brace height, riser or ATA
12-05-2005, 05:40 PM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Arthur, Gibblet-
The person who wrote the article has been building high quality compound bows for over 30 years. While it is quitepossible that the wording may not bepalatable to everyone, the context howeveris very sound. Take any bow-- deflex, reflex, straight,or whatever,and draw a triangle from the pivot point of the grip, up to the pivot point on the outer radius of the cams where they meet the string at full draw, and out to the nocking point at full draw. Everything forward of the angle itself (riser)has no bearing on the forgiveness of the design, it could be shaped like a banana and it wouldn't matter as long as the brace heights were the same. Also the mechanical advantage ismute as everything forward of the triangle itself is a rigid beamwith the limbs bent at full draw and the only hinge is at the cam/string connection. Cams themselvesplay a largefactoras far astorque goesas well and this may be where some may be pulling their theories from due to differing designs for different bows and their individualriser design. When oneuses thetriangle howeverit is easy to see what affects theforgivenessof any bow.
The person who wrote the article has been building high quality compound bows for over 30 years. While it is quitepossible that the wording may not bepalatable to everyone, the context howeveris very sound. Take any bow-- deflex, reflex, straight,or whatever,and draw a triangle from the pivot point of the grip, up to the pivot point on the outer radius of the cams where they meet the string at full draw, and out to the nocking point at full draw. Everything forward of the angle itself (riser)has no bearing on the forgiveness of the design, it could be shaped like a banana and it wouldn't matter as long as the brace heights were the same. Also the mechanical advantage ismute as everything forward of the triangle itself is a rigid beamwith the limbs bent at full draw and the only hinge is at the cam/string connection. Cams themselvesplay a largefactoras far astorque goesas well and this may be where some may be pulling their theories from due to differing designs for different bows and their individualriser design. When oneuses thetriangle howeverit is easy to see what affects theforgivenessof any bow.
12-05-2005, 09:00 PM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Very few get the opportunity to test a deflex riser against a reflex riser. If you do get the opportunity, try the test this way. Shoot a lot of arrows with both designsas fast as you can and compare the results. The deflex riser bowshould stabilize faster and allow the shot to be executed with more accuracy/confidence.
While it may be true that a good archer with a lot of time to shoot will find both bows compatible, hunting situations do not usually give you minutes to shoot. A hunting situation usually allows only seconds to shoot anddemands awkward positioning and narrow windows of opportunity.
IMPO thehappy median betweendeflex/reflex for hunting situations lies in the<1.5" reflex riser. See, you thought full deflex was my agenda.
I'm really against seeing the 'average' archer being sold speed bows with higher BH that actually wind up being 2 1/2"+ reflex geometry. This is not as new as some might believe. I've seen it for at least 10 years.[:@]
While it may be true that a good archer with a lot of time to shoot will find both bows compatible, hunting situations do not usually give you minutes to shoot. A hunting situation usually allows only seconds to shoot anddemands awkward positioning and narrow windows of opportunity.
IMPO thehappy median betweendeflex/reflex for hunting situations lies in the<1.5" reflex riser. See, you thought full deflex was my agenda.
I'm really against seeing the 'average' archer being sold speed bows with higher BH that actually wind up being 2 1/2"+ reflex geometry. This is not as new as some might believe. I've seen it for at least 10 years.[:@]
12-05-2005, 09:37 PM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 774
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
I say brace height.I don't like really short a-a bows,because of peep alignment,and excessive nock pinching with loops.They do seem to be less forgiving than longer a-a bows.Finger shooters like longer bows,with higher brace heights.So they don't pinch their fingers as bad,and higher brace heights are more forgiving.The increase in height along with the shortening of the bow is probably because the limbs are parallel,and more laid back because of riser design.It will also help the bows accuracy,as I have found that short bows are not as forgiving,but the increased BH helps regain alot of that,. have not seen the bow you speak of,I'm just guessing.
So I say 1-Brace height
2-a-a length
3-riser design.
Hope I helped.
So I say 1-Brace height
2-a-a length
3-riser design.
Hope I helped.
12-05-2005, 10:26 PM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
I found this while browsing on the Hoyt web site;
What is a reflex riser and a deflex riser?Reflex and deflex are terms used to explain the geometry of a riser. A deflex riser bow will have a higher brace height than a reflex riser bow which generally means it is a more forgiving bow. A reflex riser bow has a shorter brace height which usually translates into a higher performance bow and perhaps a bit less forgiving than a deflex riser bow. Reflex/deflex is measured by the position of the throat of the grip in terms of its location from a line drawn from each of the pocket pivot points on the handle. If the throat of the grip is in front of the pivot point line it is considered deflex, if it is behind the pivot point line it is considered reflex.
