? The stronger components will always prevail, and carbon weave is many, many times stronger than aluminum. OK,class dismissed.[&:]:D

Nothing wrong with the Bowtechs, but there is nothing wrong with this High Country bow either. When looking at a pure " speed bow" , I know if I' m going to try to reach 400fps I know exactly where my money is going, and it will not be with aluminum risers such as we have today.(I like my body the way it is, thanks. I remember the days of parts flying everywhere, and we need that strength in bow components! ) As I stated, technology always advances, we simply have to accept it.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I always figured the advancement of faster arrow speed was going to come from new cam technology, not lowering the weight of the arrow being shot.
Are cams at the upper edge of the speeds they can produce?
Is their any room for more FPS in a shootable cam?

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Cams are about maxxed out with current designs, so they have to look elsewhere now for speed for the future advancements of bows. Draw force curves are pushing the limitations of efficiency, a pure 100% efficiency drawforce from todays' current bow designs will top out at somewhere around 418fps according to the laws of physics. It will also be very nasty to shoot. We will always continue the quest for additional speed, so of course there will be many new trials and errors and eventually advancements from them using newer, lighter, and stronger materials, and alternative propulsion designs such as air-assist, ratchet cams, force multipliers, etc. (We have already seen the force multipliers over the last 20 years, we will undoubtedly see more in the future along with many new inventions) These new designs sound awful " goofy" and strange to us right now but I can recall when the compound first was introduced, everyone thought Mr. Allen was crazy, too!;) The technology will continue to advance, make no mistake there, and we will flock to try them, just as it has been done since day one when man invented the stick and string.

One thing to remember in all of this hubub with the bow manufacturers and " speed bows" (or any bow for that matter) however-----there isn' t a bow company out there who wishes to be sued by anyone for bodily harm or negligence, and they all try hard to make sure their products are safe for the consumer, it is simple as that. The bad press (and lawsuits) could definately bury them in a heartbeat! (Look at the bad press that came from a mere cable failure at the HCA booth at the ATA show! Rumors, bad press, and word-of mouth can kill these companies very quickly) Therefore every bow is normally tested quite thoroughly amongst all companies to ensure that it is relatively safe for production before ever hitting the streets. Unfortunately isolated incidents can and will occur, that is allplayed upon percentages of items sold. Of course if we are also idiots and run them right on the edge of the abyss, then we have no-one to blame but ourselves,[&:] but if we run them in a relatively " safe" range we can still enjoy their capabilities--- at least until the next design comes to better it, that is.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I agree that HCA' s demonstration is to show strength not speed. In a hunting situation with fixed blade broadheads, speed is limited more by arrow spine than any other factor, in my opinion. A particular arrow is only going to fly well up to a certain speed. At some point, it' s going to flex too much on the shot, to get fixed blades flying properly, no matter how well tuned the bow is or what brand bow it' s shot out of.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Kevin, I do speak from fact. Fact is, the bow blew up. Fact is, HCA advertises 400 fps. With an extremely light arrow! I can' t imagine you don' t agree that some people will buy this setup & hope to shoot it at 400 fps. I won' t argue that other brands of bows wouldn' t suffer the same fate, as the HCA did at the ATA. But no other manufacturer advertises shooting these light arrows to attain the speed they claim. I don' t doubt that the HCA bows don' t shoot fine with an arrow of reasonable (safe) weight. So why carelessly advertise the use of, IMO, a potentially dangerous setup? Quotes from their ad

" 1. Military Grade CARBON TOUGH BOWS...
2. Two New Speed Cams designed to be shootable with....
3. Ultra Lite, Highest Grade Carbon Speed Pro Arrows!
HUGE SPEED GAINS......300 TO 400 fps
Minimum of 20 fps FASTER than Conventional Twin Cams!"

