I understand where you are coming from and must admit that I have rarely tuned to the level of accuracy you arereferring to. However, you now have me intrigued in that regard. When it comes time for the new bow I believe I will give it a try.

It is curious though as this seems to be an issue with the degree to which one tunes not necessarily a difference in end results. It is entirely possible to get a bow to shoot both broadheads and field points to the same point of impact and still get a good level of grouping for broadheads provided one isn't looking the for the optimal level of either. I think we can all agree on that. The definition of "optimal" I think is the point of contention. I do not have the skill or the time to get to level of of accuracy that you mention but I trust your judgement and understand why you have reached the opinion that you have on the subject.

I couldn't either to be honest, but I doubt we are the average archer, which is what I was talking about. Most would just start wrenching on the rest or moving the nocking point even if it took it waay away from what you know it should be.

I carefully pick the size and length of arrow I will use using a program that is calibrated to my bows effeciency, then play with my weight range until it matches my set up. Then fine tune it from there. Actually you end up going back and forth to get it perfect if you are that anal about it.

However most just get a bow, max the poundage out and grab some 60 some dollar carbon arrows that some crappy chart said will work and hope it works out alright for them.

Then whine because they can't split a field tipped arrow with a fixed blade tipped arrow. Go figure. And then chances are they are shooting some light carbon with straight fletching and crappy FOC, and if they are lucky they are using the same weight tips for both set ups.

Oops, I think I'm ranting, sorry guys.

Paul

No way. I'm sure you think about almost everything.

That's exactly what I'm referring to. When I have a situation where my field tips are not hitting near my broadheads, I try to figure out what is causing the broadheads to plane off line. I almost never mess with center shot or nock height. I usually start by experimenting with the draw weight or tip weight. I'll even shorten arrow length if I need to . I usually have already experimented with cam timing and position. I also get slightly varying results from experimenting with tiller. The bottom line is, when I get done tuning, my broadheads and field tips are hitting my plumb line and horizontal line at varying distances. Normally, when I'm done, the bareshafts group right along with the others (I don't shoot the bareshafts past 25 yards)

I spend a lot of time testing and tuning for spine. I run all my arrows through a spine tester and cull any that are significantly off. I also align the cock feather with the stiff side on each arrow. This alone has greatly shrunk my broadhead groups. My groups are not smaller when I shoot aluminums with my broadheads.

I've wondered if I'm seeing more consistancy between my broadheads and field tips, because I shoot very high FOC. Right now, I'm at about 20% FOC and haven't shot broadheads below 13% for several years. The archery shop I hang at, has a lot of hunters that that frequent it. None shoot an FOC as high as I do and none spend the time I do on my arrows, making sure they are ideal for my setup. I've become a huge fan of high FOCs and am in the process of leaning towards extreme FOCs. I think the benefits towards not only better accuracy, but increased penetration are significant.

I don't want to leave the impression that I do anything possible to get my broadheads and field tips hitting together. It's just happens to be the results of my tuning process. If I was going to guess as to what factors contribute most to this, it would be spine tuned arrows, high FOC, helical 5" feathers, and fine tuning the dynamic spine on my arrows, being shot out of my set-up.

The best arrows I have shot with fixed blades were Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stingers, the tapered ones. They have quite a bit of FOC and are pretty stiff. These things flew like darts with fixed blades and required very little tuning.

I have also shot fixed blades with 7 percent FOC though with good results, however it took way more effort to get them there.

I have always felt adequate fletching and FOC were the keys to good arrow flight. Not the best idea for long range shooting from what I understand. Maybe Arthur can explain that one.

Paul

For one thing, Paul, I totally disagree that a high FOC is not good for long range shooting. Arrows with high FOC are supposed to 'nosedive' at long range, according to the guys who subscribe to that theory. Plain and simple, they don't nosedive. Trajectory might not be as flat but that's due to the arrow weighing more, not to the weight distribution of the arrow.

It's another speed cult myth.

Ever played a round of darts? Darts are made with a very high FOC. Try throwing a dart fins first instead of point first and it will flip around and, after a couple of wobbles, will straighten out, quickly stabilize and fly point first. It'll act just like you threw it point first to start with. The heavy end naturally wants to go in front and the light end is perfectly content to trail along directly behind it. I guess somebody with a PhD in physics could explain how it works, but all I need to know is that it works... and it do.

Same deal with arrows. The higher the FOC, the more stable the arrow. The higher the FOC, the quicker the arrow will stabilize when it leaves the bow, or in case of a minor deflection. The more stable the arrow's flight, the more accurate it is. Not to mention the easier it makes bow tuning.

When someone does what Straightarrow does, run a really high FOC then put big ol' feathers in a healthy helical on the back end of the arrow, he winds up with an incredibly stable arrow. It costs some speed and a bit of trajectory, but everything in archery is a tradeoff.

That is pretty much what I read/heard. It really effects the trajectory at longer ranges. From what I understood the norm is skinny arrows and low profile fletches for much less drag.

