Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
12-19-2002, 05:53 AM
#11
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
Well, I will definitely say one thing....this thread has definitely made it obvious that each of us has a different definition of these descriptive terms.
My opinion:
I have always only considered the use of three terms when describing the "feel" of any given bow during the shooting process....
Recoil, Vibration and Noise. "Handshock" has always seemed to be the feeling in my hand that was the result of both the bow's level of vibration and recoil. In my view the terms "vibration" and "recoil" are the causes and "handshock" is the result.
Vibration is more of a long duration occuring most notably during the end of the shooting process. It is that long, felt, "buzz" in the riser that normally comes from an excessive amount of energy being absorbed by the bow.
My definition of recoil is as follows..... It is the result of the limbs coming back to their brace position. The more forward facing the limbs then the more recoil there is in any given bow...when all else is equal. Adding significant weight to the arrow or reducing draw weight can lower the amount of recoil that any given bow produces because the limbs aren't reacting as fast or with as much pressure onto the bow. Other factors such as the cam style play a part in determining the type of recoil that is felt but I believe it to be the limbs (their construction and design) that have the most to do with the level of recoil that any given bow produces.
I will respectfully disagree with one particular statement that Stealth made regarding this matter....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So when I read "Bow "A" has a lot of recoil or shock" to ME this means he doesn't have it balanced for HIM/HER. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I think that certain bows, regardless of setup, possess more inherent recoil than others. This is determined by the design of the bow itself not any accessories that are installed. Ofcourse, accessories can help in this regard but they do not solely determine the bow's felt level of recoil.
Excellent discussion by the way...
Edited by - PABowhntr on 12/19/2002 06:55:46
My opinion:
I have always only considered the use of three terms when describing the "feel" of any given bow during the shooting process....
Recoil, Vibration and Noise. "Handshock" has always seemed to be the feeling in my hand that was the result of both the bow's level of vibration and recoil. In my view the terms "vibration" and "recoil" are the causes and "handshock" is the result.
Vibration is more of a long duration occuring most notably during the end of the shooting process. It is that long, felt, "buzz" in the riser that normally comes from an excessive amount of energy being absorbed by the bow.
My definition of recoil is as follows..... It is the result of the limbs coming back to their brace position. The more forward facing the limbs then the more recoil there is in any given bow...when all else is equal. Adding significant weight to the arrow or reducing draw weight can lower the amount of recoil that any given bow produces because the limbs aren't reacting as fast or with as much pressure onto the bow. Other factors such as the cam style play a part in determining the type of recoil that is felt but I believe it to be the limbs (their construction and design) that have the most to do with the level of recoil that any given bow produces.
I will respectfully disagree with one particular statement that Stealth made regarding this matter....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So when I read "Bow "A" has a lot of recoil or shock" to ME this means he doesn't have it balanced for HIM/HER. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I think that certain bows, regardless of setup, possess more inherent recoil than others. This is determined by the design of the bow itself not any accessories that are installed. Ofcourse, accessories can help in this regard but they do not solely determine the bow's felt level of recoil.
Excellent discussion by the way...
Edited by - PABowhntr on 12/19/2002 06:55:46
12-19-2002, 07:32 AM
#12
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Honeyhole, IA USA
Posts: 494
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
I was scared to death to open this tread. I thought with that title about feelings we are going to be doing a bunch of male bonding and singing "khum-by-yah".<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-20-2002, 12:13 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
I do agree that limb size, weight and position are part of the recoiul equasion.
A heavier arrow won't reduce the amount of recoil...but will increase the time that recoil is applied. Giving a perception of reduction.
It is the duration and amount of presure that recoil is measured in.
While the heavier arrow arguably give the shooter MORE recoil (usually heavier arrow means more KE and momentum) the perception is that it lowers recoil as the preasure is spread out over a longer time. kinda like 60 lbs for a second vs 50 lbs for 1.5 seconds. 50 FEELS like less, but is actually more (60x1=60 50x1.5=75)
What I mean by "bow "A" had a lot of recoil or shock" not meaning much to me is that to me ALL bows have WAY too much recoil/shock...as they sit on the showroom floor. (Yes, I have shot a legacy, cybertech, and patriot as well as MANY others...don't gimme the hype, they ALL have recoil and shock). Simply put, there is NO bow on the market that I wouldn't add stuff to perfect it's balance, and eliminate shock/vibration.
SOME bows ARE better than others on the showroom floor! But NONE are better than a well balanced bow, and that is something you normally can't find in a showroom.
BTW, Matt / PA Excellent topic! I don't always agree with everyone (usually quite the contrary [;D]) but I enjoy a good logical debate/discussion.
A heavier arrow won't reduce the amount of recoil...but will increase the time that recoil is applied. Giving a perception of reduction.
It is the duration and amount of presure that recoil is measured in.
While the heavier arrow arguably give the shooter MORE recoil (usually heavier arrow means more KE and momentum) the perception is that it lowers recoil as the preasure is spread out over a longer time. kinda like 60 lbs for a second vs 50 lbs for 1.5 seconds. 50 FEELS like less, but is actually more (60x1=60 50x1.5=75)
What I mean by "bow "A" had a lot of recoil or shock" not meaning much to me is that to me ALL bows have WAY too much recoil/shock...as they sit on the showroom floor. (Yes, I have shot a legacy, cybertech, and patriot as well as MANY others...don't gimme the hype, they ALL have recoil and shock). Simply put, there is NO bow on the market that I wouldn't add stuff to perfect it's balance, and eliminate shock/vibration.
