RE: speed vs ke
 

I agree!! I never said Light arrows are the end all only way to hunt, but are a very good option for Lots of archers going after North American Game. I have hunted with everything from carbons weighing around 325 grains to 2419's that I don't remember what they weighed, let's just say they were Heavy;)Trouble is with most Bowhunters their way is the only way to do anything, and the bottom line is 500 grain arrows are just not necessary to hunt most Game I have hunted. Would they work? Yep I'm sure they would, but at the the expense of making my trajectory much more arched and for an advantage that I don't need. I prefer a fast, flat shooting arrow that I know from my40 years experiencewill get the job done once it arrives at the spot. I really don't care how much dirt I kill on the other side;)If you feel like you need Heavy Arrows toGit-R-Done or you are Hunting some Big Dude then by allmeans go ahead. We each buyour own arrows so we can choose what we want:D

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Wow! Glad I actually had hunting to do this weekend to try and add to my measlie 24 years. You can put me in the middle-of-the-road crowd on this one. There's no doubt that a heavier arrow out penetrates a light one given equal energy behind them. And, I don't think that anyone will argue that in most instances a lighter, faster arrow may be adequate on easily to moderatly tough to penetrate game (anything in North America with the possible exception of bison and mt. goats). My stance is to shoot the heaviest arrow that I can get moderately flat tragectory out of with the best accuracy. For my set-up that just happens to be a 500 grain arrow at 265 fps. It's not a log and it's not a scream machine but it does hit exactly where I point it and I have utter confidence that it's going through whatever I hit when it gets there, and that's what matters.

RE: speed vs ke
 

If you can afford the expense to maintain two different setups for two different species, and have the time to keep your shooting sharp with both of them at all times, that's fine. I think I'd just do one bow with the medium weight arrows you describe. Then I'd invest half the money it'd take to get that second bow and buy a good range finder.

Use the rangefinder on those longer shots at antelope. When you know the exact yardage, that bit of flatter trajectory won't be needed, and you'll have extra penetration potential in case something goes wrong and the arrow doesn't hit exactly where you intend.

RE: speed vs ke
 

There seems to be an overwhelming perception that light arrows are more accurate. They make it easier to kill small animals, far away. I believe it's the opposite, especially with broadhead tipped arrows. Wind has a greater chance to change the light arrow's course. Light arrows lose energy much faster at longer distances, and the animal is more likely to take a step causing a heavy-bone hit.

Personally, I wouldn't hunt an antelope without a rangefinder. If I know the distance, I'm positive I'm more accurate with my heavy arrows. I frequently practice with broadheads at 60-80 yards and I've verified that my extreme FOC, 650 grain arrows group much tighter for me. At 40 yards on live animals, no arrow overcomes reaction time, or inadvertent steps. If I make a good shot, I don't care if my arrow has way more energy than it needs. If the animal takes a step and I hit the shoulder or other heavy bone (antelopes have those), then I have a better chance of penetration to the kill zone.

My philosophy is to build my arrow to be lethal with my bad hits on whatever game I'm hunting. Everything works on good hits (well, almost everything). As a side benefit, my arrows give me more forgiveness and stability, enabling me to avoid more of those off-hits. Of course, my methods only work for those willing to do what it takes to know the yardage before they shoot. Flat trajectories are a distinct advantage to those who do not know the distance and it's over 30 yards - that doesn't describe my type of hunting.

RE: speed vs ke
 

I have a Lieca rangefinder, and learned the hard way to keep it around my neck when bowhunting. I wouldn't have even attempted some of the longer shots I have taken at antelope without it. And even when using it, you range the animal - or a spot on the ground near the animal - and then, by the time you get an arrow nocked and drawn back, the 'lope has sometimes moved a little. But you're right - the rangefinder somewhat minimizes the need for light fast arrows. I wonder how many 3D shooters would use the real light shafts if rangefinders were allowed in this sport?

