Front OF Center
 

What is the correct range you want your FOC to fall into i have seen
8-12% and 12-15% which is correct or are they both wrong?

RE: Front OF Center
 

I've always heard 8-12%, Gold Tip FOC Calculator says 8-12%, http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/foc.asp , here's the Gold Tip FOC Calculator.

RE: Front OF Center
 

That is what i have always heard, i have used the FOC calculate at GT's website, it works great. But recently i read a thread on HN that refered to the proper FOC range as 12-15%. Kind of cofused me. OHbowhunter where abouts in Ohio do live/hunt? I live and hunt in Holmes county. But did more hunting in Michigan this year because i am attending Adrian College.

RE: Front OF Center
 

For hunting,EASTON reccomends between 10% and 15%.

RE: Front OF Center
 

The higher your front of center is the more arch your arrow will have, the lower the FOC the flatter shooting the arrow will be, anywhere around 10% should be plenty for stability and good trajectery

RE: Front OF Center
 

This is a myth.It doesn't matter what the foc is.a 500 grain arrow with 10% focwill fly the same as a 500 grain arrow with 20% foc,from a trajectory standpoint.This is puttingspine and tune aside.AND providing all else is the same.The foc is not a deciding factor in trajectory butweight is.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Front-of-Center
Balance Point:

10.94%

sorry forgot to add, So this is good then?

RE: Front OF Center
 

trajectory is decided by much more than weight, speed, weight, air resistance, lots of things. Maybe I got some bad infor about the FOC but It seems to make sence if an arrow is way to nose heavy that it wont have near as flat of a trajectory and the same arrow with a lesser FOC.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Yes it is decided by lots of factors but foc isn't in the equation.Atleast within the parameters of the archery industry it isn't.


Ask anyone who sets up sight tapes for their sliding sights,they never have to worry what the foc is,the total weight and drag are the deciding factors.All my sight tapes have been accurate to 80 yards when I get the info right.I just ran some settings out to 70 yards with 2 different foc's and the clicks were EXACTLY the same as well as the total drop of the arrow.


One of the programmers for an archery program was on here a few years ago arguing this very point.

RE: Front OF Center
 

I may be wrong, it just seems like FOC should change trajectory. Maybe the FOC isnt drastic enough or range isnt far enough. I dunno its like throwing a spear, if you tie a rock to the end of it its not going near as far and is going to nose dive faster.

RE: Front OF Center
 

By tieing the rock to the end,you change the overall weight and aerodynamics.

RE: Front OF Center
 

I just bought a dozen Carbon Express Maxima 350's FOC design.
The rep, who I am friends with was telling me that from the factory, when set up correctly, they yield about 12-13% FOC. According to him, this is about perfect for broadhead flight.

Shane

RE: Front OF Center
 

I guess that is true, really the only way to make it effect the trajectory is to add weight. I was thinking of screwing on a 170gr tip compared to a 75gr. which would give a much higher FOC but at the same time increase the overal weight. Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding TFOX

RE: Front OF Center
 

This stuff is just rubbish. Ideal FOC depends on the arrow length, static spine, draw length and draw weight. For one setup, it might be 7%, for another is might be 30%.

If I take an arrow with a spine of 300 and shoot it out of a typical 35 lb draw weight, I might need a tip weight of 300 grains to get proper flight. This might yield an FOC in the 30% range. If I take another arrow that has a spine of 400 and shoot it out of a 75 lb draw weight, I might need a tip weight of only 75 grains to shoot properly. It may give an FOC of only 5-6%. Hopefully, the smart hunter realizes that high FOC are forgiving with broadheads and choose shafts and tip weights accordingly.

RE: Front OF Center
 

I am running 13.1% on my arrows but a gal in our club , her dad set hers up for 16% FOC for outdoors. Gives her a lot of stability especially if she is shooting in a side wind. Also she is a world class shooter and has around 10 worlds records and 130 some national records since she has been shooting. And she is just 18 years old so I would say her dad is setting up her equipment well.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Odd, but most hunting occurs outdoors. The day most hunters realize that trying to maximize speed is detrimental for hunting, and that shooting high FOC arrows designed to shoot the heavy weights correctly, will be the day our deer population starts going down quickly.