What is a reflex riser and a deflex riser?Reflex and deflex are terms used to explain the geometry of a riser. A deflex riser bow will have a higher brace height than a reflex riser bow which generally means it is a more forgiving bow. A reflex riser bow has a shorter brace height which usually translates into a higher performance bow and perhaps a bit less forgiving than a deflex riser bow. Reflex/deflex is measured by the position of the throat of the grip in terms of its location from a line drawn from each of the pocket pivot points on the handle. If the throat of the grip is in front of the pivot point line it is considered deflex, if it is behind the pivot point line it is considered reflex.
12-06-2005, 06:11 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
A deflex riser bow will have a higher brace height than a reflex riser bow which generally means it is a more forgiving bow. A reflex riser bow has a shorter brace height which usually translates into a higher performance bow and perhaps a bit less forgiving than a deflex riser bow.
True statementIF the two bows have differing brace heights, but only if. As per the example above it is naturally assumed that a deflex bow will have a deeper brace height than a reflex--- and normally they do, but the notion that a deflex riser is more forgiving is mythical when you compare apples to apples andboth bows have the same brace height and ATA and drawlength---as stated, the riser could be shaped like a banana and it would make no difference---it could have a 5" reflex for that matter but as long as it has the same brace, makes no difference.
Brace height andoverall ATA, along with cam design, are the controlling factors of forgiveness inany bow. Whenfactory techsspeak of "forgiving geometry" it is the common elements of these factors combined tothe most user-friendly configuration that they are talking about.
True statementIF the two bows have differing brace heights, but only if. As per the example above it is naturally assumed that a deflex bow will have a deeper brace height than a reflex--- and normally they do, but the notion that a deflex riser is more forgiving is mythical when you compare apples to apples andboth bows have the same brace height and ATA and drawlength---as stated, the riser could be shaped like a banana and it would make no difference---it could have a 5" reflex for that matter but as long as it has the same brace, makes no difference.
Brace height andoverall ATA, along with cam design, are the controlling factors of forgiveness inany bow. Whenfactory techsspeak of "forgiving geometry" it is the common elements of these factors combined tothe most user-friendly configuration that they are talking about.
12-06-2005, 07:52 AM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Sorry, Pinwheel, but I don't buy it. I don't care how long the guy's been building quality bows, he's wrong. I don't care how many triangles you draw on bows, it's still the deflex riser that's the more forgiving. In fact, a deflex riser bow would be a better fit to your triangles. So, maybe your triangles do tell you something. The bow that comes closer to fitting that triangle would be the more forgiving design.
Anyway, if the premise of his article were true, then my field scores with high bracke reflex riser bows should equal my scores with deflex riser bows. That is most assuredly NOT the case. My BEST score with a reflex riser bow is a solid 35 points lower than what I am accustomed to shooting with my ProTec, which is not as deflexed and gives me lower scores than I consistently shot with my ProVantage seriesbows.
You could say my form sucks. I wouldn't argue. I've been able to win more than my share of tournaments though, using bows that helped me compensate for my form problems. Believe it or not, just having a 33" draw is a serious form problem.
The bow's grip is a pivot point. It is being held in a human hand, which is connected to a highly flexible pivot - the wrist - which is connected to another pivot - the elbow - which is connected to yet another pivot - the shoulder.
A deflex riser bow is naturally a more stable shooting platform than a reflex riser. The grip pivot is in front of the limb pivots and cam. It holds steady because everything from the string to cams to limb pivots to the grip are all being pulled into alignment. The mechanical advantage is substantially reduced, which pretty much removes one pivot point from the equation.
The reflex riser puts the hand between the cams and the limb pivots.With the pivot pointbetween the cams and limb pivots, mechanical advantage is high. It is very easy to pull the string and cams in one direction while pushing the limb pivots in a completely different direction. It makes it a lot easier for all those other pivot points to affect the shot.
That is why mechanical advantage is NOT 'moot'. It can be CRITICAL, and the more prone you are to introducing torque into your grip, the more critical it becomes.
