What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
05-20-2008 | 07:00 AM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
It such a waste of everbody's time!
It such a waste of everbody's time!
05-20-2008 | 09:46 AM
#82
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
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RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
I really don't understand how anyone can say that heavier arrows will always increase momentum and KE. When one keeps increasing the arrow weight, the closer that velocity approaches 0. There has to be a breaking point to where arrow weight will start to harm penetration. Momentum and KE just can't increase into infinity.
Mean V's post about how his KE drops off with heavier arrows is a perfect example. He apparently hasn't exactly zeroed in on his bow's heaviest efficient arrow, but he know's he's gone over it.
WHAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT ARROW WEIGHT FOR MY SET UP?
)But be aware that the mechanically 'most efficient' arrow might not be the 'best' arrow for you to use. It might be too heavy to give you an acceptable trajectory. I'm not talking flattest trajectory of course, just acceptable. What's acceptable? That's YOUR call.
Some of these nimrods grew up on the 3D course instead of hunting in the woods. Just like on the 3D range, they bank on arrow speed and flat trajectory to bail their sorry butts out when they screw up - probably when taking a shot at significantly longer distance than they should. These folks can't stand the idea that someone else might have the personal discipline to keep their shots within a defined CLOSE distance (rather than surrendering to the urge to be 'successful' and taking poke-n-hope long range shots), and are thus able to make good use of heavier, slower, more efficient arrows. It's a fact that the closer the distance, the less trajectory is an issue.
This isn't an exact quote, but the meaning is still there: "Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from a target and still hit it. Bow hunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss." Keep that little saying in mind and hunting arrow trajectory should never be an issue.
Just my opinion, of course. Calling it like I see it. Any or all of you have my permission to disagree. I know Sylvan will disagree, given my permission or not. I'm all busted up over it too. [8D]
05-20-2008 | 10:43 AM
#83
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,367
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From:
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
True. As you increase mass, the momentum increase will be linear. It won't follow a nice bell curve, like someone earlier wanted to see. When you get really close to the extreme end of the bow's efficiency range, the graph will begin leveling out. When you increase mass to the point it exceeds the bow's efficiency range, then KE and momentum will begin falling off, rapidly.
Mean V's post about how his KE drops off with heavier arrows is a perfect example. He apparently hasn't exactly zeroed in on his bow's heaviest efficient arrow, but he know's he's gone over it.
Grab your bow, a handful of arrows of various weights, chronograph and calculator and find out. That's the only way to know for sure. All anybody here can do is make an educated guess. (And some here need quite a bit more education before presuming they're qualified to be making guesses! )
But be aware that the mechanically 'most efficient' arrow might not be the 'best' arrow for you to use. It might be too heavy to give you an acceptable trajectory. I'm not talking flattest trajectory of course, just acceptable. What's acceptable? That's YOUR call.
Some of these nimrods grew up on the 3D course instead of hunting in the woods. Just like on the 3D range, they bank on arrow speed and flat trajectory to bail their sorry butts out when they screw up - probably when taking a shot at significantly longer distance than they should. These folks can't stand the idea that someone else might have the personal discipline to keep their shots within a defined CLOSE distance (rather than surrendering to the urge to be 'successful' and taking poke-n-hope long range shots), and are thus able to make good use of heavier, slower, more efficient arrows. It's a fact that the closer the distance, the less trajectory is an issue.
This isn't an exact quote, but the meaning is still there: "Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from a target and still hit it. Bow hunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss." Keep that little saying in mind and hunting arrow trajectory should never be an issue.
Just my opinion, of course. Calling it like I see it. Any or all of you have my permission to disagree. I know Sylvan will disagree, given my permission or not. I'm all busted up over it too. [8D]
I really don't understand how anyone can say that heavier arrows will always increase momentum and KE. When one keeps increasing the arrow weight, the closer that velocity approaches 0. There has to be a breaking point to where arrow weight will start to harm penetration. Momentum and KE just can't increase into infinity.
Mean V's post about how his KE drops off with heavier arrows is a perfect example. He apparently hasn't exactly zeroed in on his bow's heaviest efficient arrow, but he know's he's gone over it.
WHAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT ARROW WEIGHT FOR MY SET UP?
)But be aware that the mechanically 'most efficient' arrow might not be the 'best' arrow for you to use. It might be too heavy to give you an acceptable trajectory. I'm not talking flattest trajectory of course, just acceptable. What's acceptable? That's YOUR call.
Some of these nimrods grew up on the 3D course instead of hunting in the woods. Just like on the 3D range, they bank on arrow speed and flat trajectory to bail their sorry butts out when they screw up - probably when taking a shot at significantly longer distance than they should. These folks can't stand the idea that someone else might have the personal discipline to keep their shots within a defined CLOSE distance (rather than surrendering to the urge to be 'successful' and taking poke-n-hope long range shots), and are thus able to make good use of heavier, slower, more efficient arrows. It's a fact that the closer the distance, the less trajectory is an issue.
This isn't an exact quote, but the meaning is still there: "Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from a target and still hit it. Bow hunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss." Keep that little saying in mind and hunting arrow trajectory should never be an issue.
Just my opinion, of course. Calling it like I see it. Any or all of you have my permission to disagree. I know Sylvan will disagree, given my permission or not. I'm all busted up over it too. [8D]
Sorry Sylvan![8D]
Dan
05-20-2008 | 11:13 AM
#84
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
From: Upstate New York
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
No Art, I won't disagree or ague with you. Like I said before debating long established principles of archery mechanics isa waste of time. It's a well understood subjectand the information is available to all. I posted an abridged version of the concepts of virtual mass and it's impact on bow efficiency and links to other sources in an attempt to injecta scientific explanation regarding the original posters question. Everyone here can accept it or discard it, interpret and/or misinterpret it. I'm not going to try to convince you or anybody.
You all have fun finding the arrow weight that gives you peak ke, lol [8D]
Bye!
You all have fun finding the arrow weight that gives you peak ke, lol [8D]
Bye!
05-20-2008 | 11:59 AM
#85
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Saint Paul, MN
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
ORIGINAL: Roskoe
The practical application of all this is that you want a pass through on a given animal. Once you have enough horsepower to accomplish this task, anything much above it is a waste of energy. So use an arrow that has features (one of which is weight) that will facilitate a reliable pass through. Much beyond that, increasing the arrow weight is going to sacrifice trajectory.
For me, with my setup, that arrow weight is in the low to mid 400 grain level. I personally like the feel of shooting 500 grain plus arrows, but probably won't hunt with them unless I find myself trying to arrow something like a bison. Even then, I think the small diameter slick shaft of an Easton Axis FMJ might still equal the penetration of a heavier but fatter Carbon Express Terminator.
The practical application of all this is that you want a pass through on a given animal. Once you have enough horsepower to accomplish this task, anything much above it is a waste of energy. So use an arrow that has features (one of which is weight) that will facilitate a reliable pass through. Much beyond that, increasing the arrow weight is going to sacrifice trajectory.
For me, with my setup, that arrow weight is in the low to mid 400 grain level. I personally like the feel of shooting 500 grain plus arrows, but probably won't hunt with them unless I find myself trying to arrow something like a bison. Even then, I think the small diameter slick shaft of an Easton Axis FMJ might still equal the penetration of a heavier but fatter Carbon Express Terminator.
05-20-2008 | 12:40 PM
#86
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Saint Paul, MN
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
True. As you increase mass, the momentum increase will be linear. It won't follow a nice bell curve, like someone earlier wanted to see. When you get really close to the extreme end of the bow's efficiency range, the graph will begin leveling out. When you increase mass to the point it exceeds the bow's efficiency range, then KE and momentum will begin falling off, rapidly.
Mean V's post about how his KE drops off with heavier arrows is a perfect example. He apparently hasn't exactly zeroed in on his bow's heaviest efficient arrow, but he know's he's gone over it.
