speed vs ke
 

I am sure this has been seen by many, but is a good read if you have not.
http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-Carbon-Arrows/arrow-selection-guide5.htm

RE: speed vs ke
 

Good article. The only factor that was not really addressed in the article is the ability of smaller diameter arrows to penetrate better than fatter arrows. From what I have gathered, arrows like the Axis and A/C Super Slims can penetrate like a standard diameter shaft weighing at least 100 grains more. And still offer the relative benefits of speed offered in a lighter shaft. Have your cake and eat it too? :)

RE: speed vs ke
 

Makes sense for field point tipped arrows but what about broadheads when the shaft is following through a 1"+ hole lubricated by body fluids? I don't buy it. (Even though I am shooting A/C Superslims that gimmick wasn't part of my choice.)

RE: speed vs ke
 

Rob -a large number of elk hunters in this area have gone over to the slim shafts, and claim increased penetration on game. From whatI have heard, the penetration increase has more to do with the thick walls on these skinny shafts; and their ability to resist oscillation when the front of the arrow encounters resistance. Roskoe

RE: speed vs ke
 

I used to not buy into that either, and for the same reason. But Dr. Ashby's arrow lethality studies actually do show increased penetration for arrow shaft diameters that are smaller than broadhead ferrule diameters. I had to eat a little crow over that one.

His work does NOT show enough additional penetration to offset 100 grains difference in weight however.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Thicker walls on carbons and their ability to resist oscillation and there smaller diameter, diffinally out penetrate larger diameter aluminum arrows. I have seen it to may times and know others good bowhunters who know what there talking about say the same thing maybe I should say are studies :eek: and who is Dr. Ashby some one who has wrote his studies on arrow penetration what make him right over others.

RE: speed vs ke
 

His studies are on arrow lethality. Arrow lethality is much more complex than simple penetration, but penetration is obviously a major component of it.

Dr Ashby has done in-depth, detailed, long term arrow lethality studies over a number of years, on the toughest game animals in the world, first in Africa and recently in Australia. He has documented, compared and analyzed actual performance of a wide variety of broadheads and arrow shafts on flesh and bone in field situations.

That's why I give his conclusions a substantially higher score on the credibility scale than I'd give some redneck doing 'penetration tests' on a sunny afternoon in the back yard with a block of foam, tape measure and a cooler of beer. Or the same 'tests' from magazine writers who are trying to appease their advertisers.

I don't put much store in stories from hunters who've probably been into that beer cooler before swapping lies around the campfire either. Hunters lie every bit as much as fishermen, if you hadn't noticed.

I've played this game before. Here's how it goes:

Nimrod shoots a critter with an aluminum arrow and it doesn't get passthrough, probably because they hit a heavy bone. They love to leave that 'bone' part out of the story, because it doesn't make their shooting skills look so good. So they switch to a light, skinny, super spiffy carbon arrow - most often with a hot new high performance bow as well - shoot another critter, miss the heavy bone, and the arrow blows through. Now they say nothing penetrates better than carbon. No matter that the new bow is putting out oodles and gobs more KE. No matter they didn't hit heavy bone. All they report is a passthrough. What BS!

Their heavy, thick old aluminum arrow from their old bow would have done exactly the same with exactly the same shot. Anecdotal evidence like that is practically worthless. If I heard the same story often enough - and I have, so spare me the repeat performance - it qualifies as enough to get me to try it myself. It's not something I'd just believe out of hand though.

Show me the charts and graphs. Show me the raw data of measurements taken from the hundreds of shots that generated those charts and graphs. The data doesn't lie. And Ashby doesn't have any advertisers to keep happy, so there isn't a pre determined bias built into the studies. A few more points in Ashby's favor on the credibility gap.

Anyway, that's who Ashby is. And it's why I give him more credit for being right than anyone YOU can come up with.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Arthur P

I’ll 2nd that!