RE: speed vs ke
 

I like to put my pin on a deer or elk and only see a hole open up and no arrow sticking out. I get this with my set up. I have shot heavy arrows out of recurves and compounds and taken lot of game and didn't get this all the time like I doing now,so I will stay with what Im shooting. I have had a couple of times I hit shoulder blades, but I'm a good shot and it dosn't happen much, but the times it did the light carbon shot through the paddle bone once with a complet pass though at about 30 yards and once with all the arrow going through but about 4 inch that broke off inside the buck a 300 lb + Iowa buck when he took off running. Shot him at about 10 yards. Once a shot a 140 incher at 30 yards along a high ditch passed through him and I seen a small 6 point run up and was standing on the other side of the ditch with my arrow stuck out of him just below his neck on the inside of his shoulder . I tought what the $%^ because I see just seen the big one drop. When I shot the 140 inch I didn't know there was a small buck standing in the bottom of the ditch about 10 yards down were I couldn't see him and when my arrow passed through the 140 incher it hit the small buck and got about 10 to 12 inch penetratoin on the small buck, so I had a friend use his tag on the small buck when we found him. Thing like this way I believe in the carbons, good poundage and fast hard shooting bows. I have tryed some different broadheads and didn't get what I want in a penetration and went back to my old set up. When the newer carbon like the Gold tip came out I think I lost some penetration, but now we have arrow like the axis thicker walls and small around and penetration is great on the five deer I have taken with them so far. Easton staff and I taked about this years ago at a archery show and they were saying the same thing I have and now they have the axis arrow and what are they saying about it

Put them down

RE: speed vs ke
 

I use a 410gr arrow for 3d out of a 60lb Commander at 28" draw, This weight includes a 175gr screw in point:D

I think some shooters in senior pro are not going to like me next year[8D]:);):D

RE: speed vs ke
 

Then why don't you quit messing around? I know the easiest way in the world to accomplish that exact task. Buy a rifle and have done with it. :eek:

Really, I shouldn't leave you hanging like that, so here's a recommendation for you. 7mm Remington mag. With 170 grain bullets it'd be good for just about anything in the lower 48. That'd give you approximately 2953 fps with 3293 ft lbs of energy.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Arthur P
Don't you hunt your always on here. The rut on here and I'm out hunting most of the day only time I find to get on here is between morning hunt and the evening hunt and because I'm retired. I hope you don't brake the wall with your hard head

RE: speed vs ke
 

Oh, I do quite a number of things in my retirement. I check in frequently during my rest periods.

RE: speed vs ke
 

That weight includes a 175 grain field point? Wow! What's the FOC on that arrow - like 30%?

RE: speed vs ke
 

No the FOC is around 25% and boy do these arrows fly nice and really slam into the target:D

I am just gonna have to make sure I soap my arrows real well in case I have to pull them

RE: speed vs ke
 

Gee after reading all these replies I can't believe I've killed over 100 animals in 40 years. My arrows never weighed any where near 600 grains and my FOC has always been 12% to 16%, but then I always heard moderation in all things is better. You'd think this thread was about African Game. Preparing for Bad shots? My Uncle always said as your faith be so shall it be unto you. You Boys are ready!!;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Gee Dan is that all:D

I shot more than that in one day when I was a Pro hunter:);)but I did cheat I was using a bang stick:D

RE: speed vs ke
 

I guess I fall in the boring "moderation" category. Going to extremes in either direction usually spells trouble for most bowhunters, myself included. Generally, once things get flying right, the experimentation stops.:D

RE: speed vs ke
 

Well you might have killed in the outback, but all I've ever seen you kill is TIME.:D. And you do that well..[8D][8D][8D]

RE: speed vs ke
 

Like yourself, I haven't killed that many animals either. That is why I rely on guys like Ashby who not only have many times that number of kills, but have recorded detailed data about the kills, studied it and scientifically analyzed it.

Several of us have been saying this for years and I don't expect any of the speed merchants will ever get it, but here it is again. Our recommendations are for the average hunter, not the non-typical guy who has put tons of time into archery, learning all there is, and never having a bad shot on an animal. Your experiences and abilities are not held by the average bowhunter. The average bowhunter, can't tune his bow, can't build a proper arrow, doesn't practice much, often makes bad judgements and even worse shots. If this typical hunter would put on a heavier arrow, with a higher FOC, his success rate would go up. The arrow would be more stable, more forgiving of poor form and more deadly when he hits the shoulder - as he will frequently.

Believe it or not, a guy with a lot of experience, like myself, also benefits greatly by these attributes. Only guys who are perfect, and world-class archers will find no benefit - unless they decide to hunt big game, somehow hit a bigger twig while shooting or an animal moves unexpectantly and they hit that heavy bone.

Speed sells. Manufacturers promote it, reps promote it, the whole industry is geared to chasing it. You see, if people are convinced it's the best way to get game, they will always buy the new product that gives a bit more of it. Chasing those numbers are very profitable for the industry and it is well engrained in the minds of many. Their marketing is very effective and difficult to overcome. A guy like Ashby comes out with the most profound studies in ever in bowhunting and they never make it to the main bowhunting magazines - ever wonder why?

