Youwant to tunefor a specific goal of getting broadheads and field points to hit together, regardless of whetheryou get the very best accuracy possible with either. I guess from that perspective a bow could be called a perfectly when you achieve that goal.

Then you changed your goal and wanted the best possibleaccuracy with your broadheads, so you fine tuned the bow for broadheads. But thatfine tuning wound up'detuning' the bow it from shooting field points and broadheads to the same POI.

You could then turn around and decide you want to shoot field points in a tournament with that bow, so you fine tune it for top accuracy with field points. Then you'd be 'detuning' it from shooting broadheads perfectly, but it would be fine tuned to fit the new goal.

I prefer to think I'm fine tuning a bow to fit the job at hand. I've never really given the slightest thought that I was detuning it from doing another job. Detuning... Kinda silly to think that way, if you ask me.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but a few things don't ring true. The balance point remains in the exact same spot if the broadhead weighs the same as the field tip. I've actually found the balance point and marked it with a felt pen and when switching to a broadhead, had it balance on the same mark - repeatedly.

If I have a bow where broadheads impact with field tips at 20 yards, 40 yards, and 60 yards, what could possibly be out of tune? If center shot was off, they couldn't possibly impact the same at all those varying distances. The same would be true of nock height. When a broadhead starts to plane, it will be off by even further amounts at longer ranges. If your broadhead didn't impact the same as the field tip, it would mean that your individual sight pins would have to be adjusted out of plumb.

I have no problem getting broadheads and fieldtips to impact in the same general area when I tune my bows. I've never considered this to be a sign of an out-of-tune condition. I don't have to mess with individual pins. They are all still in the same plumb line. Arrows fly to where I'm pointing upon release.

Your point about only being able to tune to your shooting ability is a good one. However, I don't quite understand tuning to group size. I've never seen anyone measure their groups. How would one know if at one adjustment point, group size was 3.125" or 3.375"? It would take painstaking measurements that would unlikely be very accurate.

Here's how I do it: For centershot, draw a plumb line on the target. Adjust center shot so the same pin hits the plumb line at 20 yards and 60 yards. If you can't do this with a broadhead, it means that your arrow is not tuned correctly. Spine is off, FOC is too low, broadhead is not on straight, arrow has inconsistant spine, or some other problem. I am always able to make whatever arrow tuning adjustment that is needed to get the broadhead flying true.

For nock height, I tune with a bareshaft and field points to get the ideal position. I use string nocks, so I can make very fine adjustments on nock height. One turn of the string nock equals about 1/32" adjustment. Sometimes, I only use 1/2 turn of the string nock.

I remain unconvinced that impact will be significantly different on a setup that is correct. I'm referring not only to the bow's tune, but arrow spine, FOC, spine matched arrows and tuned broadheads. Maybe it has something to do with how I tune everything. I use stiffer than normal arrows, lots of helical feathers, very high FOC, heavier than average arrows

Very interesting discussion by people who obviously have more experience and expertise than I have. I have heard the "compromise tune" argument many times by guys who feel that getting the same impact point with broadheads and field points is some kind of compromise. I guess that may be true when shooting fingers, I'm not sure. I suppose it could be true with a release. I still can't fathom getting better broadhead accuracy than you can get if you get the cleanest, straightest possible launch of a broadhead tipped arrow to eliminate planing. If you get that, what could make the field point shoot someplace else? I've yet to get any type of satisfactory answer to that one (at least when we are discussing release shot bows.) Len in Maryland is the most knowledgeable person on this topic I have ever met. He seems to think that bare shaft/fletched field point/fletched broadhead all hitting in the same place is a good thing. I guess I can be glad that my two favorite hunting areas will only give me a 20 yard shot at the max distance. Going to spend more time worrying about scent control for next year.

When you measure to the back of the insert and totally disregard what's going on out in front, as long as the weight doesn't change the balance point doesn't change. For setting up broadhead arrows though, I far prefer the old fashioned method that measures the total length of the arrow, from nock to tip. With that method, the balance point does shift, and it shifts in the wrong direction.

You've obviously never shot field archery.Background... It'sa game of accuracy and consistency, shooting 4-arrow groups atevery target (though afew stations have multiple targets with one or twoarrows each)from about 10 feet to 80 yards.There is no slop factor allowed like you get in 3D. You know the exact distance to the target. You shoot four times which means you might get lucky on one or two shots, but not four in a row. You shoot 112 arrows in a round instead of just 30 or 40 which puts a huge demand on consistency. The smaller and more consistentyour group sizes, the better your score...as long as your groups are centered in the target. [&:]

When you're shooting groups at 60 yards - the distance I set for my longest pin - small tweaks can make dramatic differences in group sizes. When you've gotten the bow tuned to give you the smallest groups you can get at 60, that correlates to smaller group sizes at the shorter distances as well.