I have not read all of his work yet,but the stuff I have has been very well done. This is a good read for any bowhunter.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Guess I've got the best of both worlds then with a 500 grain SuperSlim arrow.[8D]

RE: speed vs ke
 

Sounds like something I'd use. ;)

RE: speed vs ke
 

Thing I do know for sure when the carbon arrow came out we had to go to making better 3 D targets and matts because the frist one would not hold them. The carbons are blowing through them. When I jumped on the ban wagon and I started blowing through every thing to game, targets and to concret blocks. I have a friend who shoots with his teeth and can only get about 26 inch draw with his 80 lb bow and has not ever shot through any thing in his life. I talk him into get some carbons back in the 80's he was saying the same things you are and his frist kill was a bull Elk and he blowed through it and now he is blowing through elk and deer almost all of the time and how wouldn't give them up for any thing. I can tell a ton of stories like this. I have bow hunted for over 40 years have used different things some were good and some were not. when good things happen and when I make cleaner kills I stand by them. there are a tons of studies out there and ever one is a little different. I go by what I know as a fact for me by what I seen not what I hear or read and yes even what Arthur P is saying. I know for a fact when I started using the carbon arrows good things started to happen and shooting on different arrows and bows shooting staffs know way. I was getting better penetration on game than when I ever done using aluminums and I have taken hunderds of deer over the years taken elk and bear and now i'm not getting new arrows every 2 are 3 months that I had to do with aluminum arrows because, I shot 50 to 100 time a day every day at one time and alminums where always bent, soft or broken. If they ever come out with somthing better for penetration, last longer and shoot better. I will use it to hunt with I owe it to the game I hunt to use the best thing I know of to help me make cleaner kills.

Use what you want. I will use what works best for me. I think if I told Arthur Py my ice cream was cold he would say it wasn't because of something he has read.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Bowdoc, you've proven yourself to be complete waste of time and effort so I'm not going to get into this with you. All I'm doing is passing along what Ashby has published in his reports. If you don't like it, go argue with him.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Most of the time KE is not a problem with bows today. I'll take a little more speed shooting a lighter arrow, spined correctly, with ample FOC, and my KE will be good to go;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Thats right MeanV2 and I bet your blowing through things too get the exit hole we need for a good blood trial and a quick kills, so I don't know whats Arthur P point. My bow puts out 69 lbs of KE with the lighter carbon arrow. I'm shooting it with pass through on deer, elk or a car door. Like a bowhunter said to me once he was shooting 2219 for KE and when he shot the lighter carbon arrow he was getting almost the same KE as the 2219, because it was a lot faster, so way shoot a arrow that drops a foot at 20 yards and don't last as long as a lighter carbon arrow for hunting

put them down

RE: speed vs ke
 

The POINT is, bowdoc, that not everybody is shooting high poundage, high performance bows. You seem to expect everyone to be using the same stuff you shoot, and it just is not that way. Believe it or not, some people are shooting bows down in the 45-50 pound range! And some people are still using old fashioned recurves and longbows instead of compounds!?! GASP! :eek:

The less power your bow produces, the less you can afford the luxury of being hard headed and ignorant about information pertaining to arrow shaft and broadhead selection, even when that information does not agree with your time worn prejudices. That is especially when that information is as well researched and documented as the work Ashby has done.

I learned about the improved penetration with smaller diameter arrows. Since aluminums are getting hard to find locally anyway, I made a change. Now, one of my favorite arrows is a carbon/glass composite weighing 565 grains. Shoots like a dream out of my 50 pound recurve. Complete passthroughs on deer and wild pigs at a whopping 43 ft lbs. Put that same arrow on my ProTec at 60 pounds and I'm good for anything on this continent.

RE: speed vs ke
 

I'm only shooting 60# and my draw length is only 28" still my setup is producing over 68# of KE with a 340 grain CX Maxima. Yes I blow through everything I've shot with that setup including a 450# Black Bear and a 4X4 Mule Deer at 51 yards. If I shot a recurve I might shoot logs, but there is no need to out of modern day compounds;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

There's no need to shoot knitting needles either.