RE: speed vs ke
 

Yeah and your Typical weekend warrior Bowhunter buys his arrows at Mart, Mart or a box store that has the special lightweight carbon arrows. Face it if you don't take time to set either a light or heavy arrow setup properly it will not perform as intended. I personally like my 350 to 400 grain arrow setups. I have shot heavy arrow setups in the past 40 years and saw nodistinct advantageI need.:DI get more than adequate penetration on all the animals I have shot, and really could care less how bad I wound the dirt on the other side. On the other hands if anyone wants to use sucker rods for arrows and hatchets for broadheads thats their choice. Dirt can be a real trophy and a Bad shot is still a bad shot.;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Light arrow not tuned properly vs heavy arrow not tuned properly.... Neither will perform as intended, but which has the better chance of achieving adequate penetration to make a kill? The heavier arrow, of course. IMO, anything that gives the weekend warrior bowhunter a better chance of making a kill vs wounding and losing an animal, and decreasing bowhunting's overall wound/loss ratio, is a good thing. That is why I push the idea of establishing a minimum legal arrow weight of 400 grains. And I admit that is a solid 50 grains lighter than I'd like to see.

I was going to mention your product and my suspicion about your motives on pushing light arrow setups so hard, but I scanned the sponsors list and noticed you aren't on it.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Like I said, we're not referring to you. If the industry geared itself towards the heavier arrows with higher FOC, then the walmart arrows would be stiff enough to shoot a heavier head and the charts would show the spines for heavier heads and the stores wouldn't be stocked to the ceiling with 75 and 100 grain heads. The unprepared average bowhunter, wouldn't miss the mark by as much and their success rate would go up. Guys like you can try all you want to convince people that speed is better, and I will continue to put forth the argument that it is no advantage except to those who will not bother to know the distance, and even then, only on longer range shots - the ones they shouldn't even be taking. In every single other aspect of bowhunting, higher weight and very high FOC is a distinct advantage.

RE: speed vs ke
 

You have so much experience you tell me. I've had guys come in the shop shooting 2219's, 2317's that were practically hitting the target sideways. I doubt performance would differ if the arrow weighed 100 grains less. Arthur how many animals have you shot with arrows weighing less than 400 grains?;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

This deer was smoked with a 285 grain total weight arrow at 350+ fps. I think I spent an entire summer bickering with these guys about this very topic. These lamebrainskept insisting that my arrow was gonna bounce off. LOL Well.... It didn't.

MeanV, you're wasting your time. You're not gonna change their mind. You could post 300 pictures of dead deer killed with 250 grain arrows, and Artie would still bedrinking his Dr. Ashby-flavored Kool Aid, and bashing you for not lobbing a six pound arrow at wild game.

RE: speed vs ke
 

I know what you mean!!:DThe Guys in New Mexico gave me a lot of raze, Elk hunting with 390 grain arrows, but I was laughing last after a pass through on a 300+ 6X6 Bull;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

400 grian arrow limit would take out a lot of women and kids who hunt are make them shoot a over spined arrow that wouldn't fly good, so they could make a bad hit are the arrow hit side ways. Once are state tryed to do this and we had them come over to the shop for a meeting. We had a kid shooting a 35 lb compound shoot over the .chronograph and let them figered out his KE with a 1816 arrow with 100 grain point and than the owner of the shop shot his 45 lb recurve over it with a longer draw and 2016 with 125 gain point and guess what the kid was putting out as much or more KE than the recurve was. Are DNR drop it like a rock. because if they done that they would need to put a weight limit of at least 50 lbs on a recurve bows too to be fair, so they dropped it and they said they havn't had any problems with it any way. I just seen where a 7 year old boy killed his first doe in the paper a very happy kid and more so a very happy father you would take this away from this kid the right to hunt because I bet he wasn't shooting a 400 grian arrow.

Put them down

RE: speed vs ke
 

here the link to the paper with a picture of the 7 year old boy and his dad
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/sports/outdoors/

RE: speed vs ke
 

It's just darn hard to find a 400 grain+ arrow/broadhead combo spined to my setup unless I go aluminum. If manufacturers start making heavier arrows that are spined correctly for short draw length, low draw weight shooters, I'll use it. Until then, a 400 grain weight limit is neither fair nor feasible. Even 350grains is a little tough to do.

RE: speed vs ke
 

I think it's great that you can hunt deer with a bow and you have plenty of bow and arrow to take deer with. Some people think you should shoot what they shoot and if you don't you shouldn't be hunting deer. Don't let them get to you. There are a tons of bowhunters out there that are making them wrong day after day, deer after deer and think you have the right to hunt.

