How much KE is enough?
11-30-2006, 12:57 PM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
People get way too worried about such things as KE and arrow speed. For the most part, they are meaningless variables. Set up your bow to send a correctly spined arrow with a lot of weight up front, in a straight line, and you'll probably kill what you're shooting at.
A buddy of mine just got back from a buffalo (bison) hunt. He took a 1300 lb bull, shooting a 58 lb compound and a 600+ grain arrow. It took 2 shots to bring it down. Both were complete passthroughs in the ribcage. He wasn't worried about arrow speed and I'll guarantee you he has no clue what KE is. He knows how to take down large animals and what makes a good hunting arrow.
I love it!
People get way too worried about such things as KE and arrow speed. For the most part, they are meaningless variables. Set up your bow to send a correctly spined arrow with a lot of weight up front, in a straight line, and you'll probably kill what you're shooting at.
A buddy of mine just got back from a buffalo (bison) hunt. He took a 1300 lb bull, shooting a 58 lb compound and a 600+ grain arrow. It took 2 shots to bring it down. Both were complete passthroughs in the ribcage. He wasn't worried about arrow speed and I'll guarantee you he has no clue what KE is. He knows how to take down large animals and what makes a good hunting arrow.
Another rule of thumb: Any KE recommendation that doesn't include all the variables is a load of male bovine dung.
12-01-2006, 04:16 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: nodog
So he's no where near your average Joe. What about theaverage Joes that make up most of the hunting industry, how much help do they need?
I'd say speed would be a big advantagefor them on smaller more reactive animals like a whitetail.
So he's no where near your average Joe. What about theaverage Joes that make up most of the hunting industry, how much help do they need?
I'd say speed would be a big advantagefor them on smaller more reactive animals like a whitetail.
If deer are reacting to the shot and actually getting out of harms way, then the person would be better off getting closer, or concentrating on being more quiet. If a deer is capable of dropping 5" in the .17 seconds it takes the arrow to get there at 20 yards, then increasing arrow speed by 10% will only cause the distance a deer drops to decrease by 1/2". A phenomenal 20% increase in speed would only gain them an inch. This is nothing in comparison with the decreases in accuracy that occur from shooting arrows that are configured less than ideal.
As long as the shaft is spined stiff enough, there is enough weight up front, and enough drag in the rear, it doesn't matter what the arrow speed is. When building hunting arrows, you design them for best flight, not highest speed. That is, if you want the most hunting success. Speed should never enter the equation.
12-01-2006, 06:33 AM
#13
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow
That's the point. The "average Joe" thinks that speed is everything. In reality, the attempt to increase their arrow's speed, causes it to become more difficult to fly straight. The ever-so-tiny advantage that speed gives in trajectory, is lost 10 fold in accuracy decreases, and penetration problems. If trajectory is a problem in a person's hunting ranges, they should get a rangefinder or start marking known distances at their stands.
If deer are reacting to the shot and actually getting out of harms way, then the person would be better off getting closer, or concentrating on being more quiet. If a deer is capable of dropping 5" in the .17 seconds it takes the arrow to get there at 20 yards, then increasing arrow speed by 10% will only cause the distance a deer drops to decrease by 1/2". A phenomenal 20% increase in speed would only gain them an inch. This is nothing in comparison with the decreases in accuracy that occur from shooting arrows that are configured less than ideal.
As long as the shaft is spined stiff enough, there is enough weight up front, and enough drag in the rear, it doesn't matter what the arrow speed is. When building hunting arrows, you design them for best flight, not highest speed. That is, if you want the most hunting success. Speed should never enter the equation.
ORIGINAL: nodog
So he's no where near your average Joe. What about theaverage Joes that make up most of the hunting industry, how much help do they need?I'd say speed would be a big advantagefor them on smaller more reactive animals like a whitetail.
So he's no where near your average Joe. What about theaverage Joes that make up most of the hunting industry, how much help do they need?
I'd say speed would be a big advantagefor them on smaller more reactive animals like a whitetail.