RE: speed vs ke
 

That's your opinion, the animals I've shot thought they were deadly arrows. O they were!! My point is shooting heavy arrows for pass through penetration on North American game is not necessary with modern compounds. Shooting a stick bow is a different ball game. Even though I use a rangefinder I prefer a lighter, flatter shooting setup to having a couple #'s of KE that I don't need. I shot completely through a 6X6 Bull Elk that was estimated at 900-1000# and was aged at 10.5 years old with a 390 grain arrow so he wasn't a baby;)and that was at 84 yards. I let the experiences I've gained in 40 years of Bowhunting tell me something, and one thing it has told me is that heavy arrows are not necessary in modern compound bows to hunt with. My 60# Allegiance is producing over 68#'s of KE shooting an arrow lighter than 350 grains. If you wanna shoot heavy arrows that's your choice. Thebeautiful thing about Archery and Bowhunting is you canselect your own gear. I just prefer a fast, flat shooting setup most of the time.

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

And all the animals I've killed with my 'logs' knew they were deadly arrows too. Just making the point that disparaging remarks can work both ways.

I'm so proud that your 60# bow is putting out 68# of KE and with arrows lighter than 350 grains. I'm almost impressed. [8D] What you and certain others don't seem to get through your skulls is that not everybody is shooting your bow or standing in your boots when they go hunting. Me, me, me, I, I, I.... It works for ME. I do it this way... So what?

You hunt with arrows so light that it make mes cringe to think of it. I'm sure my arrows are so heavy you wonder how they don't fall to the ground as soon as they leave my bow. Believe me, I keep score when shooting 3D just so I don't have to pull my arrows out of those targets. A 565 grain arrow out a 60 lb bow, driven by a 26" power stroke buries an arrow up pretty good. Not many of us have 33.5" draw lengths though, now do we?

See? I am smart enough to know that I am different than everybody else. Just like you are different from everybody else. Just like bowdoc is different from everybody else. We all have different draw lengths, different bows and, even more importantly, different values.

You've got your way of doing things and, as risky as I think your arrow weights are, more power to ya. I've got my way of doing things. I'm not saying everyone should do it my way, because not everyone is ME. There's a whole lot of room left in the middle between us.

All I'm trying to get people to do is to get educated so they can make smart decisions on arrow setup. And I do want to see them educated with something a little more substantial than 'hunting stories' dealing with one-time incidents. Something like authentic in-depth research.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Arthur P you seem to like to argue or maybe you just keep your feelings on your Elbows:DI used to hunt with a 45# recurve shooting way Heavy arrows. I am sure I could throw something almost the speed of my arrows. It killed Deer fine. Care to venture a guess what my KE was?? All I am saying is that I would rather have more fps with a flatter shooting rig than a few more #'s KE. I am talking about the modern COMPOUND BOW here, not a stick bow. If ANYONE shoots a stick bow then they probably can use the heavier arrow. I doubt the percentage of traditional archers is very big in this day and time.;)

40 years of Bowhunting counts for more than a story about a one time incident.;)

RE: speed vs ke
 

In those 40 years I've killed deer with several type bows, arrows, and broadheads. My draw is only 28" I'd say that's average to short. Even though yours is on the very short side. Maybe you do need Heavy arrows;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

I know what you're talking. Modern compound, blah, blah, blah... You are talking about a specific type of bow at a specific power level.

What about the guy who wanders into the local box store and heads out to hunt with an inexpensive entry level round wheel, 50 pound PSE? What about a 10 year old kid going out to hunt with the 40 pound compound his dad just set him up with? They are both proud owners of brand new, modern compounds aren't they? Only two teensie weensie differences between their modern compounds and yours. Power and performance level.

Say these folks saw your post about blowing through elk with an arrow that weighed less than 350 grains. Suppose they decided that would be perfect for them as well and they went and set themselves up with arrows in that weight range. Would you feel comfortable with that, knowing their bows are much less powerful than the setup you used to perform such magic?

Guys like you worry me. You hardly ever think outside your own little world. And you get all bent out of shape whenever anyone has the audacity to disagree with you and say there is another way to look at things. And heaven forbid that anyone should blatantly say out loud, in front of God and everybody, that your way is dead wrong for a whole bunch of folks that are not using bows with the latest performance technology.