I've never, ever, had a bow fine tuned in that wayfor shooting field points that would shoot broadheads to the same point of aim. I've never seen ANYBODY that did, and I was fortunate enough to belong to a club that counted some of the best archers in Texas among it's members. Those were guys I made a point to hang out with and they taught me a great deal about shooting and tuning.

At the time, we also had unknown distance broadhead shoots (set uplike 3D but using fiberboard cutouts with piles of clean sand for backstops). The broadhead shoot was usually an add-on at the end of a standard field shoot, and we were required to use the same bow for both. So, I - along with every other person I shot with - had a dovetail sight mount and two sets of sights - one sighted in for field points and the other sighted for broadheads.

It has EVERTHING to do with how you tune. If you tune specifically to get your field points and broadheads to strike the same POI, what else can you expect when you tune to meet that specific goal?

Different goals require slightly different tunes. For field archery, my goal was to get the very best accuracy and consistency with field points. I got that, but my broadheads refused to strike the same POI. When I tuned specifically for broadheads using the same method,field points did not strike the same POI. I could have tuned to get both to strike together, but I would have remained at NFAA class B instead of being able to play with the Big Boys in A class. (I don't think NFAA uses the class breakdowns any more due to low participation.It's a shame more people don't do field archery, because they'dbecome much better shooters if they did.)

If you think that getting bare shaft/field points/broadheads all striking together is a good thing, set that as your goal and wind up with good enough accuracyto serve your purposes, then tuning the bow to get them all together is a good thing. Just remain aware that the bow is slightly DETUNED from shooting either oneperfectly.

Joe, you are correct that shooting a release instead of fingers diminishes the variation. It doesn't eliminate it though.

Arthur,

I am not trying to be argumentative but do you think it is possible that someone else may have been able to get the results that you were not? Could it have been the result of something unique to you or your setup? Though I have not personally tuned to the distances you mentioned for quite some time I have been able to get fairly tight broadhead and field point groups with both impacting the same area (within an inch or two) out to 40 yards. Now, if your comments are directed at higher levels of accuracy then what I am suggesting then I can understand your perspective and experiences with this issue.

I'll throw my 2 cents in here again as well (probably end up being 4 or 5 cents by the time I'm done though).

First of all yes, some people do measure thier groups. You are correct that the difference between 3.125 and 3.375 isn't a big deal, however if you are shooting 3 inch groups I wouldn't be worrying that much about it. That really isn't great shooting as far as target shooting is concerned. And fine tuning really doesn't shrink your groups, not in the way most think. What it does is makes them more consistant. Some top archers have shot some of the best scores recorded with really out of tune bows. The key was they had perfect or near perfect form.

Now if you can get bareshaft arrows, fletched arrows and broad heads all to group in the same spot (I'm talking 2-3 inches at 40 yards) then your bow is most likely tuned well and your spine is pretty darn good for your set up. Not to mention you have decent form and aiming skills.

Now lets say you get a bow and some arrows, then start tuning. Most will start will with paper tuning ( some will stop there[]). Then you decide to bareshaft tune, then maybe do some group tuning or walk back tuning. After you do all this you are happy with your set up and shooting the best groups you feel you can. And you are pretty confident the arrows are leaving the bow as straight as you can get them, especially if your bareshafts impact with your field points out to 30 or 40 yards.

Now you decide to slap some fixed blades on there. You shoot some arrows and they group fine but not where you aimed. Now you you want to broad head tune. In order to do this most will start messing with thier rest or nocking point. In essence changing what you were confident was a perfect tune prior to this. You may be DE-tuning your previous set up. Will you notice at 20 yards or so with field tipped arrow in your back yard? Most likely not, especially if you are shooting 3 inch groups on average. Now if you shot longer distances or indoor spots I bet your scores would change and your bow wouldn't be as forgiving anymore. I bet your broad head groups would also open up a bit as well. Would it be enough to make your bow so inacurate you can't hunt with it? I highly doubt it, I am quite sure it will be just as deadly. However I wouldn't count on shooting a 300 vegas round with it.

The reason behind this is most likely your arrow spine. Well matched and consistant arrow spine is pretty important in tuning and grouping well. Even more so with fixed blade heads.