The emphasis here seems to be more on speed. Can you argue that someone new to archery might not be inclined to run off to an HCA dealer & buy this setup, not realizing they are taking chances? I would hope the dealers will point this out. Though some may not; it would hurt potential sales possibly. I don' t wish to imply that HCA makes bows of inferior quality. I' m sure they make a good product. I do wish to imply that their advertising is potentially harmful. Who pays the most attention to advertising? People that are less knowledgeable? Possibly new customers? The people most at risk. Not people that know better.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I feel like I have earned the right to be critical. I owned a carbon 4-Runner the riser literally snapped into. The bow was brand new and had only been shot about 100 times. I got through shooting layed the bow on the couch. It layed there for about an hour and them simply blew up. Thank God I wasn' t shooting it. The riser snapped into about 1.5 inches below the limb bolt[:o] So, that next generation technology, stronger that steel stuff just ain' t selling with me. I have seen a first hand demonstration of of the carbon and I know it can blow up just like anything else. So I still feel like their adds are misleading and a liability waiting to happen.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Phil, I understand what you are trying to say, thanks for explaining your view. Point of this is tho, WHO is to say how much stress(and speed) a carbon riser can withstand compared to an aluminum riser? Certainly not you or I my friend, we have no definitive means of testing them! But, the factories do, and I can assure you they will not let things out that are totally unsafe to use as it certainly will not benefit them in the long run. What I can say is that we DO know that the military-grade carbon is many many times stronger than aluminum,(this is documented in many areas , not just archery) and the carbon-riser bow HAS withstood many thousands of dry-fires, multiple times more than any aluminum. So again, who' s to say it cannot withstand 3 grains per lb for an average lifespan of a bow? If we do not feel safe about it, we don' t have to shoot that light of an arrow, simple. Yes, some guys will try to hit that 400fps marker, no doubt. I believe it can do it too, I saw bows years ago shot with CAST risers at 425fps,(fastest bow contest) and most withstood the 3 shots needed to qualify before failing at as much as 110lbs! Todays' bows can withstand alot more than we think they can, and the carbon just makes things even safer.

The Bowtech BK2 was also thought to be a radical design that was totally unsafe to shoot at it' s speeds when it debuted. I' m quite sure a percentage of them have failed also, but we are not pointing fingers saying they are complete junk and are totally unsafe anymore, are we? Fact is, with the carbon being so much stronger than the aluminum, I would be willing to bet the HCA design CAN withstand much more stress than it' s aluminum cousins and be readily capable of shooting 3 g per lb. Seems HCA is willing to stake something on this too.... One failure(or even a few) does not a bow company make, whether it was done in someones' basement, or at the ATA show. As stated earlier, that could' ve happened to anyone.

Again, I do not condone shooting bows that are unsafe, but seeing as I used to myself shoot with cast risers and insanely lightweight arrows at poundages of 85lbs or more and speeds well over 340 fps,(and I' m still standing here!) is proof enough to me that a 60-70lb bow that is hundreds of times stronger than those bows of yesterday will safely shoot speeds upwards of 375 with little trouble, especially if they are now being put into production with advertising to match. Companies cannot afford the lawsuits and bad press, so they must have some serious faith in this design. I' m going to try one soon, my curiosity has now been raised due to this discussion. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I think folks are not targeting the underlying questions in this whole “debate”

1) Do most people have enough faith in HCA to be the company to be making this (for lack of better term) “huge push forward”.

2) The riser may very well be designed to take the abuse, but what about the rest of the components?

From what I’ve seen of recent HCA bows (including the Brute Force Elite I purchased and reviewed last year) my answer to question #1 would be laughter followed by a resounding “NO”. In the past 7 to 8 years HCA has continually failed to demonstrate that they even have enough QC measures to produce a tight “normal” bow, let alone a “speed barrier breaking Bow of the Future”. I certainly do not trust a company that has a shaky foundation (both in the integrity of the owner and in R&D) to be putting out these bows.