I know my way will work on ANY bow of legal hunting weight. Your way is pretty exclusive only to bows with a pretty high minimum performance level. Once you admit to that, maybe we've made some progress.

RE: speed vs ke
 

What percentage of Archers on here do you think you are talking to? Blah, blah, blah;)I've got a brick wall you can argue with, it might end up a Draw:D

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

In the 43 year i have hunted I have shot about evey kind of bow and arrows out there for hunting and target. Shot pro at 21 and had a 300 avreage indoor and about 285 indoors average bare bow with a 65 lb recurve hunting bo and had hunted a lot of states for deer,bear and elk. I never shot 45 lbs for hunting. I have shot 45 lbs for target with a clicker. All the bowhunters back then that i hunted with and shot target with shot 50 to 65 lb bows for hunting. I have shot wood, fiberglass, alunminus and carbon arrows. Todays compounds are great with the arrows we use for hunting today. I don't ever hear the old stories like back then about gun hunter are a farmer finding deer with a arrow sticking out of it most of the time I think some where laying about it to try to make bowhunters look bad to others. They are also more educated about bowhunting today. I can say it's not my arrow because mine always pass through and has my name on it. I would always get calls from bowhunters about 3 to 4 nights the week to go out and try to help find there deer. I knew a lot of bowhunter and some I didn't know, but knew me. It still happen today some times , but now it's only two are three times a year, gun hunters lose them too. Now days it not as near as much as back then with recurve bow and the older arrows we used. We owe it to the game to use better bows and better arrows that we have now days. Thats way I always say I will never look back. We have come a long way to better are sport. I have seen kids and some women that shoot lighter poundage pass throughs deer. My son started with 45 lb compound at 12 and had lot of pass through and that wasn't with a 600 grain arrow but with cut on impact broad heads on his arrows. He shoots 60 to 65 Lb now he is 41 years old. Archery has been my life for over 40 years, I have made money at it shooting and selling and have taken a lots of food with it to. I wouldn't know how to live with out it.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Arthur P don't be misquotin me!;)Under 350 grains are my light arrows. On Elk I use my Heavy arrows 390 to 420 grain arrows. Case in point 390 grains.
I take a lot of pains to make sure my arrows are spined correctly, have proper FOC, and are flying Straight! That's the way you really get penetration:D

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

390 grain arrows are still 10 grains lighter than I'd even use on a mangey skunk. [:'(];)

Oh please! Is that not a given?? That is - well, should be, as I'll get to in a moment - standard operating procedure no matter what weight arrows you use.

Here we are again though with the tunnel vision and not seeing the whole picture. We cannot forget the masses who wouldn't know a cable yoke from a set screw when it comes to properly tuning a bow and have absolutely no clue what tuning an arrow means. Oh, they can take their bows to the shop to get them 'tuned'. Problem is, we know how much THAT is worth when the person who tunes the bow is not the same person that will be shooting it. Even if these tuning-challenged folks were to shoot the same setup you use, THINK.... If they don't have a clue on how to tune their equipment for the optimal performance YOU demand, how can you possibly expect them to have the results you get with ultralight arrows?

Can't you see the problem I have with making a blanket statement saying light arrows work with no qualifications? I should think it's so obvious I wouldn't have to slap you upside the head like this to make you see it!

I've long been a proponent of a 400 grain legal minimum arrow weight for hunting. Nothing I've seen of late has caused my opinion to shift one iota.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Next time I have a question about Arrow setup I'll PM Ya Arty P;)Not!!:D
If you had seen and worked on as many setups as I have you would know nothing is a given to the biggest percentage[8D]

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Don't even want my advice on arrow setups. Ah, now you're breakin' my heart, dude.:D Don't worry. I won't be asking you for advice either. Still might buy one of your gizmos someday, so you haven't ticked me off that bad yet. ;)

If you know that nothing is a given when talking about the biggest percentage, then what's so hard about admitting ultralight arrows are not a good choice for everyone? You SEE the kind of stuff they use. You KNOW the condition it's in.

