How much KE is enough?
12-01-2006, 09:24 PM
#21
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Well fer cryin' out loud, nodog!Go get a cup of coffee or something and rouse your wits. Your brain ain't workin' right.
I'm comparing arrows that are only 100 grains differentin weightwith a 30 fps difference. His testing is with arrows have a 187 grains difference from heaviest to lightestwith roughly a 56 fps difference between the two.
I calculate roughly 3 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. His results average 2.97 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. Therefore, my friend, his chronograph readings areperfectly consistent with my calculations.
If you want a debate, you can take me to task over my refusal to consider anything below 400 grains of arrow weight to be a good hunting arrow. You can't argue with my calculations. Sorry.
If you look at the Darton something or other thread a guy shot 3 different arrows and there was a much greater difference in speed than your calculating.
I'm comparing arrows that are only 100 grains differentin weightwith a 30 fps difference. His testing is with arrows have a 187 grains difference from heaviest to lightestwith roughly a 56 fps difference between the two.
I calculate roughly 3 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. His results average 2.97 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. Therefore, my friend, his chronograph readings areperfectly consistent with my calculations.
If you want a debate, you can take me to task over my refusal to consider anything below 400 grains of arrow weight to be a good hunting arrow. You can't argue with my calculations. Sorry.
I think that buffalo hunter was around there and quit a bit heavier shaft. His would have been going at least another 30 slowerHe!! I think I can throw a spear that fast.
12-01-2006, 10:29 PM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: How much KE is enough?
He!! I think I can throw a spear that fast.
You know what I've witnessed in IBO that proves to me that speed is not nearly the killing advantage youclaim it is?Back in the early days of IBO, the longest distance for thestakes was 'about' 60 yards. Which meant they were often closer to 70.This is in the days before carbon arrows, when 95% of us shot fingers,and when it was a rare compound that could shoot anywhere close to making 220 fps.
Well, over the years, we got carbon arrows. We got higher and higher performance from our bows. We got nearly everybody and their dog to using mechanical releases. We got very high letoff bows for aiming with no strain. We got fiber optic sights. We got dropaway rests that actually work for more than two weeks before they break. We gotall kinds of fancy stabilizers instead of a steelor aluminum rodwith a brass ballthreaded onto the end.We gots all kinds of stuff that wasn't even possible back then.
BUT... If these are really IMPROVEMENTS, then why is the longest distance shot nowadays only 50 yards, and even that is only for the open class. The compound release classDEMANDED the rules committe to change the stake distance so they onlyshoot 40 yards max. THAT'S A MERE TEN YARDS FURTHER THAN THE TRADITIONAL GUYS SHOOT!
All that high rollin', fast shootin' equipment and they can't outdo the trads by more than THAT? Now I don'tcare whoya are,that's funny right there.
If the speed was such a 'big advantage', like you claim it is,wouldn't they be extending the yardages even further in order to maintain the competitive level? Instead, the distances are getting shorter and shorter!??!
So, either today's IBO shooters completely suck when compared to the old timers. Or they gots no cajones and are afraid to shoot any real distance. Or, their super fast equipment is a severe handicap when compared to the slower, but more stable and easier to tune and shoot bows ofnearly 20 years ago.
I think it's likely the latter.
12-02-2006, 05:17 AM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
All that high rollin', fast shootin' equipment and they can't outdo the trads by more than THAT? Now I don'tcare whoya are,that's funny right there.
If the speed was such a 'big advantage', like you claim it is,
All that high rollin', fast shootin' equipment and they can't outdo the trads by more than THAT? Now I don'tcare whoya are,that's funny right there.
If the speed was such a 'big advantage', like you claim it is,
Trad guys are like most guys of that caliber, the real deal. Rare individuals. Heavy on the individuals. Not suprizing they can hold their own.
12-02-2006, 07:17 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: How much KE is enough?
Hold on. I'm not saying it's such a big advantage. I'm saying it's an edge that can be used, not discarded as worthless. Open minded you could say. Not old, crusty and set.
), but that isn't a disadvantage. You'll find out as you age, you don't get stupider. Experince is actually an advantage that the young haven't... well... experienced. Let's talk about speed. Of course it's an advantage if everything else is equal. The problem is, increasing speed, doesn't leave everything else equal. If you get it by increasing draw weight or draw length, dynamic spine is changed and your "tuned arrow" is no longer tuned to shoot it's best out of that setup. The arrow now flys unpredictably in some situations. Increasing draw weight or draw length, by itself, can make shooting more difficult.
If you increase it by decreasing arrow weight, that's fine, unless you change the spine. If the spine is weaker, you now have to reduce the draw weight, which slows down your arrow. If you don't reduce your draw weight, your tuned setup will no longer be optimally tuned - arrow doesn't fly as well.
If you increase arrow speed by reducing tip weight, you automatically increase dynamic spine of your arrow - and you decrease FOC. In my opinion a high FOC is the absolute most critical aspect of a good hunting arrow. Once again, these changes are not a good thing.
No matter what area we adjust in our attempt to increase arrow speed in a significant way, we have to mess with another important aspect of a good hunting setup. This is why you should design an arrow for two things. First, choose a weight that will give enough penetration for the size game you're after. Second, build that weight arrow for the most accuracy with a broadhead on it, and accept speed for what it is. This will give "average Joe" the best chance of killing his quarry.
Myself, in addition to whitetails, I hunt elk almost every year and do not want to have two different sets of hunting arrows, so I design my hunting arrows around 550 grains, which is the minimum I want to be shooting a large elk with. I put a broadhead on that gives me at least a 15% FOC and large helical feathers on the back. These cut through a stiff breeze and small twigs better much better than the dozens of lighter, lower FOC arrows I've tried in the past. I learned a long time ago that I take home more game if I'm shooting a super stable, accurate arrow vs. one that is high speed, but not as stable in wind or other less-than-ideal situations.