Which leads in to # 2

Let’s assume the riser is foolproof, and it very well may be, though historically that has not been the case, but let’s just assume that every cabon riser that goes out the door can shoot a 225 grain arrow at 425 FPS all day long.

But what about the axles? Are they using an upgraded axle that can take that kind of stress? Anyone who has sold and/or shot HCA bows for any period of time knows they will go through some axles (and bushings)

What about the limb system? They better beef ‘em up and do a better job of QC on these, as they are often are not cut /sanded uniformly, Axles are not always center drilled correctly, and they are more susceptible to limb lean than any other split limb system I’ve dealt with.

What about the pockets? Are the limb pockets going to be able to take that initial brunt of energy as this bow is fired? Probably, and especially so if they use some kind of vibration eliminating technology with them (and they do)

Cams/Idlers? While the machining I’ve seen on recent HCA’s looks very nice, I’d hate to venture a guess either way if these cams/idlers are structurally sound to take that kind of beating day in and day out. Beef ‘em up, and this should not be a problem.

Strings and cables? This is one of the big areas. These are going to take a pounding. If they are using the same strings and cables that are on my Brute Force, they are not going to last long. They definitely need beefing up.

I think the riser is the smallest concern w/ this equation. The big concern is HCA’s spotty QC, pretty sloppy limb design, and use of less than optimal strength components. These (like the bow that was dryfired at the show) are going to be where the primary failure will be.

And that does not even take into accunt the fact that bow they had at show was probably above and byond qulaity wise the majority of bows that will go out the door. This is not a prob exlusive to HCA, but this is definitelya factor to consider.

Another note: to get those speeds most of us will need to use HCA’s new carbon arrows to get proper spines (unless we’d all like to go back to overdraws). Thin walls and IC carbons do not make for a very durable set-up.

Do we need this ‘push? Absolutely. Is HCA the company to do it, is the question. I’d be much more inclined to believe that the companies that will bring us better & SAFE technology to push the limits will be the companies w/ the most experienced R&D departments: People like Hoyt/Easton, PSE, Martin, Darton,etc. HCA historically has made a very good shooting bow , but they have been riddled with failures of all sorts from experimentation: The Ultra Extreme. The Carbon Lite-Speed. Their carbon tree-stand (most of you probably never even saw that). The Phantom Extreme cam went through several incarnations before they got it beefed up enough to where they would not crack shooting 6 grains per pound, let-alone 5 or under. Hell,they couldn' t even get thier cable guards right for 5 years.

HCA’s history speaks for itself. A company that was once near or at the top of the heap, who was mis-managed and poor QC’ed nearly to death. This is NOTthe company I want building my 3 grain per pound shooter.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Jeff,

My thoughts exactly!!!!![:-][:-]

See if you wait long enough someone will come along and post everything you wanted to say - and say it better:D:D

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Pinn, with all due respect I would think that if someone who bought into HC' s marketing and purchased a 400 fps High Country bow and arrow set up, would fully expect to be able to " shoot it all day long" . I would if I shelled out the money they want for it. I have to guess that it' s allready happened to someone. I can' t emagine this particular bow to be a top 3D contender, let alone in the western states where the wind is a constant drain on accuracy. The industry' s lightest bow will not promote accurate shooting for anyone especially with 225 grain arrows in the outdoor shooting environment. I' d bet shooting at an antelope 3D at 60 yards with HC' s speed bow and arrows in a Wyoming or western Nebraska environment would result in looking for lots of arrows, at least in my hands anyway:D When loaded down with IBO weight arrows, the bow in question is still fast but not as fast as some;)

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

In all honesty yes JeffB, HCA has produced some serious garbage in recent years. I do not question that. However, in all honesty also, they have come through with some fine advancements, and OWN patent rights to, some of the finest technology in the industry. I firmly believe the carbon riser is the way of the future, and I give them credit for producing equipment that will (on paper anyway) be the next stepping stone. Whether or not they build it to exacting specs and unwavering quality remains to be seen, but my guess is that they cannot afford to screw this one up and still remain in business. (The bows from them I' ve seen recently seem far nicer than those from a couple of years ago too.)