RE: Front OF Center
 

I see what you are saying, but Carbon Express has a chart similar to eastons chart for arrow selection based upon draw weight, length. I am pretty sure they are basing this upon that chart. I don't think it applies to severely over-spined or under-spined arrows.

Shane

RE: Front OF Center
 

Does this chart have a recommended shaft for a 300 grain tip?

Charts are guidlines, not rules of what tip weight you must use. I am also not referring to anything that is over or under spined. It is becoming increasingly common to put very heavy tips on heavier than normal spined arrows, to give perfect dynamic spine, resulting in perfect flight.

The point I'm trying to make, is that any tip can be made to work. Light tips result in lower FOC, and heavy tips result in higher FOC. Higher is better for stability and penetration. Hunters should realize this. 10%-15% FOC is not ideal, at least not for many people. Those deciding that they want a 300 grain tip, will end up with a much higher FOC that is correct for their setup. At least it'll be correct if they choose the shaft spine, length, and draw weight correctly.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Dr Ashbury done a test on this very subject.

Look it up it is a very interesting read with a lot of very good info in it.

RE: Front OF Center
 

The maxima shafts , and arrow dynamics of old [dont know if they are still in production] have foc built in , if it concerns you , or you are haveing dificulty getting a good foc because of your setup , you might choose one of these shafts , feathers instead of vanes , will increase , and heavyer head weight will allso increase , both however will weaken spine .

RE: Front OF Center
 

for 3d, folks will shoot as low at 5-7% w/ field pts or nibs. for broadheads the 10-15% foc is better. i try and get around 13-14% on my broadheads, and don't worry if its up around 15-16%. for 3d i like to be in the 7-9% range.

RE: Front OF Center
 

A higher FOC simply makes your fletchings work harder is all. This could effect trajectory in a minor way because it may increase wind resistance over a longer length.

A lower FOC doesn't control the front of the arrow as well, so low FOC arrows tend to not do real well with large fixed blade heads. You can use a lower FOC, but it will require a better tune than an arrow with a higher FOC and better fletchings.

FOC is about the last thing I worry about in an arrow, but I don't concern myself with higher FOC arrows, like 15% and above.

The one thing to keep in mind, the more FOC you have, the weaker your spine will be because you have more weight in the front of the arrow. So high FOC arrow tend to be heavy if spined correctly.

With todays current technology in broad head design, fletchings, rests, bow design and the awareness of tuning I would say 9-12% would be a goal to shoot for. I think this would give most current archers with average equipment and skill a decent arrow to work with.

I wouldn't go much below 8% unless you have REALLY good arrows, good form a fair understanding of how to tune a bow. Adequate fletching would be a must as well. An example would be a newer archer with little tuning experience using a cheap carbon arrow, light cheap satalite large cut broad heads, and 3 or 4 inch straight fletched vanes. You would probably do ok with field tips, but when it came time to tune for broad heads it would probably give you fits.

I have seen people walk out of cabela's with this type of a set up. They shoot great in the back yard with practice tips, then wonder why they miss or wound game when they go hunt.

My opinions anyway.

Paul

RE: Front OF Center
 

That is a common belief that is not necessarily true. OL Adcock won world championship distance shooting (not accuracy shooting, but distance) with an extremely high FOC (well over 15%). High FOC arrows will not necessarily "nose-dive".

RE: Front OF Center
 

I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.

Aiming for some mid-range figure should not be considered ideal. If you're hunting real large game, or not likely to take a shot over 30 yards, then there is no real disadvantage to using very high FOC arrows. Extreme FOC arrows give substantial advantages in stability under less than ideal conditions and penetration on bone hits. It also makes tuning broadhead flight a lot easier. There is less tendancy for the front end to plane.