It really boils down to what you want to do with your bow. Do you want an all around bow that will do both well? If so then broad head tuning is what you should try. I wouldn't even waste time on bare shaft tuning, just go right to broad head tuning and work on that until you are happy. The honest truth is that for most average archers well fletched target tipped arrows are pretty darn forgiving and if you have good form super tuning is not ultra important.

Now if you want a target bow that you will occasionally hunt with, but more than 90 percent of it's use will be indoor spots or 3-D then I would go for bare shaft and group tuning, then see where your broad heads impact and compensate for that when hunting. If you picked your spine well they should be pretty close anyway. If you tune your bow and your broad heads are 3-4 inches or more away from your field points something more is wrong then simple rest or nock adjustments. I'd start playing with the draw weight of your bow or looking at your grip and form.

Just my opinions anyway. It really boils down to what makes you happy and confident in your equipment.

Paul

Frank, again, if you tune toward the specific goal of making your field points and broadheads strike the same POI, it can be done.

I'm saying the bow can be tuned to shoot broadheads even better when you tune specifically for them. It will also shoot field points even better if you tune specifically for them.

And, yes, it's absolutely possible that, through some strange quirk of fate or maybe Divine Intervention, you could wind up with a bow/arrow/broadhead/tune combination that will shoot both field points and broadheads perfectly and to the same POI.

But then, again, is the guy who's doing the tuning skilled enough to see the differences? Is he shooting to distances where variations in POI can be readily seen? For instance, the 'inch or two' you see at 40 yards would becloser to threeinches at 60 yards, or 4" at 80 yards. Add those extra inches to your normal group sizes at those distances and you get an idea of what can happen.

Shooting field archery, those 4" at 80 yards would easily put you out of the spot and into the 4 ring. So... Yes, I suppose Iam talking about a greaterlevel of accuracy and consistency- at longer distances -than most people who've come up in the 3D sport have ever demanded of their equipment.

I freely admit that probablynone of thismeans a flippin' thing to 99% of the guys who cruise this forum, and they're happy as clams at getting their broadheads and field points to strike same POIover the distances they commonly shoot. And I can see why they would call it a perfect tune.But allowing that to go unchallenged would bea disservice to that other 1%, who would want or need to know they can tune for specific purposes and get better results.

I can't imagine tuning a bow to shoot a broadhead without messing with the spine. It's by far, the most critical aspect in my opinion. I use the bareshaft to test spine, and determine nock height - that's all, but it's critically important when shooting a broadhead.

I still think that when you end up with broadheads hitting in a significantly different spot, you missed something. The spine is incorrect, the FOC is too low, the bow has a problem, the arrows aren't spined matched, the broadheads aren't on perfectly straight, or some other critical area was missed. Of course, with some set-ups, the best you can do, will not allow them to impact in the same spot. Correct the problem with that set-up and they will.

Arthur, you're right, I've never shot field archery, but it sounds like fun. I do have a range in my yard that allows me to shoot up to 100 yards, which I shoot at every week. I have a very good handle on my relative group size at a 100 yards, but I don't actually measure them. If there was a problem with the group size, I wouldn't move my centershot. That was determined with my plumb line, which is the most accurate method I can think of. If I'm hitting a plumb line at all distances, how could group tuning improve the centershot setting on the bow? It can't. I prefer to test one vector at a time, which it why I shoot for a plumb line and then a horizontal line when setting nock height.

I wanted to comment on this point. It doesn't matter where I measure from. The mark I place on the arrow is the same balance point whether I use a field tip or a broadhead. On a flexing shaft, the actual balance point on the shaft is what is important. If the tip weight remains the same, it doesn't matter what the configuration is. The shaft will still flex the same and balance in the same spot.

SA, before I walk away from this brick wall to take care of the bumps it's left on my head... You've been constantly returning to the issue of arrow spine and, I admit, I'm a bit hurt. Surely you don't think I have overlooked something THAT basic, do you? It's part of the tuning procedure.

Sometimes just changing the draw weight of the bow by 1/4 turn on each limb bolt can match the bow better to the arrow's spine and have dramatic effect on group size. As can making the tiniest changes in cam timing/rotation/synchronization. Or tiller. Even cleaning or replacing the cable slide can have a measurable effect. It's not always nock point and centershot you need to take care of.

Hmmm.... As I was typing this, a little light bulb flashed over my head. It may be with carbon arrows - and the spine inconsistencies that I and others have documented on the forums - that it's not possible to fine tune group sizes like I'm describing. Might have some bearing on why you think this is all poppylarky. [&:]