Tuning Problem **update page 6** Bowtech guys little help?
 

I have had the following tuning problem with 06 Allegiance for almost a year.
Accuracy and penetration seem fine but it contiunally makes the attachedtear on paper (5/8" long).

I have:
- Set center shot withmy EZ eye
- Tried different rests (QAD, Trophy Taker, WB)
- Replaced string and cable with WC
- Set timing marks to factory specs (sixth dot)
- My dealer has tried too

Bow stats:
70 lb 27.5" speed mod
GT Prohunter's 5575 27"
100 grain head

I can shoot bullet holes with my friend's 07 Guardian and my bow makes the same tear when he shoots it. I know that I can shoot it the way it is, but I believe it should shoot through paper better.

Any suggestions at all?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Have you tried turning the poundage down?

try 1 turn on each limb and see if that makes any difference.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Move the rest to the left. New arrows?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Wait mabey right

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Kanga-
I will try it, but the Easton tuning guide describes this tear as a stiff reaction in compound release shooters.

Bowtech-
Moving the rest to the extreme adjustment (away from riser)will correct the tear but the arrow is so far from mechanical center shot that I do not believe it can be the correct way to shoot it.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I knew I would get that tear wrong:D

Go to a heavier head and see what happens if that dont work you might have to get more arrows and cut them longer to weaken the spine.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Your suggestion makes sense because my arrows are close to being overspined depending on who does the OT2 calculations.

Maybe I should pony up for 7595's then I could go high FOC?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Have you bareshaft tuned it? I find bareshaft much easier and quicker to tune. And it tells the tale about spine.
7595s will be even stiffer than what you got.

Generally when I see this, I have clearance issues with my vanes.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I shot it bareshaft today and the tear worsened. I have shot 4" duravanes as well as blazers with ideintical results. I have indexed my vanes for maximum clearance in relation to the cables.

I know that 7595 will be stiffer but the tuning guide mentions an opposite reaction:

For archers using release aids, it may, in some cases, be

necessary to apply adjustments opposite from those

described. The type of arrow rest and release aid

combination used can alter the dynamic flex of the arrow

to produce tear patterns contrary to those indicated

(although it is uncommon).

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I am talking about bareshaft tuning. Papertune can cause more trouble than good

RE: Tuning Problem
 

bigcountry-
I will try the bareshaft method outlined in the easton guide (unless there is a better description available). I still don't see why I can't make this thing shoot straight thru paper!

Where are you in MD? I grew up a few miles North of Havre De Grace.

Kevin

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I am in westminster. I didn't grow up here. Moved here 12 years ago.

You can get it to shoot well thru paper. But if your facing improper spine, its very difficult. Other things could be at play here. Like limbs twisting, or some other issues.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I just turned it down to 60 lbs 2.5 turns on each limb and the tear reduced to about 3/8".

Should I try 7595's?

Or, is there a method to troubleshoot for other issues like limb twisting?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I think it's pretty much covered. My thoughts are your arrows are underspined as 5575 is a 400 spine. 7595 is a 340 spine. The other possibility is that your idler wheel is leaning. This often gives a right tear that cannot be tuned out.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Well, have you tried a heavier tip like 150gr and see what happens.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

BGfisher - Concur. Spine is suspect. Not too sure that my bow has an idler wheel...

bigcountry - I have some 125's I can try. Stay tuned.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

At 60 lbs with 125's the tear is about the same (3/8") with same orientation,

At 70 lbs with 125's the tear opens to alomst a full inch.

Seems like I might be overspined despite the 'stiff' reaction description in the tuning guide.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Your arrow is weak,regardless of what the paper is telling you.Sometimes paper doesn't do what it is supposed to.


It is also possible that the lazer is lying to you as well,all that does is get the arrow square with the riser,what if the riser isn't square with centersot.;)

I suggest finding true center other ways,walk back,group tuning,french tuning,whatever.


The cam lean is also a definate possibility.


You are on the right path though,keep the centershot where it is supposed to be regardless of the tear and then find out what is causing the tear.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Just make sure you find TRUE centershot first.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

TFOX,
Sent you a PM.


All,
Can I adapt the EZ eye to check for cam lean? I have access to a machine shop.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Well, you need to find out if you have a cam lean issue. IMO, its fairly easy to see. I just put a hook on the cieling and take the bow to full draw. Or get someone to help. I use a spott hog laser to see if the cams line up at both full draw and rest. But you can use a pretty long "level" or straight rule. Use the flat surfaces of the cam. Some can eyeball it to see if they are leaning or not.

If it was me, I would put the 125tip back on, get the tear down as least as possible. And then adjust my restto compensate. If your not moving an outrageous amount away from the riser or to the riser, I would then move on to broadhead tuning and if they have simular Point of impact as field points, I would call it good.

When bare shaft tuning with compounds with release, you sometimes have to do the opposite as the easton manual specifies. For example on a bow I was working on, my bare shafts was hitting tail left, tip right and my fletched arrows hit to the left. For a finger shooter, this would indicate a weak reaction. But with this bow, that was impossible. I put a heavier tip on, and things straightened out. But I had to go to a 150gr tip, which I didn't want to do. So I adjusted the rest 1/16" towards the riser (opposite that a fingershooter would do), and fletched arrows impacted same as Bareshaft out to 30 yards, Broadheads had same point of impact, and paper tuned showed a bullet hole. Many tuners snarled at this, and I verified no cam lean with my laser.