I recall other companies who made serious mistakes---remember when PSE could not keep limbs on their bows? How about when the Q2 and Q2XL were introduced, and they came through with paint falling off and cams shredding cables due to corners being cut and the cams not buffed? Or more recently, Mr. McPhereson himself bashing Hoyt in their advertising?(big boo-boo) Even Merlin recently re-vamped their Omega cam, and sent everyone who bought the first generation the upgrade. Yes, mistakes happen to everyone.:eek:

Bottom line is that no matter who' s name is on the bow, the technology is here for the next step forward, whether you choose to trust HCA or not is up to you. Eventually others will also license the military-grade carbon technology, and the speeds will continue to go up within the industry. Evolution continues.

[I happen to know of another company that is throwing their hat into the speed wars that should raise some eyebrows in 2004. The evolution continues....Stay tuned....;)] Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Kevin,

Most of my comments were of a general nature, not directed at anyone in particular, but I’ll address a few of your points, since you made some good ones.

Yep everyone makes mistakes. EVERYONE. However the difference is HCA has a history of mistakes that have gone on considerably longer than a bad production run. The Ultra Extreme was built for a few years (and I know you had the same experiences I did w/ that bow). The cable guard, limb problems, and bushing wear have been constant thorns in their side since the company’s inception.

Most of the examples you cited were more along the lines of “whoops, we F#$%&D up”. (though I know there are few who would take exception in the case of PSE’ limb probs have been solved, hee hee).

Singlecam cable serving wear was a problem long before the SL2 cam came out. In fact theThe SL design in general was a big improvement. Yes, some of the SL2’s were very bad. The problem was fixed by the middle of the production year (though bows w/ the prob still sat on shelves). I owned an original Q2XL bought in April 2000 that never exhibited the problem some had. Since that time I’ve owned probably 8 or 9, maybe even more SL 2 ,Sl3, and Concentric cam bows from Mathews proper w/ nary a problem other than serving discoloration. The finish problem was a fairly isolated circumstance (final coat was not applied on a few different batches of risers). New fiishes don’t exhibit the problem (though again how good a Mathews finish is is debateable among some)

Merlin’s problem w/ the Omega, again an isolated prob, and fixed.

Hoyt’s original camo redline cams chewed up cable servings too. Replaced w/ the Black cams by mid-summer. They had their disaster in 1999 w/ a bad batch of glass from Gordon. Limbs coming apart left and right, now they have what is largely thought to be the lowest failure rate on the market, percentage-wise. Bowtech’s earlier model finish problems, and even this years problems with bushings on the duals. These things were caught, and rectified.

HCA’s problems have been in many cases, year in, and year out. The cable guards have been a problem since the Excalibur. How many mid year changes have they done to that alone: there was the low mount w/ steel. Then the low mount w/ Carbon. Then the high mount with carbon. Then the High mount w/ an angled carbon rod. All in one and half year’s time! The angled rod increased bushing wear (which is what the low mounts were doing w/ the 14” limb bows). So then the bushings started to change every six months to accommodate the poor cable guard design. Then they changed the Cable guards again in 1999. And based on what is on my 2002 model, they still do not have it right: My 3-49’s deflect less ;)

I won’t even get into the limbs. They have been a common problem since the old “flared” models from the very early 90’s

Make no mistake, Id’ LOVE to see HCA get their ducks in a row, and start putting out some CONSISTENTLY good quality products! I’d be first in line to buy one, because as you & I well know, If you get a good one, and they shoot wonderfully.

Absolutely the Evolution continues. HCA played their part, and unless they pull a Hat Trick, I don’t see them playing any mentionable part in the future other than perhaps for inspiration. Their most dedicated and loyal team member (and some would argue the man that put them on the map, as far as 3D goes), Burley Hall, finally gave up and went his own way. That particular action speaks volumes, IMHO.