The average hunter does not super-tune their setups. They would be far better off using FOCs in the 17-20% range, rather than something midrange, like 10-12%. The advantages really show up with those that are less experienced. They simply need proper guidence in selecting arrows and tips. Any halfway decent shop should be able to do this. Trouble is, many shops slap 100 gr heads on every arrow, with no regard to spine and FOC. In my opinion, this is anything but professional service.

By the way, it's Dr Ashby's reports that you want to read.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Here is a link to Ashby's reports if interested:

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

RE: Front OF Center
 

Hey man I posted that at 5:30am my spelling mind was still asleep:):D

RE: Front OF Center
 

[quot

I don't care if you're the best archer in the world. Low FOC hunting arrows will be a disadvantage in wind, when hitting twigs or when contacting bone.
e]ORIGINAL: Straightarrow

contacting bone? are you talking balance pt or penetration...heavy arrow
vs light arrow? you should have said" light wt hunting arrows not low foc"
because you can make a heavy shaft with low foc that will resist the wind and break bone.


IMO 9 to 13% foc will cover just about every configuration of vanes, wraps,and pts from 75 to 125grs and offer you a good flying arrow.[:-]

RE: Front OF Center
 

I did a little test of this scenario one time.I added weight tubes to an arrow and had the foc at 5% but the arrow couldn't be weighed on my scale because it was so heavy,it also spined out to 100#.The arrow penetrated like crap but whenI took the weight out and got the foc up to around 12 or 15%(can't recall exacty right now)it penetrated great.The test medium was foam and particle board with several shots taken from a tuned bow.The arrows were Nitro Stinger that are tapered and the spine range was from 60#-100#.


My setup is a low poundage one where it matters.Point is that foc matters.Those that have high energy setups can fudge on foc because the ke is so high.


I am not a heavy arrow kind of guy but I like to have good foc(not as much as Straightarrow) but I like it.I also like MASS.I prefer carbon or carbon /aluminum composite and feathers and penetrtation will be fine.


Straightarrow is telling the old school way of doing things,when ke wasn't very high at all.Recurves and long bows needed as much momentum as they could get.These HEAVY slow arrows needed alot of foc and alot of drag to remain stable in flight and produce great penetration.It isn't completely necessary with todays equipment but what he states is factuall.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Tfox, nice experiment.

The problem is, what I'm talking about is considered old-school. It should be considered today's school. It's just as practical today, with modern equipment, as any other day in the past. The prinicples have remained true. The benefits are still there.

Dr Ashby has proven the importance of high weight on penetration and the effect extreme FOC has on increasing penetration. He's proven it on flesh and bone, not foam or steel. These principles hold true on any animal whether it's a moose or a whitetail. I can't tell you how many guys I've heard lament having hit a shoulder and not penetrated enough for a kill, using their modern equipment and light, low-FOC arrows. I watch modern hunting shows and see center-of-chest hits penetrating about 6-10inches - all the time. So-called professional hunters that don't know the first thing about proper arrow configuration, is what I think is going on.

The only disadvantage of heavy arrows, is when a person doesn't know the distance. That is easily overcome with today's rangefinders and proper pre-hunt planning.

I disagree completely. In my opinion, almost everyone would be better off shooting heavier points and higher FOCs. On the extreme end, I can just imagine going after an Alaskan brown bear with a 125 gr tip on a 9% FOC arrow. Heck, the arrow would probably bounce off. If I did that that shot, I'd make sure my guide is real good with a rifle on an angry bear. I wouldn't dare even imagine going after something really big, like a cape buffalo. That arrow likely wouldn't even get halfway through one rib.

I know - you're talking about whitetails, not cape buffalo. Well, it doesn't matter. A whitetail's shoulder is just as tough to get through as a cape buffalo's rib. When I tout the benefits of high FOC on heavier arrows, I'm not referring to perfect conditons and perfect hits (how often does that happen?). I'm talking about the typical hunt, with wind gusts, unseen twigs, odd shot angles, slightly off-target hits and a hunter that is not as calm as he should be. The kind of forgiveness and stability you get from this type of arrow is exactly what most hunters should have.