I am not a compitition shooter, but a hunter, so I was happy.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I misread your original post. Sorry. I was thinking Mathews. You have a Bowtech with Binary cams so there is no idler. But if there is any cam lean I know of no way to adjust it out.

It doesn't matter a whole lot though. I still think your main problem is arrow spine being UNDERSPINED. That, and maybe a little added centershot issue. Combination of the two, maybe?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

According to OT2 and other programs, he is far from being underspined with a 27" .4" spined arrow with a 27.5" draw at 70lbs. What program are you using?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

No fancy computer program. Just 35 years of practical experience.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Archers Advantage has him WAY underspined.I am with BG completely.


I have said it before and I will say it again,I have found OT2 to be less than accurate.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I installed some of my daughter's 60 grain tips and the 70 lb, 27", 5575 tear was reduced to 1/4-3/8" without resetting laser center shot.

Based on all this, I bought 6 7595 GT Prohunters to try. The glue is drying on the fletchings and we'll see how it goes tomorrow after resetting laser center shot. It is really not that big of an investment in the grander scheme of this sport.

Goldtip must use OT2 because they maintain that the 5575's are adequately spined for my set-up.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Look, I have been shooting Gold Tips for the last four years. Before that a slew of different aluminum, carbon, and carbon/aluminum arrows. I don't profess to know everything, but from everything I've encounterd in Gold Tip their common arrows such as the Expeditions and XT shafts are mislabeled. Let's just say nearly 10#. In other words they should be labeled 4565.

For instance, the 7595 is supposed to be a 340 spine. Do you really know anybody in their right mind that would shoot a 340 spine at 95#?I wouldn't even shoot them at 75#.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

The 5575's are a .400 spine and the 7595's are a .340 spine according to AA and OT2.


I wish you were able to give me exact specs on arrow weight and speed to calibrate AA to your specs.OT2 can't be properly calibrated imo(actuall speed).

OT2 uses cam style to figure spine match,AA uses actuall performance(speed).AA says you need a .340 spine and OT2 says you need a .422.One of them is off.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Exactly my feelings and they don't even take draw length into account.:eek:Everytime I run their shafts through AA,I find exactly what you have found in the REAL WORLD.


I don't shoot Gold Tips so I can't fall back on personall experience,other than what I have seen on AA and I have been using it for years,I even beta tested the previous version.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

If the 7595's don't fix the tear,I will make the trek to the more distant bowstore that has a chrono.

Thanks for all the help!!

RE: Tuning Problem
 

What rest is currently on the bow?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Why not just try a whole different brand of arrow ?? This is a lot of work over the course of a year to get a bow to shoot right.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Ok, fair enough, my 25 years of practical experience says he is fine at 27".

Why are egos so prevalent on these forum????

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Guys, I have shot .34" spine from 06 allegience at 29.5" draw with a 29" arrow. Perfect performance. Thats 2" longer. AA is way off if it says .4" spine is "WAY" underspined for the guys situation. Thats practical experience.

He said he dropped to 60lbs. Would your AA that you trust so much show that to be a better spine?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

TFOX - The rest is a Trophy Taker. I have used a QAD and a WB with identical results. There is a Hostage around here somewhere's that I can try but I don't suspect the rest.

Mikey - Carbon Express 250 Maxima's at 27" produce identical results.

Thanks for everyone's patience. I will post when I shoot the 7595's this morning.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

No ego problems with me whatsoever. As I said above, I don't profess to know everything. YOu know that to keep up with this sport there is always something new to learn. My point is, that with many carbon arrows having a range of about 20# getting something that will shoot isn't so much rocket science, or computer science. I've got nothing against computer programs, but as with many things, they aren't always the complete answer. One thing they can never calculate is a person's shooting form, grip torque, etc.

Here again. My experience only tells ME what usually will work for ME. And that's really the only thing I can go on. I do know that if I had a bow for a year and still couldn't get it to shoot well I would have been making some drastic changes a long time ago. I lover limb bolts, though. Most overlooked tuning tool in archery today.

And please, whenever you read my posts do not think I am being confrontational with you or anybody else. All I'm doing is passing on information from my point of view. Now back to the origianl problem

RE: Tuning Problem
 

I shot the 7595's at 27", 70 lbs with 27.5 speed mods and laser center. Photo's attached.

I can shoot the same as above with 60 lbs if it will help.

Or, I can make the trek to the bow shop with a chrono if it will help to put this to rest.

Thoughts?

RE: Tuning Problem
 

It seems to me that you are relying on your EZE eye to find centershot.

I have a Mission X3, and if you tried to set centershot with a centershot guage, you'd be way off.

I don't know the geometry of your bow, but I do know that YOUR correct centershot setting will be determined by a combination of the bow's geoetry and your form. That's why I rely on the walkback method to establish centershot. Shooting at a point on a vertical line on your target with your 20 yd pin only, at distances of 10, 20, 30 and 40 yds, if your arrows fall in a vertical line, you have foundYOUR centershot.

If you then shoot broadheads and they are impacting left or right of fieldpoints you can tweak your rest accordingly. At this point, assuming your arrows are flying with no visible fishtail or porpoise, I'd say you are all set.

IMO you are unnecessarily concerned with paper tuning.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Yep, good advise.

RE: Tuning Problem
 

Kevin.

You have a pm;)