Left handed launcher rest with worn out bearings, mounted from the front side of the bow with the prongs pointed back at the shooter? Yeah, I've seen that guy! Or how 'bout the one who shows up to hunt with a bow that's got dirt dauber nests inside the cam cutouts and is covered in dust and cobwebs? Or the one who has 6 arrows in his quiver, all different brands, different spines and wearing different broadheads?

And these are the folks you want to encourage to use ultra light arrows? That's what you're doing every time you say "it works for me" without bringing in all the prerequisites involved in the process.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Arthur kindly show me where I said light arrows are for everyone;)If I shot a Recurve or a Martmart bow I would add some weight to my arrows. Then again there is a vast majority of Bowhunters out there today shooting top notch equipment that do Not require 500 grain arrows to get plenty of penetration. Shoot what you like but don't tell those who prefer lighter arrows thatthey can't get adequate penetration, and by the way I wouldn't waste any arrow on a Mangy Skunk, Heavy or Light:DMaybe all those years instead of bowhunting and trying different setups I should have been reading some X perts advice[8D]

The Cob Web bowhunters you are talking about are not on HNI reading;)Honestly it wouldn't make any difference what weight arrows they are shooting unless they weighed as much as my Pickup:eek:

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

"I let the experiences I've gained in 40 years of Bowhunting tell me something, and one thing it has told me is that heavy arrows are not necessary in modern compound bows to hunt with."

"If I shot a recurve I might shoot logs, but there is no need to out of modern day compounds."

" Most of the time KE is not a problem with bows today."

Not a single mention about tuning, poundage, performance, or any of that other icky stuff until much later. Just if you have a modern compound, then you're good to go. Kind of irresponsible of you, IMO.

There is a vast majority of bowhunters out there today shooting top notch equipment but also have absolutely NO CLUE how to tune them in order get all the performance out of those bows they spent so much money for. You know this, so quit playing stupid.

And I beg to differ with you on what percentage of bowhunters are shooting top notch equipment in the first place. Judging by the people who've come through the gate at our archery range and in the woods, it's nowhere near a majority, I assure you.

I'd also be willing to wager there are more cobweb hunters lurking around in the shadows reading these forums than you realize.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Have at this Brick Wall a while I like Bowdoc am giving up. I am not wasting anymore of my time typing replies to you. You win!! I am sure you know much more, have hunted much more, have shot more setups, killed many more animals, and read much more than I have;)

Again you Win!!

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

There are lot of defferent kinds of people in this world as in bowhunting. There are bowhunters who think they know every thing and bowhunters that do. Bowhunters that believe every thing they read even if it dosn't work for them are others and bowhunter that try every thing and use what works best for them. There are bowhunters out there who mislead others to get them use what they use are trying to make them think they know it all. There are deer hunters that use a bow just to kill a deer and there are real bowhunters. It up to the real bowhunters to educate the ones that don't know through TV, pro shops, manufactors and the pros. I have seen a lot of things on here and lot of veiws and some times thats what gets me so upset. I have been called a target shooter before because I shoot year round, but I'm a real bowhunter and love my sport. All I do is take it to the limit. You owe it to your game you hunt to be the best you can be and use the best bows and arrows that work for you to make cleanest kills not what some one that trying to make you believe is the best for you because of some thing he has read or thinks.

Put them down

RE: speed vs ke
 

I don't know about that. I've seen absolute garbage being paraded on TV shows. They don't give a rip about anything the sponsors don't pay them to put on the air.

Pro shops? There are some excellent ones, but most aren't even remotely worthy of the name. Call 'em bow stores, if you will, but real pro shops are exceedingly rare. If you find a good one, you're in business. If you have to deal with a bow store, don't believe even half of what they tell you.

Manufacturers? They're mostly - with a couple of notable exceptions - run by bean counters now instead of archers and bowhunters, and they don't give a rip about anything but profits. At this point in history, speed sells.

The pros don't give a rip about anything the manufacturers don't pay them to use and sell. So don't send folks off down that fairy tale path.