I blame this light-arrow, need-for-speed mentality on the popularity of 3d shooting. Field tips being shot at unknown distances. People setup their bows and their arrow to perform well at this game. Then, they go out shoot something similar at live animals. Well, hunting is a different game. We shoot broadheads and it should never be at an unknown distance. The optimum arrow to perform well in most hunting senerios, is absolutely nothing like what is best for 3d.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Here's my setup: 430gr arrow at 10% foc (125gr fixed) traveling at 271fps =70lbs of ke.My brhd's & fieldtips have same poi to 60yds.
This is not enuff for the biggest bear? Geuss again.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Straightarrow, in the first place no arrow is going to be able to penetrate a cape buffalo's rib.

RE: Front OF Center
 

So the one's that hunt them are depending on luck not to hit a rib.:eek:

RE: Front OF Center
 

LOL, not the typical puny 400 gr arrow with a 10% FOC being shot at a whitetail - not a chance on a cape buffalo rib. However, an 800 gr arrow with a 28% FOC, now that's another story. Dr. Ashby has dozens of veryified hits with these passing through after hitting ribs on both sides of the buffalo. Height weight and high FOC makes a huge difference on penetration.


I'll guess that on a perfect hit, you'll be okay. On a less than perfect hit, be prepared to run like a deer. Heck, why do thing think it's illegal to use such a light arrow on griz? It ain't because it's such a lethal combination. It's because it's performance regarding penetration sucks when compared to a properly designed arrow for really large game.

RE: Front OF Center
 

Where is it illegal to use a 430gr arrow on griz?

RE: Front OF Center
 

Sorry, my mistake. A few years ago, there was a proposal to make the minimum gr arrow used for Moose or Bear in Alaska , something in the 800 grain area. I thought that it had passed. I just checked, and it did not.

I do know that there are many guides in both Alaska and Africa that will not take a customer with such light arrows. Many demand fixed blade broadheads and heavier arrows. They've witnessed hundreds of these huge animals, shot by arrows and they know what works.

Really, just read Dr. Ashby's reports. Many of his hundreds of observed kills are on water buffalo, which are huge - ribs like 2x4's. He records the details about each kill. He's been doing this for many years. After reading his studies, it's easy to see the superiority of heavy arrows with very high FOC.

RE: Front OF Center
 

I know some people who've hunted there with a bow and they weren't using a 70# bow either. One guy went his first time with a bow at justover 80. Hit an elephant just a hair forward at 25 yrds. Hit the shoulder bone. The bull reached back and pulled the shaft out. They searched for a couple days to find it, never did. Still cost him $17,000. I don't think the foc has as much to do with it, as an arrow with weight, a bow to through it and a guy that can pullone.:D

The same guy has been back several times and hasbeen very sucsessful. His taxadermy billis enormous. Some guyshave it.

RE: Front OF Center
 

That's really something in itself.

RE: Front OF Center
 

No doubt, there are a number of important factors, and FOC is a big one. However, when we're talking about elephants, I don't think there is a bow or arrow combination that could be considered effective on an elephant. From what I hear, you either hit between the ribs and hit the heart, or forget it. Kind of like shooting a whitetail with a 10 gr dart and expecting to kill it.

RE: Front OF Center
 

TFox , have you ever looked at the way the rib cage of a Cape buffalo is formed. The ribs overlap so a broadside shot is NOT going to get through the rib. You take a quartering away shot to be able for your arrow to get between or slide off of a rib and get into the vitals.

RE: Front OF Center
 

But you said no arrow,it is proven to be done and with a heavy ,high foc arrow.


I believe Ihave seen them shot and killed on tv with a completely broadside shot(if memory serves).We don't always see what is "the best" on tv though.;)


You are probably correct with the best way to shoot them,I am not an Africangame hunter.[8D]


I am not a heavy arrow guy but when it comes to busting bone,you must haveHIGH momentum and high foc.