The explanation I got was that you didn't need the extra stabilization because the arrow has much more time and distance to stabilize on it's own. Versus shooting at closer distances and having to force the arrow to stabilize much quicker. Also it was mentioned that more FOC and especially more drag could effect the arrows consistancy from arrow to arrow at much longer ranges. Like if one arrow had slightly more drag than another it could effect it's impact point farther down range. Something you wouldn't notice at 20 or 30 yards, but would have a large impact at 70-90 meters. So the less drag and more arrow dynamic the arrow the better it would slip thru the air and be more consistant from arrow to arrow.

Again, only going by what I have read on the net and what one guy told me a few years ago at a club. I have no real first hand experiance on the subject as you do. I used to practice at 70 meters sometimes, but honestly wasn't what I would good at that distance. Every now and then I could pull myself together and get 3 arrows to group in a few inches, but mostly fist sized or bigger groups.

I like to do it because at that distance you can really tell if you are doing something wrong with your form or grip. If you pull a shot you really PULL a shot.

I tend to agree with your thoery of thinking though. If you are shooting at known distances who give a rats butt how fast the arrow is going. When I shot spots I would see guys shooting light arrows with straight vanes and hunting type draw weights. The heck with that, I shot arrows with LOT's of fletch and lower draw weights. Why wear myself out, and who cares how fast the arrow gets there? I did a lot of playing though, as far as trying different arrows, releases, rests and the such. It wasn't uncommon for my set up to be different every week. Doesn't do much for your scores, but I had fun. I really just wanted a warm place to shoot in the winter. I wasn't there to win anything.

Paul

Yeah, I now spend more time dragging heavy deer, instead of looking for my errant arrows. I kind of like that tradeoff.

Actually, my arrows only go about 525 grains - and that's with 20% FOC. They still fly quite flat, since they're probably going around 230-240 fps. I shoot much better groups with these at 80-90 yards then I ever did with my lower FOC, lighter arrows.

I've been shooting arrow with an FOC of around 26% out of my longbow, and really love how they fly, but it's hard to compare them, since I can't shoot them past 35 yards without looking foolish. This winter I plan on building up a dozen for my compound that are in the 25-28% FOC range. I'm betting that they fly even better.

More time and distance to stabilize is only surface truth. The problem is, the further downrange your arrows get before they stabilize, the more margin of error gets accumulated. Are all your arrows going to stabilize consistently? Are they all going tostill be on track to where you aimed them when they stabilize?

You still want the arrow to stabilize as soon as possible after it leaves the bow. Frankly, I'd take my chances with drag before I'd allow time and distance to do the trick. At least I can do my best to make sure all my arrows are fletched consistently so they will have a consistent amount of drag.

But you can definitely wind up with poor long range results if you have EXCESSIVE drag. Especially if you're shooting in the wind.

If I were setting up an arrow specifically to shoot 90 meter FITA rounds, I would not be using big honkin' 6" high profile banana cut feathers with a hard helical wrap. Instead, I'd use 2 1/2-3" low profile feathers with a slight offset but with enough weight in the tip to give me an FOC around 15%.

Most FITA shooters use FOC's running 11-16%. The higher FOC gives the arrow it's best chance to stabilize quickly, enough stability to fly well with less fletching, and the small fletching (less drag)keeps speed up down range so wind drift isn't as much of an issue. The arrow stabilizes sooner, and wind drift is decreased and both of those add up to better groups and higher scores.

Put a broadhead on that FITA arrow though, and I'd darn sure be using bigger feathers and more helicalto control it. And I would retain that 15% FOC.

Now, hardcore 3Ders set up for maximum speed and use small fletches while running FOC's down in the 6-8% range. Then they do all kinds of gymnastics and gyrations with their bow tune in order to get that arrow launched as clean and straight as possible. They HAVE to go through all that trouble because they are shooting high speeds at relatively short distances. The arrow better be coming off the bow straight because it's going too blinkin'fast to stabilize before it hits the target. And some of 'em use the same FOC/fletching setup with fixed blade broadheads!!Takes more guts than I've got.

some guys worry about their setup way too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is wind drift alsoremedy'd by more spin???? i think the best thing is to find the happy medium for your bow...also ive jumped down from 65lbs to 55lbs recently and shoot tighter groups than ever...even tho my speed is prob 25fps slower also now shoot 5 inch helical feathers w big offset and 125 grain tips heavy arrows compared to most but not sure of the exact wieght.

is a heavy arrow lesseffected bywind driftdownrange?????

I think it depends on how much weight and the profile of the arrow. In theory, yes a heavy projectile usually bucks the wind better than a lighter one. However if the heavier projectile is so large that it "catches" more wind it can more easily be blown off course.

A good example of this is rifled shotgun slugs. Sure they are heavy, however do to the slower speeds, size and shape of the slug they don't do very good in the wind beyond 50-75 yards. They drift far enough at 100 yards that it is wise to zero your scope for windage at 50 yards or so and then test them at 100 yards on a calm day, then again on a windy day to see what sort of variation you get. Where as if you are shooting a 30 caliber centerfire the heavier bullet will usually buck the wind better, given it is the same caliber weapon. You can't compare a 30-30 with a heavy bullet to a 300 win mag with a lighter bullet. Velocity also effects wind drift to a point, but the speeds have to dramatically increase I think.

I can only assume slower moving arrows would be subject to the same physics. I bet arrow length would have something to do with it as well.

Paul