If deer are reacting to the shot and actually getting out of harms way, then the person would be better off getting closer, or concentrating on being more quiet. If a deer is capable of dropping 5" in the .17 seconds it takes the arrow to get there at 20 yards, then increasing arrow speed by 10% will only cause the distance a deer drops to decrease by 1/2". A phenomenal 20% increase in speed would only gain them an inch. This is nothing in comparison with the decreases in accuracy that occur from shooting arrows that are configured less than ideal.
As long as the shaft is spined stiff enough, there is enough weight up front, and enough drag in the rear, it doesn't matter what the arrow speed is. When building hunting arrows, you design them for best flight, not highest speed. That is, if you want the most hunting success. Speed should never enter the equation.
A faster arrow can make the difference between failure and his loved ones being proud of their provider. You wouldn't want to make him wait seasons to experience that, now would you?Many say speed was never an issue in the past,true but so are many other things grandpa.
I do believe hunting with a bow was not so much talked about either.
There are peoplewho would and do laugh at people who shoot bows and arrows and not take game much bigger in size with the knife and spear.
It's not that black and white of an issue and both have some advantages such as a guy getting on in years and not being able to pull the big bows anymore. The good news is by then he doesn't have to if he's learned, likethe nah sayers here.
Expected and enjoyed by myself. I wouldn't want them to change andif I ever did hunt with them I'd be sure to have a dead animal at my feet before they would tell me I can't.
12-01-2006, 08:49 AM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: How much KE is enough?
Come on now. Maybe it's been a while since you were average so take a look at many of the post here. Average Joe would be better at getting better, but that takes seasons to accomplish in the mean time they need an edge and is the reason so many of them now connect. Speed has helped.
We'llassume the premise that Mr Average Joe's shooting skills are less than championship grade, so hehas no business shooting arrows at anything that bleedsbeyond 30 yards, and 20 would probably be better. Not so?
We'll also assume Mr Average Joe has a modern high tech compound. Say his bow will shoot a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps. Now, everyone knows the light arrow leaves the bow with less energy than the heavy one and in this instance it has more. To do it right, I'd have to adjust the 500 gn arrow's speed upwardsto give it about 2-3 ft/lbs more than the 400 gn, but this is just for illustration and not scientific accuracy. Okay? Work with me here.
So, consider... The difference in flight time over 30 yards between a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps would besomething around39/1000ths of a second. At 20 yards the difference in contact would only be 26/1000ths of a second. A light arrow slows faster than a heavier one, and over 30 yards a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps willloseapproximately 12 fps over 30 yards. A 500 gn arrow at 250 will lose only 9 fps, so actual flight time would be very slightly less.
I don't care who ya are,that tiny bitof a difference in time between release and arrow contact is nothing at all like a 'big advantage.' In fact, as I've already pointed out, I have given the light arrow an advantage in this example.
Flatter trajectory? Non issue. Even if you ramp the speed for the light one to 300 fps, difference in midrange trajectory at 30 yards is only an inch. Even less at 20.
The extra speed only creates a tiny, miniscule,itsy-bitsy advantage. Not even measureable without a chronograph and sophisticated equipment in a controlled laboratory environment. And the last I checked, regardless of how hardsome people are trying to make it so, we don't hunt deer in a controlled laboratory environment. Well, at least not yet.
The extra speed is not going to make Mr Average Joe a better shot. It's not going to keep hisheart out of his throatwhen he gets a deer in range (frankly, if I had a piece of equipment that did away with that feeling, I'd never use it again. I love that adrenaline rush! Probably why I never quit hunting with real bows.
)That teensy weensy bit of advantage is just not going to make him a better bowhunter, and it's better bowhunters who take home venison.... or guys who plain get lucky.Sorry, but he's still going to have to suffer through the learning curve before he can make his loved ones proud of him.
12-01-2006, 11:51 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: How much KE is enough?
I agree with Auther , and will and that ,the animal you are shooting at will jump alot more with a bow shooting a light fast arrow , as its goint to be lots louder at the shot , if thats your concern . Im shooting around 265 fps and had a doe completly drop out of the way this year on a 35 yard shot , think Ill try some heavery arrows next year as , that is the first deer I have actualy seen drop from "jumping the string"
12-01-2006, 02:20 PM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
With all due respect, nodog... MEADOW MUFFINS! And if the guy has to take home a deer to make his loved ones proud of him, the boy's got a helluva lot more issues to worry about than arrow speed.
