Frank: I find it very interesting that you should mention that the Black Ice reminds you of the Havoc in terms of what you are feeling in your bow hand. One would think that it would have a very much lower "recoil" feel due to the different geometry. I would have thought it would have the lowest of the low recoil bows you have owned, given the design of the bow. It does make sense that you are feeling a similar sensation with two bows that shoot very well for you, even though you seem to shoot them all pretty well. Frank has been kind enough to let me shoot his 1. '03 Patriot, 2. '04 Mighty Mite VFT, 3. '04 Pro 40 Freedom, and 4 '05 Old Glory. All very nice bows to be sure, but all just a little different from each other. That Black Ice I looked at and drew at Cabelas had an absolutely awesome grip!