Good luck
Put them down

RE: speed vs ke
 

It's not difficult at all. Put 250-300 grains on the tip and you'll easily get to 400 grains with the proper spined arrow. Even young children can easily shoot 400+ grains on a properly spined arrow. Aluminum is not necessary. In fact, I prefer carbon in order to get the extreme FOC that works so well. No matter what your draw length or draw weight, by adjusting arrow length and tip weight on a stiffer than normal spine, you can get there and well beyond. There are many ways to get this much weight on the tip with average broadheads. You can add weighted inserts, insert adapters or you can even add your own weight to an insert that has a design that doesn't allow the others.

Unlike many here, I've hunted with everything from 300 grain arrows to 900 grain arrows out of my compound. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, the heavier, extreme FOC arrows are more accurate, more forgiving, more stable and penetrate better when the penetration is needed. The speed loving crowd thinks the lighter, lower FOC arrows penetrate better. They think the lighter, lower FOC arrows are more stable. They think the lighter, lower FOC arrows are more forgiving. I think they are completely wrong. The fact that deer can be killed with light, low FOC arrows does not in any way demonstrate that they work better. It only demonstrates that they can work in at least some situations. It also demonstrates that the people selling speed have done their job very well.

RE: speed vs ke
 

That much weight your arrow will drop like a rock out of lighter poundage. It have shot arrows from 600 to 350 grains too and i will shoot the 10 to 15 % FOC it works a lot better, if heavy tip were more accurate you see target shooter use them this way, but you don't I have shot a lots of target with 2512s line cutters with 190 to 200 grain tips to get them to shoot out of 60 lbs Ok indoors, but would suck out doors because they never did fly that great anyway to heavy to shot out doors and to big around pick up to much air on longer shots and drift for hunting it would be the same way you would have a inch between you 20 and 30 yard pins making yardage to critical for a hunting bow set up you could be 1 or 2 yards off and you will have a bad hit. Doegirl75 your set up is ok I would take a good hit any day over a heavy arrow nose dropping to much and making a bad hit. If you little arrows had a 300 grain points it would hit side ways or the nock may hit the deer first. "Just kidding"

Put them down
RE: speed vs ke - 11/7/2007 3:22:25 PM showPicture("11/7/2007 3:22:25 PM",0,0,0,2421867,22)

RE: speed vs ke
 

Amen to that... I'll stick with my little543 grain 21 % FOC. You can't beat a dead horse! To each his own, you can't make the light headed speed demons ever believe weight vs speed! I call it due to lack of experience.!!!!

RE: speed vs ke
 

I'd be more likely to call it due to ignorance. Not a one of these guys arguing against it has ever tried extreme FOC. They choose to ignore and berate anything and everything that doesn't fall neatly into their narrow vision, rather than experiment and learn.

What people like bowdoc, quicksilver and MeanV can't seem to understand is there are a great many bowhunters who use lighter draw weights and shorter draw lengths, so they cannot generate the extremely high energy levels these speed freaks are using to achieve the results they get with their ultralight arrows. They have to shoot a 350 grain arrow at 300 fps for 70 fpe just to get the same penetration potential of a primitive hunter using a 700 grain arrow from a selfbow at 150 fps and a mere 35 fpe.

Arrow weight goes a long, long way toward making up for a lack of energy, and the heavy arrow does a MUCH better job of retaining that penetration potential downrange - where the deer is standing.

Doegirl, 400 grains certainly is NOT unreasonable and, like Straightarrow said, it's very easy to make up a carbon arrow that'd work perfectly for you. Putting extra weight up front, by switching out the aluminum inserts for brass, will allow you to use a heavier, stiffer spined arrow with your current broadheads. It will open up a whole new class of arrow shafts you can choose from. And you will get a more effective, better penetrating arrow for you to hunt with.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Doegirl, I hate to see you receive so much misinformation, so I'm going to explain why the heavier, higher FOC does not work the way others would have you believe.

First, all arrows, whether 300 gr, 600 gr or 1000 gr, drop at the exact same rate. Gravity determines this. The rate is 32'/sec/sec. The only thing that affects this drop rate is air resistance. The amount of resistance is dependent on things like surface area and surface friction. The difference in these for different arrow designs is negligible at typical hunting distances. Therefore, the 32'/sec/sec works just fine for figuring drop. The other variables are the speed of the arrow and the distance of the target. All together, these give you the total drop - nothing else. It doesn't matter one bit if the weight is on the tip or in the middle, a 400 grain arrow will drop the same amount at a given target at a given speed. I can say this with confidence because of two things. One is the laws of physics and two, I've tested this in the field. "Nose dropping" because of heavy tips is a myth perpetuated by those who don't know better.