We'llassume the premise that Mr Average Joe's shooting skills are less than championship grade, so hehas no business shooting arrows at anything that bleedsbeyond 30 yards, and 20 would probably be better. Not so?
We'll also assume Mr Average Joe has a modern high tech compound. Say his bow will shoot a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps. Now, everyone knows the light arrow leaves the bow with less energy than the heavy one and in this instance it has more. To do it right, I'd have to adjust the 500 gn arrow's speed upwardsto give it about 2-3 ft/lbs more than the 400 gn, but this is just for illustration and not scientific accuracy. Okay? Work with me here.
So, consider... The difference in flight time over 30 yards between a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps would besomething around39/1000ths of a second. At 20 yards the difference in contact would only be 26/1000ths of a second. A light arrow slows faster than a heavier one, and over 30 yards a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps willloseapproximately 12 fps over 30 yards. A 500 gn arrow at 250 will lose only 9 fps, so actual flight time would be very slightly less.
I don't care who ya are,that tiny bitof a difference in time between release and arrow contact is nothing at all like a 'big advantage.' In fact, as I've already pointed out, I have given the light arrow an advantage in this example.
Flatter trajectory? Non issue. Even if you ramp the speed for the light one to 300 fps, difference in midrange trajectory at 30 yards is only an inch. Even less at 20.
The extra speed only creates a tiny, miniscule,itsy-bitsy advantage. Not even measureable without a chronograph and sophisticated equipment in a controlled laboratory environment. And the last I checked, regardless of how hardsome people are trying to make it so, we don't hunt deer in a controlled laboratory environment. Well, at least not yet.
The extra speed is not going to make Mr Average Joe a better shot. It's not going to keep hisheart out of his throatwhen he gets a deer in range (frankly, if I had a piece of equipment that did away with that feeling, I'd never use it again. I love that adrenaline rush! Probably why I never quit hunting with real bows.)That teensy weensy bit of advantage is just not going to make him a better bowhunter, and it's better bowhunters who take home venison.... or guys who plain get lucky.Sorry, but he's still going to have to suffer through the learning curve before he can make his loved ones proud of him.
Come on now. Maybe it's been a while since you were average so take a look at many of the post here. Average Joe would be better at getting better, but that takes seasons to accomplish in the mean time they need an edge and is the reason so many of them now connect. Speed has helped.
We'llassume the premise that Mr Average Joe's shooting skills are less than championship grade, so hehas no business shooting arrows at anything that bleedsbeyond 30 yards, and 20 would probably be better. Not so?
We'll also assume Mr Average Joe has a modern high tech compound. Say his bow will shoot a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps. Now, everyone knows the light arrow leaves the bow with less energy than the heavy one and in this instance it has more. To do it right, I'd have to adjust the 500 gn arrow's speed upwardsto give it about 2-3 ft/lbs more than the 400 gn, but this is just for illustration and not scientific accuracy. Okay? Work with me here.
So, consider... The difference in flight time over 30 yards between a 500 gn arrow at 250 fps and a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps would besomething around39/1000ths of a second. At 20 yards the difference in contact would only be 26/1000ths of a second. A light arrow slows faster than a heavier one, and over 30 yards a 400 gn arrow at 280 fps willloseapproximately 12 fps over 30 yards. A 500 gn arrow at 250 will lose only 9 fps, so actual flight time would be very slightly less.
I don't care who ya are,that tiny bitof a difference in time between release and arrow contact is nothing at all like a 'big advantage.' In fact, as I've already pointed out, I have given the light arrow an advantage in this example.
Flatter trajectory? Non issue. Even if you ramp the speed for the light one to 300 fps, difference in midrange trajectory at 30 yards is only an inch. Even less at 20.
The extra speed only creates a tiny, miniscule,itsy-bitsy advantage. Not even measureable without a chronograph and sophisticated equipment in a controlled laboratory environment. And the last I checked, regardless of how hardsome people are trying to make it so, we don't hunt deer in a controlled laboratory environment. Well, at least not yet.