If you like reflex risers, then fine. Shoot the things. But don't go aroundsayingthey are just as forgiving as deflex riser bows. Mounted in a Hooter shooter, one will shoot exactly the same as the other. That much is true. However, once you put that human critter into the mix, then you have to look at kinetics and biometrics too, not just the mechanics of the bows themselves.
I swear, sometimes it seems like manufacturers assume all shooters are striving to be perfect little robots and are building bows to force is to become such. Bows must be mechanically correct,mechanical releases, mechanical rests, mechanical aiming devices and shot with mechanically perfect form. Hell on earth.
I'm not ready to surrender my humanity just yet. So, I like deflex riser bows that let me shoot well in spite of being human.
Anyway, if the premise of his article were true, then my field scores with high bracke reflex riser bows should equal my scores with deflex riser bows. That is most assuredly NOT the case. My BEST score with a reflex riser bow is a solid 35 points lower than what I am accustomed to shooting with my ProTec, which is not as deflexed and gives me lower scores than I consistently shot with my ProVantage seriesbows.
You could say my form sucks. I wouldn't argue. I've been able to win more than my share of tournaments though, using bows that helped me compensate for my form problems. Believe it or not, just having a 33" draw is a serious form problem.
The bow's grip is a pivot point. It is being held in a human hand, which is connected to a highly flexible pivot - the wrist - which is connected to another pivot - the elbow - which is connected to yet another pivot - the shoulder.
A deflex riser bow is naturally a more stable shooting platform than a reflex riser. The grip pivot is in front of the limb pivots and cam. It holds steady because everything from the string to cams to limb pivots to the grip are all being pulled into alignment. The mechanical advantage is substantially reduced, which pretty much removes one pivot point from the equation.
The reflex riser puts the hand between the cams and the limb pivots.With the pivot pointbetween the cams and limb pivots, mechanical advantage is high. It is very easy to pull the string and cams in one direction while pushing the limb pivots in a completely different direction. It makes it a lot easier for all those other pivot points to affect the shot.
That is why mechanical advantage is NOT 'moot'. It can be CRITICAL, and the more prone you are to introducing torque into your grip, the more critical it becomes.
If you like reflex risers, then fine. Shoot the things. But don't go aroundsayingthey are just as forgiving as deflex riser bows. Mounted in a Hooter shooter, one will shoot exactly the same as the other. That much is true. However, once you put that human critter into the mix, then you have to look at kinetics and biometrics too, not just the mechanics of the bows themselves.
I swear, sometimes it seems like manufacturers assume all shooters are striving to be perfect little robots and are building bows to force is to become such. Bows must be mechanically correct,mechanical releases, mechanical rests, mechanical aiming devices and shot with mechanically perfect form. Hell on earth.
I'm not ready to surrender my humanity just yet. So, I like deflex riser bows that let me shoot well in spite of being human.
12-06-2005, 08:06 AM
#28
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
A deflex riser bow is naturally a more stable shooting platform than a reflex riser. The grip pivot is in front of the limb pivots and cam. It holds steady because everything from the string to cams to limb pivots to the grip are all being pulled into alignment. The mechanical advantage is substantially reduced, which pretty much removes one pivot point from the equation.
Any imperfections in form will be magnified with a reflexed riser which puts the grip behind the limb pivots.
12-06-2005, 08:17 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Fact is most of us are shooting , and the manufacturers are producing reflexed bows . Id bet 95% of us are shooting reflexed bows , how much they are reflexed Im sure affects grip toqure .
Someone please list some deflexed bows
The original poster asked about axil to axil , opposed to brace , and axil to axil has allways made much more of a diferance in my grouping ability than a short high brace bow , and that translates to better broadhead flight and tuneing allso . I guess it boils down to the fact that its harder to grip toqure a long bow as opposed to a short bow , and that is a demond of mine . Some dont realize that just because you think you have an open grip does not necessarily meen you are not toqureing the bow .
Someone please list some deflexed bows
The original poster asked about axil to axil , opposed to brace , and axil to axil has allways made much more of a diferance in my grouping ability than a short high brace bow , and that translates to better broadhead flight and tuneing allso . I guess it boils down to the fact that its harder to grip toqure a long bow as opposed to a short bow , and that is a demond of mine . Some dont realize that just because you think you have an open grip does not necessarily meen you are not toqureing the bow .
12-06-2005, 08:45 AM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: brace height, riser or ATA
Someone please list some deflexed bows