I just don’t think HCA is the company to shake things up, and certainly is not the model for a safe durable bow manufacturer at least in this point in time. Most people are finding it hard to take them seriously, which as you mentioned is going to be a problem for Mathews after their recent advertising campaign (I agree, stupid move, regardless if there is some legitimacy in those claims or not).

Safety is my concern here. Only because HCA has a (very deserved) bad reputation for all kinds of trouble running the gamut from poor fundamental bow design to “experimental” tech. I personally have not seen the improvement based on my own 2002 model purchase last summer, and the bows I’ve seen in various shops in my travels.

Doesn’t mean HCA cannot whip themselves into shape, but they have not only shot off their own two feet, they’ve done a damn good job of taking out the legs and torso too ;)

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I still think it is misleading to advertise what they are. A lot of people will buy a bow & think it will shoot 400 fps when in fact they won' t because they will not knwo what to do to get those speeds. I am lso concerned about their QC as stated by JeffB. When you make poor quality (Due to QC problems) bows for so long who wouldn' t wonder if it is safe to shoot or not!

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

WHAT' s THE POINT !!


Yes, I understand that making a tougher bow is good.How tough does it need to be.I understand the advantages of the carbon riser.


But the fact still remains that you can' t shoot less than 5 gr per pound in IBO.If you do,you can' t shoot over 280 fps.You can already shoot a short draw bow very safely at 4 gr per pound to reach 280 fps.Maybe they think the IBO will change to accomidate the safer,faster rigs.I doubt it.I can see this being like the 65 % letoff rule and P&Y.

I would hope that they aren' t promoting the use of 225 gr arrow for hunting.I could see a lot of wounded animals around. Shoulder blades in an elk would eat that up. The person that is going to buy into this real light, real fast stuff is most likely going to be the person that doesn' t need to be shooting anywhere near that kind of speed in the first place.It takes much more experience to handle that.


If they want to show the toughness of the riser and bow components with this test, then fine, but I think they need to leave it at that.

Just my take on this.

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I believe they should have just said," Our new offering shoots 320 IBO and is lighter than anything out there" . They would have probably sold a ton of them to the western hunters;)

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

FastPassThrough. You made a comment about the speed of the bow being more forgiving at longer distances. The difference between 20fps and a 2yard miss judge is gonna give about a 2" variance high or low.

So the best thing to do would get your feild yardage judgement down to a tee and not worry about how fast you are shooting. For me, my drawlength with a compound is about 27" give or take maybe a quarter inch. Even with these arrow cooking setups, I' m never gonna get that speed and neither are all the other normal draw archers. Later.
Dylan

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

A few more final thoughts---

First, I think that lighter arrows and faster bows will continue to evolve, just as they have since the invention of the bow and arrow as depicted in my previous posts. Personally I feel none of us have a right to throw up barriers on technology advancement for any reason other than safety..... That being said, I firmly believe the implemented 280fps rulings in certain formats is completely ludicrous at this stage of the game and should in fact be upgraded. Those speeds were implemented back in 1994 by the ASA and to freely allow the industry to continue it' s evolvution we must also increase those speed restrictions every few years to keep in line with the progression of new technology and new strength/safety capabilities of the equipment thereof. Bottom line. What would have happened if everyone said " that' s good, don' t need anything lighter or faster" about the model A Ford at 30 mph? Same thing.