Grab your bow, a handful of arrows of various weights, chronograph and calculator and find out. That's the only way to know for sure. All anybody here can do is make an educated guess. (And some here need quite a bit more education before presuming they're qualified to be making guesses! )
But be aware that the mechanically 'most efficient' arrow might not be the 'best' arrow for you to use. It might be too heavy to give you an acceptable trajectory. I'm not talking flattest trajectory of course, just acceptable. What's acceptable? That's YOUR call.
Some of these nimrods grew up on the 3D course instead of hunting in the woods. Just like on the 3D range, they bank on arrow speed and flat trajectory to bail their sorry butts out when they screw up - probably when taking a shot at significantly longer distance than they should. These folks can't stand the idea that someone else might have the personal discipline to keep their shots within a defined CLOSE distance (rather than surrendering to the urge to be 'successful' and taking poke-n-hope long range shots), and are thus able to make good use of heavier, slower, more efficient arrows. It's a fact that the closer the distance, the less trajectory is an issue.
This isn't an exact quote, but the meaning is still there: "Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from a target and still hit it. Bow hunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss." Keep that little saying in mind and hunting arrow trajectory should never be an issue.
Just my opinion, of course. Calling it like I see it. Any or all of you have my permission to disagree. I know Sylvan will disagree, given my permission or not. I'm all busted up over it too. [8D]
I really don't understand how anyone can say that heavier arrows will always increase momentum and KE. When one keeps increasing the arrow weight, the closer that velocity approaches 0. There has to be a breaking point to where arrow weight will start to harm penetration. Momentum and KE just can't increase into infinity.
Mean V's post about how his KE drops off with heavier arrows is a perfect example. He apparently hasn't exactly zeroed in on his bow's heaviest efficient arrow, but he know's he's gone over it.
WHAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT ARROW WEIGHT FOR MY SET UP?
)But be aware that the mechanically 'most efficient' arrow might not be the 'best' arrow for you to use. It might be too heavy to give you an acceptable trajectory. I'm not talking flattest trajectory of course, just acceptable. What's acceptable? That's YOUR call.
Some of these nimrods grew up on the 3D course instead of hunting in the woods. Just like on the 3D range, they bank on arrow speed and flat trajectory to bail their sorry butts out when they screw up - probably when taking a shot at significantly longer distance than they should. These folks can't stand the idea that someone else might have the personal discipline to keep their shots within a defined CLOSE distance (rather than surrendering to the urge to be 'successful' and taking poke-n-hope long range shots), and are thus able to make good use of heavier, slower, more efficient arrows. It's a fact that the closer the distance, the less trajectory is an issue.
This isn't an exact quote, but the meaning is still there: "Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from a target and still hit it. Bow hunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss." Keep that little saying in mind and hunting arrow trajectory should never be an issue.
Just my opinion, of course. Calling it like I see it. Any or all of you have my permission to disagree. I know Sylvan will disagree, given my permission or not. I'm all busted up over it too. [8D]
05-20-2008 | 07:54 PM
#87
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
From: Upstate New York
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
Here are just a couple of "professionally" produced bow reports:
http://www.marksoutdoors.com/PDFfiles/MatthewsDrenalin.pdf
http://www.alpinearchery.com/downloads/Alpine_Bow_Report.pdf
I found them with a quick internet search. Bowhunter mag publishes one every month. Go to the newstand and pick one up. Theiy are all more extensive and more accurate testing than anyone here is capable of and they present the kind of data you guys are talking about generating yourself. Try other archery literature too. Go to the library. Anywhere ke and efficiency vs arrow mass data is published and take a look at that too.
Perhaps one of you geniuses can explain why none of these reports support the idea being perpetuated here that there is a point of maximum ke or if you will maximum efficiency and then as you increase the arrow weight it falls off. Please explain whythere is not one single instance where the arrow mass was increased and ke and/or efficiency went down. Why do all the ke and efficiency vs arrow mass graphs show an ever increasing function? And how will you all explain away the bow efficiency equation, I posted earlier, developed, not by me, but by the experts in field that shows quite clearly that ke and efficiency is an increasing function of arrow mass.
Art says go find the point where ke falls back. Well the professional engineers and technicians who produce these reports (and there are hundreds of reports like these) don't find that point. In every single test they report ever increasing ke and efficiency as the mass of the arrow is increased. Every one.