The extra speed is not going to make Mr Average Joe a better shot. It's not going to keep hisheart out of his throatwhen he gets a deer in range (frankly, if I had a piece of equipment that did away with that feeling, I'd never use it again. I love that adrenaline rush! Probably why I never quit hunting with real bows.
)That teensy weensy bit of advantage is just not going to make him a better bowhunter, and it's better bowhunters who take home venison.... or guys who plain get lucky.Sorry, but he's still going to have to suffer through the learning curve before he can make his loved ones proud of him.
If you look at the Darton something or other thread a guy shot 3 different arrows and there was a much greater difference in speed than your calculating. I'm sure I could see the difference between the 2 in speed, but my eyes are still on the good side.
I am a guy who went several seasons withouther being able to put on the lard and onions. It was hard on her because it was hard on me.
Funny story.
Had some woman last year demand of me that I let her hubby hunt my place. He still hasn't taken anything. He also refuses to learn.
I must be doing something wrong, because when I try different arrows I get a much bigger change in things.
Always a pleasure.
12-01-2006, 02:33 PM
#17
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: ijimmy
I agree with Auther , and will and that ,the animal you are shooting at will jump alot more with a bow shooting a light fast arrow , as its goint to be lots louder at the shot , if thats your concern . Im shooting around 265 fps and had a doe completly drop out of the way this year on a 35 yard shot , think Ill try some heavery arrows next year as , that is the first deer I have actualy seen drop from "jumping the string"
I agree with Auther , and will and that ,the animal you are shooting at will jump alot more with a bow shooting a light fast arrow , as its goint to be lots louder at the shot , if thats your concern . Im shooting around 265 fps and had a doe completly drop out of the way this year on a 35 yard shot , think Ill try some heavery arrows next year as , that is the first deer I have actualy seen drop from "jumping the string"
Shoot some heavier arrows this summer and see. I shot several thislast summer,some where zipping for my rig. I settled on what I wanted. Worked well for me.The sound isn't always that bad. I used beaver balls this year. Try those out. I liked them.
Good hunting!
12-01-2006, 02:48 PM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: How much KE is enough?
If you look at the Darton something or other thread a guy shot 3 different arrows and there was a much greater difference in speed than your calculating.
I'm comparing arrows that are only 100 grains differentin weightwith a 30 fps difference. His testing is with arrows have a 187 grains difference from heaviest to lightestwith roughly a 56 fps difference between the two.
I calculate roughly 3 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. His results average 2.97 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. Therefore, my friend, his chronograph readings areperfectly consistent with my calculations.
If you want a debate, you can take me to task over my refusal to consider anything below 400 grains of arrow weight to be a good hunting arrow. You can't argue with my calculations. Sorry.
12-01-2006, 03:16 PM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: How much KE is enough?
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Well fer cryin' out loud, nodog!Go get a cup of coffee or something and rouse your wits. Your brain ain't workin' right.
I'm comparing arrows that are only 100 grains differentin weightwith a 30 fps difference. His testing is with arrows have a 187 grains difference from heaviest to lightestwith roughly a 56 fps difference between the two.
I calculate roughly 3 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. His results average 2.97 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. Therefore, my friend, his chronograph readings areperfectly consistent with my calculations.
If you want a debate, you can take me to task over my refusal to consider anything below 400 grains of arrow weight to be a good hunting arrow. You can't argue with my calculations. Sorry.
If you look at the Darton something or other thread a guy shot 3 different arrows and there was a much greater difference in speed than your calculating.
I'm comparing arrows that are only 100 grains differentin weightwith a 30 fps difference. His testing is with arrows have a 187 grains difference from heaviest to lightestwith roughly a 56 fps difference between the two.
I calculate roughly 3 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. His results average 2.97 fps per every 10 grains of arrow weight. Therefore, my friend, his chronograph readings areperfectly consistent with my calculations.
If you want a debate, you can take me to task over my refusal to consider anything below 400 grains of arrow weight to be a good hunting arrow. You can't argue with my calculations. Sorry.
I won't forget the lesson.