Yeah, I've been in archery and bowhunting plenty long enough to have gotten exceedingly cynical about motives. I've watched bowhunters' attitudes turn from doing "what's good for the sport" to "I'm doing what's right for ME."

Absolutely. One of the few things you've said that I completely agree with.

What I can't figure out is why you light arrow freaks get all hot and bothered, and take it as a personal insult when people talk about more conservative, alternate choices in arrow weight and setup.

I definitely warn people off what they read about light arrows, every chance I get. Like I said earlier, I've been a long time advocate of a 400 grain minimum legal arrow weight for hunting, and I am going to continue on that course.

Been real nice talking with you two. I think I'll go have the dentist to give me a root canal so I can finish off my weekend on a high note. [8D]

RE: speed vs ke
 

RockSlinger, this article brings out an issue that bothers me. It quotes KE figures as if there is a study demonstrating that KE is important when shooting animals. Well, the only study that addresses KE on live animals shows no correlation between KE and penetration.

I've noticed that a lot of people openly don't believe Ashby's study, but I have to wonder why. I look at his methods for conducting the study. I see the results, the charts and the conclusions and I just don't see how anyone can say it's flawed. But the real point is, no one else has done this. There are no other studies on this. How can people promote KE as important for penetration, when there is no study on live animals that supports their view.

Another point - poor penetration out of a recurve is extremely common - even with heavy arrows. The reason is quite obvious to those who have tuned a lot of traditional bows. Spine is critical on these bows - and I mean absolutely critical. Proper arrow flight is difficult for many to acheive and most don't even know the proper way to go about it. Add in the fact that even if you got it right, you could overdraw in a hunting situation, and cause less than ideal arrow flight. When an arrow that is not flying straight, hits an animal, the energy is easily deflected and adsorbed by the side of the arrow instead of the tip. This is also why really high FOCs work so well. Years ago, almost no one shot anything over 15%.

Anyway, my opinion is that articles like this are at best, completely misleading.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Good answer Art, I couldn't have siad it mo-betta... I too have seen some of the worst on bowhunting shows, but then again, if your ignorant of the sport, you might think those yoyo's know it all..:D

You can now change your signature... :D

RE: speed vs ke
 

Oh.... alright. ;)

RE: speed vs ke
 

Thanks guys There was two of us on here the had over 80 year combined experence and success. I heard once you can't argure with success, but I was wrong there are some that do

RE: speed vs ke
 

Well, I think mine and Arthur's adds up to about 90 years - does that mean we win?

Personally, I don't care if you have 300 years experience. Ashby practically does this as a job. More importantly, he carefully records setups, penetration and results. Then, he plots the data and comes up with conclusions based on science, not off the top-of-his-head feelings. A study like his trumps anecdotal heresay - everytime. Success can be acheived with less than ideal setups on small game like whitetails, especially when you don't hit major bones. No one has ever said you can't be successful with light-arrow setups. It's just that heavy-arrow, high-FOC setups have proven to penetrate better in more situations. They are also much more forgiving with drive-by bowhunters who don't have a clue. So yes, we can argue with success.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Throw in my 46 years and we are way out in front:D

RE: speed vs ke
 

Been out of town (hunting:)) the past four days. This little issue really took on a life of its own here. I personally don't question the trend for heavier shafts to out penetrate lighter shafts, all other thing being equal. So I guess I believe the general concepts put forth by Dr. Ashby. However, there is still a balance between speed and penetration when considering arrow weight.

For instance, I have thought about using very light 3D shafts for antelope hunting. I'm sure they would penetrate this light boned animal adequately, and the flatter trajectory could be a benefit on the long range shots sometimes encountered. However, archery elk season coincides with archery antelope; and I sure don't want to risk a light arrow on an angle shot at a 900 lb. bull elk. Now that I have a second bow, might think about setting up one of them for elk and one for antelope.

But even for elk hunting, the small diameter shafts - particularly the A/C Super Slims and the Axis FMJ - offer a medium weight arrow with serious penetration.