SOME bows ARE better than others on the showroom floor! But NONE are better than a well balanced bow, and that is something you normally can't find in a showroom.
BTW, Matt / PA Excellent topic! I don't always agree with everyone (usually quite the contrary [;D]) but I enjoy a good logical debate/discussion.
12-20-2002, 05:50 AM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
Stealth,
Some good points. I must admit.
I do disagree regarding the issue of a heavier arrow weight and recoil. If recoil is the result of the limbs returning to brace then a heavier arrow will slow down that reaction thus reducing recoil.
I do agree though that every bow has recoil...regardless of what others say. Accessories might balance the bow but recoil will still exist in one form or another. Ofcourse, we could load down the bow heavily with all types of gadgets and gizmos but then there is a level of practicality that must be observed in my opinion. I wouldn't buy a 3.75 lb bow because of its lightweight only to add another 3 lbs of accessories onto it just to eliminate recoil.
In this issue I would have to say that we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 12/20/2002 09:25:07
Some good points. I must admit.
I do disagree regarding the issue of a heavier arrow weight and recoil. If recoil is the result of the limbs returning to brace then a heavier arrow will slow down that reaction thus reducing recoil.
I do agree though that every bow has recoil...regardless of what others say. Accessories might balance the bow but recoil will still exist in one form or another. Ofcourse, we could load down the bow heavily with all types of gadgets and gizmos but then there is a level of practicality that must be observed in my opinion. I wouldn't buy a 3.75 lb bow because of its lightweight only to add another 3 lbs of accessories onto it just to eliminate recoil.
In this issue I would have to say that we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Edited by - PABowhntr on 12/20/2002 09:25:07
12-20-2002, 06:48 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oh USA
Posts: 1,584
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
My definitions:
Recoil: The movement of the bow as the string is released.
Vibration: What is felt by the shooter's hand after the arrow is gone. This can be caused by the riser, limbs, string , or accessories vibrating .
Noise: Same as vibration, though what is heard. As opposed to felt.
I have to disagree about a heavier arrow causing more recoil. As the limbs and string move forward, so does the bow. A heavier arrow will absorb more of the energy that tries to move the bow forward. This works the opposite of a rifle or shotgun, with a heavier bullet or shot charge causing more recoil, since there are no parts of either gun physically moving forward, as with a bow. Bows are also noisier and vibrate more when shooting light arrows. Again due to less energy being absorbed by the arrow and transferred, by the bow, to the shooter.
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
Recoil: The movement of the bow as the string is released.
Vibration: What is felt by the shooter's hand after the arrow is gone. This can be caused by the riser, limbs, string , or accessories vibrating .
Noise: Same as vibration, though what is heard. As opposed to felt.
I have to disagree about a heavier arrow causing more recoil. As the limbs and string move forward, so does the bow. A heavier arrow will absorb more of the energy that tries to move the bow forward. This works the opposite of a rifle or shotgun, with a heavier bullet or shot charge causing more recoil, since there are no parts of either gun physically moving forward, as with a bow. Bows are also noisier and vibrate more when shooting light arrows. Again due to less energy being absorbed by the arrow and transferred, by the bow, to the shooter.
Phil.
"Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-20-2002, 11:33 AM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
Agreed...we disagree
Now like I said,heavier arrows add recoil, but reduce perception because:
a) the recoil is spread out over more time
b) do to the firing cycle taking longer (i.e. slower) the forward momentum of the cams is reduced (they weight the same, but are going slower) so the bow doesn't want to jump out of your hand as badly.
The 2 together (less preasure over a longer time and less momentum of the cams/limbs) reduces the amount of jump after the recoil is gone.
MY undedrstanding is that RECOIL is what is happening DURING the shot. Not after. The bow doesn't move much during recoil, but AFTER the arrow is gone, your stiff bow arm, along with the forward momentum of the cams wants to move the bow forward out of your hand.
Cam profile will also affect this (longer peak cycle occuring earlier in the draw will amplify this).
Maybe I'm being TOO picky on this. Most will lump recoil in with the bow movement after the shot (shock to SOME).
I think we all get each others ideas though. Just don't read any of MY bow reviews LOL <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Now like I said,heavier arrows add recoil, but reduce perception because:
a) the recoil is spread out over more time
b) do to the firing cycle taking longer (i.e. slower) the forward momentum of the cams is reduced (they weight the same, but are going slower) so the bow doesn't want to jump out of your hand as badly.
The 2 together (less preasure over a longer time and less momentum of the cams/limbs) reduces the amount of jump after the recoil is gone.
MY undedrstanding is that RECOIL is what is happening DURING the shot. Not after. The bow doesn't move much during recoil, but AFTER the arrow is gone, your stiff bow arm, along with the forward momentum of the cams wants to move the bow forward out of your hand.
Cam profile will also affect this (longer peak cycle occuring earlier in the draw will amplify this).
Maybe I'm being TOO picky on this. Most will lump recoil in with the bow movement after the shot (shock to SOME).
I think we all get each others ideas though. Just don't read any of MY bow reviews LOL <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-23-2002, 07:48 AM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Flowery Branch Ga. 30542
Posts: 823
RE: Let's define what we are feeling....shall we? :-)
All I know is that when I shoot my havoctec with an open hand it has never jumped out of my hand. When I shot the razortech with an open hand it jumped completely out of my hand. Lucky I was able to catch it by the cam before it hit the floor. Now to me that means that the Razor had more recoil than my 2002 havoctec.. mmmmmmmm......