Over the years, I've watched hundreds of young people get into bowhunting, and invariably the ones that have the most success are the ones who concentrate on accuracy and do what they can to their setups to accomplish that. In fact, one of the very biggest boosts to success that I've witnessed, have been to those who have greatly reduced draw weight. I've seen guys go from 70 lb bows to 55 lbs and like magic start hitting what they're aiming at. Trust me, their speed went way down, and their accuracy way up, and they took home more game.
12-02-2006, 09:03 PM
#25
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
I may be old, crusty and set (I know Arthur is), but that isn't a disadvantage. You'll find out as you age, you don't get stupider. Experince is actually an advantage that the young haven't... well... experienced.
Let's talk about speed. Of course it's an advantage if everything else is equal. The problem is, increasing speed, doesn't leave everything else equal. If you get it by increasing draw weight or draw length, dynamic spine is changed and your "tuned arrow" is no longer tuned to shoot it's best out of that setup. The arrow now flys unpredictably in some situations. Increasing draw weight or draw length, by itself, can make shooting more difficult.
If you increase it by decreasing arrow weight, that's fine, unless you change the spine. If the spine is weaker, you now have to reduce the draw weight, which slows down your arrow. If you don't reduce your draw weight, your tuned setup will no longer be optimally tuned - arrow doesn't fly as well.
If you increase arrow speed by reducing tip weight, you automatically increase dynamic spine of your arrow - and you decrease FOC. In my opinion a high FOC is the absolute most critical aspect of a good hunting arrow. Once again, these changes are not a good thing.
No matter what area we adjust in our attempt to increase arrow speed in a significant way, we have to mess with another important aspect of a good hunting setup. This is why you should design an arrow for two things. First, choose a weight that will give enough penetration for the size game you're after. Second, build that weight arrow for the most accuracy with a broadhead on it, and accept speed for what it is. This will give "average Joe" the best chance of killing his quarry.
Myself, in addition to whitetails, I hunt elk almost every year and do not want to have two different sets of hunting arrows, so I design my hunting arrows around 550 grains, which is the minimum I want to be shooting a large elk with. I put a broadhead on that gives me at least a 15% FOC and large helical feathers on the back. These cut through a stiff breeze and small twigs better much better than the dozens of lighter, lower FOC arrows I've tried in the past. I learned a long time ago that I take home more game if I'm shooting a super stable, accurate arrow vs. one that is high speed, but not as stable in wind or other less-than-ideal situations.
Over the years, I've watched hundreds of young people get into bowhunting, and invariably the ones that have the most success are the ones who concentrate on accuracy and do what they can to their setups to accomplish that. In fact, one of the very biggest boosts to success that I've witnessed, have been to those who have greatly reduced draw weight. I've seen guys go from 70 lb bows to 55 lbs and like magic start hitting what they're aiming at. Trust me, their speed went way down, and their accuracy way up, and they took home more game.
I may be old, crusty and set (I know Arthur is
), but that isn't a disadvantage. You'll find out as you age, you don't get stupider. Experince is actually an advantage that the young haven't... well... experienced. Let's talk about speed. Of course it's an advantage if everything else is equal. The problem is, increasing speed, doesn't leave everything else equal. If you get it by increasing draw weight or draw length, dynamic spine is changed and your "tuned arrow" is no longer tuned to shoot it's best out of that setup. The arrow now flys unpredictably in some situations. Increasing draw weight or draw length, by itself, can make shooting more difficult.
If you increase it by decreasing arrow weight, that's fine, unless you change the spine. If the spine is weaker, you now have to reduce the draw weight, which slows down your arrow. If you don't reduce your draw weight, your tuned setup will no longer be optimally tuned - arrow doesn't fly as well.
If you increase arrow speed by reducing tip weight, you automatically increase dynamic spine of your arrow - and you decrease FOC. In my opinion a high FOC is the absolute most critical aspect of a good hunting arrow. Once again, these changes are not a good thing.
No matter what area we adjust in our attempt to increase arrow speed in a significant way, we have to mess with another important aspect of a good hunting setup. This is why you should design an arrow for two things. First, choose a weight that will give enough penetration for the size game you're after. Second, build that weight arrow for the most accuracy with a broadhead on it, and accept speed for what it is. This will give "average Joe" the best chance of killing his quarry.
Myself, in addition to whitetails, I hunt elk almost every year and do not want to have two different sets of hunting arrows, so I design my hunting arrows around 550 grains, which is the minimum I want to be shooting a large elk with. I put a broadhead on that gives me at least a 15% FOC and large helical feathers on the back. These cut through a stiff breeze and small twigs better much better than the dozens of lighter, lower FOC arrows I've tried in the past. I learned a long time ago that I take home more game if I'm shooting a super stable, accurate arrow vs. one that is high speed, but not as stable in wind or other less-than-ideal situations.
Over the years, I've watched hundreds of young people get into bowhunting, and invariably the ones that have the most success are the ones who concentrate on accuracy and do what they can to their setups to accomplish that. In fact, one of the very biggest boosts to success that I've witnessed, have been to those who have greatly reduced draw weight. I've seen guys go from 70 lb bows to 55 lbs and like magic start hitting what they're aiming at. Trust me, their speed went way down, and their accuracy way up, and they took home more game.
Sounds like your a good example of an archer doing what needs to be done. I just don't think it has to be done the same by everyone. You also mentioned that as we age we slow down. In order to do that we have to have been zipping a little first.
Good post! Maybe chasing down some elk would make me wish I was shooting a 55lb bow too.