A lighter arrow is not a bad thing--in fact it helps with trajectory and creating a larger hit window no matter the distance, giving the shooter a chance to hit the kill zone more frequently with a less-than-perfect yardage call, especially at distance. This is due to the extra speed that is exhibited from these lighter arrows. If of the same configuration and speed the heavier arrow will produce more KE yes, but if the ligher arrow is travelling at a much higher rate of speed coming out of the bow it will still produce decent KE, and produce a much larger hit window at the same time, so that arguement is neglible at best for everything except very large game, especially at realistic bowhunting distances. Now we are only left with the arguement of safety, and as stated the technology is much more advanced now than when the ASA implemented the 280fps ruling and the equipment much stronger. (IBO basically copied them, but DOES allow under 5 grains per lb to reach that " miraculous" 280 marker!) BTW-- Does anyone know where the 280fps came from? It came from certain manufacturers whose bows at the time did roughly 280 and they wanted to ensure that they could stick with their same configurations for a few years.(essentially " sandbag" and reap the rewards financially) Other certain people were " convinced" (LOL) of this and their organizations received a substantial " reward" .(sponsorships) Had nothing to do with any proper testing during the period or anything, the number was basically pulled out of a hat because certain bows at the time ran that particular speed. Money talks.....

HELLO!!!----

They don' t run that speed anymore, and the sandbagging needs to stop! Most every compound bow on the market can safely run much higher than 280 even tho they have been " reigned in" for the past decade, short-draw archers can safely shoot less grains per inch because of their lesser powerstroke and stress on components, so they too can easily reach 300+ if they are educated about these principles and realize the safety is not an issue and they can. We will always have a few occasional incidents of failure just as we always have, but there is no reason to restrict ourselves into believing this is the end of the line, and/or throw a big barrier up and/or post that light weight arrows (even tho stronger) or faster speed is " no good" or " unsafe" .

Back in the mid to late 80' s I regularly shot 3D courses with 210grain AFC 2100 carbons out of a variety of cast-riser bows at serious 330-340+ speeds, and altho the spine would go out of the arrows quickly and we found out eventually that we couldn' t hit anything with them,(LOL) we were shooting full 40 target courses every weekend, and even then, altho the bows were quite LOUD and you heard of failures frequently, realistically there were few incidents of people really getting injured, and EVERYONE at the time was way over the edge pushing the envelope.

With the now stronger-spined biased wrapped lightweight arrows, Straight and level nock travel, and new-age technology that is hundreds of times stronger than what it was in years past, the industry will see much higher strength, speed, and yes, safety ratings in the future. This is already happening and will continue, mark my words, like it or not. I remember people hated the first compound bow with a passion too, saying that it was no good and that it would never work and that we have no need for them or that much speed....where would we be now if we didn' t let go of that ridiculous thinking? This new technology might or might not come from HCA, but as mentioned the technology for the next step forward is already here, and someone will be refining it shortly. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

I will agree that advancement in bow technology will allow bows and their components to withstand more energy without failing.However the excess energy means more noise and vibration.Also the lighter arrows are less efficient.It gets to be a point of diminishing returns.Superlight arrows will lose energy and momentum at longer ranges.For target archers that is not a big deal.For bowhunters it can be.I still think it' s a cheap marketing ploy by HCA,speed sells.And just think people used to kill critters with a sharp rock tied to a stick.One more consideration in regards to bow technology advances is the perception by gun hunters and wild life mangers.While a bow will never be the equal of a high powered rifle,as technology advances it becomes harder to justify special archery seasons and bag limits.A lot of gun hunters are jealous of the early seasons bow hunters enjoy,especially for elk.The perception of archery equipment as a primitive weapon gets harder to justify as technology advances.

CB

RE: 400+ fps!!!!!
 

Good point about the seasons and distinctions, but I also look at that point this way--no only is archery advancing, everthing else is too. Rifles are much more accurate than they used to be, and their technology progresses right along with everything else. Pretty soon the rifle hunters will be shooting with lasers, yet we as bowhunters will still be shooting an arrow off a string! Whether or not they are doing 400, 500, or even 1000 fps means little, because everything else tech-wise is moving along at the same pace with it. Look at muzzleloader season, they are so close to rifles now that it is incredible, yet they still have their seperate season also. I think we have pretty fair legs to stand on if you think about that aspect for a minute.