If you shoot a 3 pin sight and set them at 15, 20 and 25 yards, you will hit exactly where you should as long as you know the yardage before you shoot and don't extend your range much past 25 yards. Penetration will be better for two reasons. First, heavier arrows contain more momentum and retain more energy downrange and two, extreme FOC arrows are proven to penetrate animals better. It's especially important for those with shorter draw lengths and lower draw weights to use the heavier, higher FOC arrows, because they give you advantages that your draw weight and draw length take away.

RE: speed vs ke
 

Hate to break this too ya guys specially after all the typing you have done but I designed Jennifer (Doegirl) a arrow last night and pm'd it to her.

410gr total weight with a 25.3 FOC and spined perfectly for her set up.;)

I just know those babies are gonna fly real good for her.:):D

RE: speed vs ke
 

well, air resistance isn't the only thing. the numbers you gave deal w/ the force of gravity at sea level. at 10,000 ft not only is drag reduced, but so is gravity.

RE: speed vs ke
 

But in a scientific comparison amongst arrows it can be discluded because it's the same for them all. You can't scientifically compare one at sea level with another at 10K'. Another factor in favor of Artie's arguement that personal observations/experiences are less valid than a scientific study.

RE: speed vs ke
 

When it comes to experience, I doubt any of you can put me to shame. I have killed several different species with arrows weighing 330 grains to 600+ grains and setup properly they will all work on Big Game. Extreme FOC is NOTa must and neither is 500 grain arrows. I like my Foc between 12% and 18% for broadheads that works for me and that's what matters. Just because you like Cherry KoolAid don't tell people it's the only flavor that will quinch your thrist. Some of you guys take hard-headedness to a new level. Enjoy your Cherry KoolAid!!;)

Dan

RE: speed vs ke
 

Oh but wait, MeanV... You said you are getting 68ft lbs of energy earlier. You're putting more KE into that 330 grain deer killing arrow than Fred Bear had with his 75 lb recurve and 1200 grain arrows to bring down an African elephant! Wouldn't it be embarrasing if you didn't blow through a puny little whitetail with enough energy to kill an elephant?

There's the crux of my problem with you speed guys. You go spouting off about how ultralight arrows work fine for you, but you rarely, if ever, give details about your setup. Until someone calls you out and forces you to, that is.

Just as point of record, is there a minimum energy level you would draw a line at, and say that people should go heavier with arrow weight at that point? Animal size and toughness...

You've already said you go heavier for elk, so you have already admitted that ultralight arrows do not cover the whole spectrum of big game. Now you come back and contradict yourself by saying:

So... Which is it? At least keep your posts consistent and quit trying to confuse the issue.

RE: speed vs ke
 

I call it due to lack of experience.!!!! Most people will tell you I have forgotton more about archery than most will ever know. 40 years carrying a pro card being on two different arrow companies shooting staff and 4 different bow company staff over the years. have shot perfect scores in target and have taken 100's of large game and have taken a lot P&Y class game. I got payed for my infomatoin on tunning bows and arrows and hunting info. at pro shops and archery shows for years and I have got to travel all over this great land with my bow in hand, but I guess I don't have the experience like you guys:( talk about hard heads and I'm not going to set a bow up your way been there and have done that before and it didn't work as good as my set up now Its my right to hunt the way that I am now to make the cleanest kills I have ever make on game with pass throughs and shooting the lights out at out to 50 yards with my broadheads, pass through are pass throughs if the arrow wieghs 600 or 300 grains I don't think game will measure the wieght of the arrow as it going through them. I owe it to myself and the game I hunt to be at my best. I did shoot well with heavier arrows and points , but my set up now is doing a lot's better job now for me, on the game I hunt and for the good of bowhunting. Do what you want, but don't try to make other do it your way because you think your right and what to limit the ones that don't are can't do it your way for bowhunting, are try to make them shoot a sloppy set up, so they can make them get a bad hit on some thing are take the fun out of hunting for them. Doegril set up is just fine for hunting I hope she kill a world record class buck with her 410 grain arrow and set up. I'm sure it woun't bounce off him and will do a great job on him.

By the way Auther Fred told me once he would never shoot a elephant agian they had to follow it for days before it died. Before he passed on he had told me about lots of stories of things that they had to edited on his films

RE: speed vs ke
 

Yes, I'll give the extreme FOC setup a try sometime this season. Granted, I'm a little skeptical, since it flies against almost every conventional standard of what's a proper hunting arrow. I guess the worst thing that could happen is that I don't like it.

RE: speed vs ke
 

If I ever forget as much as you have, someone shoot me - please!!