I guess none of these professionals know anything and I should justaccept theamateurish results and analysis I've seen here. Well I'm sorry but that proposition just makes me laugh.
the heavier the arrow then the more energy efficient the bow becomes
That's not my opinion it's along established principle of archery mechanics andthe few internet
nobodies here who say it's not true are just wrong. I will say though, it's kind of amusing to read the lame reasons why they think it's not true.
http://www.marksoutdoors.com/PDFfiles/MatthewsDrenalin.pdf
http://www.alpinearchery.com/downloads/Alpine_Bow_Report.pdf
I found them with a quick internet search. Bowhunter mag publishes one every month. Go to the newstand and pick one up. Theiy are all more extensive and more accurate testing than anyone here is capable of and they present the kind of data you guys are talking about generating yourself. Try other archery literature too. Go to the library. Anywhere ke and efficiency vs arrow mass data is published and take a look at that too.
Perhaps one of you geniuses can explain why none of these reports support the idea being perpetuated here that there is a point of maximum ke or if you will maximum efficiency and then as you increase the arrow weight it falls off. Please explain whythere is not one single instance where the arrow mass was increased and ke and/or efficiency went down. Why do all the ke and efficiency vs arrow mass graphs show an ever increasing function? And how will you all explain away the bow efficiency equation, I posted earlier, developed, not by me, but by the experts in field that shows quite clearly that ke and efficiency is an increasing function of arrow mass.
Art says go find the point where ke falls back. Well the professional engineers and technicians who produce these reports (and there are hundreds of reports like these) don't find that point. In every single test they report ever increasing ke and efficiency as the mass of the arrow is increased. Every one.
I guess none of these professionals know anything and I should justaccept theamateurish results and analysis I've seen here. Well I'm sorry but that proposition just makes me laugh.
the heavier the arrow then the more energy efficient the bow becomes
That's not my opinion it's along established principle of archery mechanics andthe few internet
nobodies here who say it's not true are just wrong. I will say though, it's kind of amusing to read the lame reasons why they think it's not true.
05-20-2008 | 08:05 PM
#88
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,367
Likes: 0
From:
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
Does Not ALWAYS work[8D]
Check out both mine and bigbulls figures
Nothing Lame about actual figures. There are many variables, each bow is different, different cam designs, arrow spine, arrow materials. I think on any bow if you do enough testing you will find a place where a heavier arrow will fail to increase KE.
Everything is not always cut and dried formulas. Both mine and bigbulls figures bear the same finding with the same bow.
That's Good enough for me!
Dan
Check out both mine and bigbulls figures
Nothing Lame about actual figures. There are many variables, each bow is different, different cam designs, arrow spine, arrow materials. I think on any bow if you do enough testing you will find a place where a heavier arrow will fail to increase KE.
Everything is not always cut and dried formulas. Both mine and bigbulls figures bear the same finding with the same bow.
That's Good enough for me!
Dan
05-20-2008 | 08:16 PM
#89
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
From: Upstate New York
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
ORIGINAL: MeanV2
Does Not ALWAYS work[8D]
Check out both mine and bigbulls figures
Dan
Does Not ALWAYS work[8D]
Check out both mine and bigbulls figures
Dan
How come it always works when the professionals do the testing?Hmmmmm?
Nothing Lame about actual figures. There are many variables, each bow is different, different cam designs, arrow spine, arrow materials. I think on any bow if you do enough testing you will find a place where a heavier arrow will fail to increase KE.
Everything is not always cut and dried formulas. Both mine and bigbulls figures bear the same finding with the same bow.
That's Good enough for me!
Everything is not always cut and dried formulas. Both mine and bigbulls figures bear the same finding with the same bow.
That's Good enough for me!
05-20-2008 | 08:33 PM
#90
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,127
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: What arrow mass will achieve tha maximum momentum?
OK - You're right . . . I'm going to start shooting a 2,000 grain arrow at 60 fps. Sylvan - you the man! Why don't you take your entire life savings and start producing 2,000 grain arrows? We will all buy them, now that we are enlightened.