muzzyman88

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Particularly after I shot the Guardian. With the constant push to eliminate all shock, vibration and feedback from a bow during the shot. Can a bow to be too void of "feedback" an be detrimental to consistant accuracy? In years past, a few of the bows I've owned would let me know if I didn't make a good, crisp shot. Its sort of difficult to explain the feel when a shot doesn't go right, but I think most of us who've shot long enough know what I'm talking about. Even these new, ultra low shock designs will let you know, but its not nearly as pronounced as some of the older designs.

I often have wondered why you do not see many parallel limb configurations on the indoor line. I realize ATA length plays a large role, but many of the longer ATA parallel bows feel much longer than they really are.

Tuning is another thing that comes to mind. I remember quite a few bows that I could tell to a degree that my tuning efforts were getting closer as the bow would begin to exibit less noise and vibration. With a bow that has very little to begin with, I believe it might be easy to be lulled into thinking its good enough when if fact it might not be. Are we beginning to rely more heavily on only visual feedback on paper or target and not also with bow feel?

Too much vibration of course is not good. But wouldn't too little or none, have similar affects?

I realize this post may infringe somewhaton what PAbowhnter has already posted and I apologize if it has. My goal was to take this in the other direction.

TFOX

IMO,yes as far as targets go.

Look at the new Hoyt pro 38 and ultra 38.One of the Hoyt engineers actually stated that it lunges slightly forwardthe waytarget archers like.If the bow doesn't lunge forward but instead goes to the side a bit,you will know BUT most good shooters will know anyway.I haven't shot one yet so I can not say how much or little lunge it has but was part of the thought process at Hoyt.

I have said many times when shooting tournaments,man,that felt good.I have also said,that felt like sh!t a few times too.[]


IMO,the reason you don't see parralel limbs in the pros hand is because they are not as easy to hold as a standard limb angle bow.A parralel limb bow starts to look like a box at full draw and a regular limb angle bow looks like a triangle.Which is sturdier? Thistranslates into forgiveness and accuracy.(plus the limb angle gives feed back)I also believe the parralel limb offset the larger brace.


When poking deer at 30 yards,there isn't a problem.Even stretching to 50 can be done quite effectively but there is a difference when you put a deflex,40" a-a bow with a 8"+ brace with an angled limb in your hands and start shooting at distance for extreme accuracy on a conistant basis in a variety of circumstances.


All bows are accurate,just some are more accurate to shooter flaws than others.

Just an opinion guys.[8D]

Straightarrow

I tend to agree, which is one reason why I've yet to own a parallel limbed bow. I like a little feedback on the shot. I also like lighter risers and vastly prefer the looks of a more traditional bow.

PABowhntr

I think there is some merit to what you are saying as well and I do not think I could have said it more accurately.

However, as with many issues I do not think we can necessarily generalize to include all parallel limb bows in this category. Yes, reduced recoil is a factor with all of them but the cam style also comes into play. I am sure we have all felt the difference in shot feel between a single cam and a dual cam bow regardless of the limb/riser design.

The reason I mention this in particular is because I have been giving some thought to this issue recently as well. Five or six years ago I was very big on the original Hoyt Havoc with the Redline cam. At the time it was one of the few "short" bows on the market offered in my draw length. There were many aspects of the bow that appealed to me but the one I seldom mentioned, and now realize was probably one of the most important, was that it delivered the arrow with what I felt was an authoritative feel to it. I do not know exactly how to describe it but I believe it was the same issue that muzz is referring to.

Now, the reason I have been giving thought to it lately is because the Diamond Black Ice that I am now shooting delivers that same feeling to my hand as I release the arrow. Based on the premise that the lack of "feel" during the shot isthe result of theparallellimb design my experience with the Black Ice should not be occurring. My conclusionwould then be that it has to be the result of the cam design or possibly the result of a variety of factors not the least of which being the weight of the bow, the bow's geometry, or overall balance.

In essence though I think the parallel limb design could potentially be an issue with "feedback" as you called it I think there are other issues probably also at play here.

muzzyman88

PA, that is an excellent way of putting it.

I also agree about cam design having a lot to do with it, though I think the new binary and other hybrid designs are better than single cams, especially in regards to authoritative shot feeling. Wonder if they'll use this statement in their adds someday?

PABowhntr

I do not think it has been my experience that one cam design in particular has been noticeably superior to another in terms of that authoritative feel for me personally. The two bows I mentioned were single cams though I have felt it with other cam designs as well. I believe it to be more of the case of a combination of issues not the least of which being the particular cam design. It could also be something as simple as an archer's shooting form with a particular bow. I just don't have an answer exactly but I do have alot of suspicions.

As for them using my comment in a promotional piece, whom were you referring to? Hoyt or Diamond? I would hope the latter since Hoyt isn't making the Havoc anymore.

JOE PA

Very interesting question. I don't know that I can shoot well enough to really give a helpful answer, but I will say that I got a surprise this summer. When I first shot a low recoil bow (Q2 XL), I realized that all the time I had been shooting other bows, I had been flinching some. I have noticed several bows that I owned seemed to be very critical of my mistakes, while others seemed more forgiving, errors resulted in arrows missing by less than the more critical bows. To make the bow have more parallel limbs, the riser must have pretty much reflex to it. According to Len and others, this should make the bow less forgiving to shoot. That seemed to hold true until I got my Champion Scorpion. The riser has 3" of reflex, and the bow has a brace height of only 7". It has less recoil than any other CPS cammed bow I've owned. Should be a nightmare to shoot, right? I have, on several occaisions, often when pretty nervous, shot 4 arrows into less than a 2" circle at 30 yards with this bow. Considering my old eyes and the fact that I don't use a peep sight, I just can't do much better. The bow also tuned easily with broadheads. Much more easily than a Scepter 3 with Nitrous X, or a Rival Pro with greater ATA and an 8" brace height. I think each bow is a law unto itself. I just can't figure this one out, except that it pleases me very much. I really think it all boils down to whether you can keep concentrating, hold pretty steady, and aim througout the shot without anticipating. If you can do that, the accuracy should be pretty good, shock or no shock.

PABowhntr

This is a perfect example of what I was referring to. It has to be a combination of factors that leads to that particular feel.

in da woods

IMO, the parallel limb design is for primarily hunters in mind. Looking for the more compact design, while still being able to deliver features yhat target bows have. Longer riser = a more steady shot w/forgiveness.If I am correct, but are not the risersable to maintain length,but the ata isshorter due to the parallel limbs?Regarding the "feel" of a good/bad shot, I recently got a Tribute. A far cry from 5 yr. old dbl oval cam Golden Eagle, mind you. But after learning, from the proshop owner, how to "hold" this bow, I could feel whether or not a shotwas good just by the way the arrow released.That was at the day Itested it out & bought it.It could be, that we must adjust our grip/shooting style to these new high tech bows, & by doing so we may end up having that feeling again.

JOE PA

Frank: I find it very interesting that you should mention that the Black Ice reminds you of the Havoc in terms of what you are feeling in your bow hand. One would think that it would have a very much lower "recoil" feel due to the different geometry. I would have thought it would have the lowest of the low recoil bows you have owned, given the design of the bow. It does make sense that you are feeling a similar sensation with two bows that shoot very well for you, even though you seem to shoot them all pretty well. Frank has been kind enough to let me shoot his 1. '03 Patriot, 2. '04 Mighty Mite VFT, 3. '04 Pro 40 Freedom, and 4 '05 Old Glory. All very nice bows to be sure, but all just a little different from each other. That Black Ice I looked at and drew at Cabelas had an absolutely awesome grip!