Snooky,
I hope you have not misunderstood me, as what I said is actually in complete agreement with you. I said that a pointer may need "guidance" to learn what you want. For example, a pointer needs to have the natural ability to point, but he must generally be taught "whoa." A dog that does not naturally point really actually only learns "whoa," instead of naturally pointing, just like you pointed out. I also stated that if a dog does not have the "drive" to look for something and then naturally point it out, then it's not the real deal. Like I said, ability and drive are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion. I hope you did not misread my post. I could not tell from your reply if you are "putting me in my place," . If so, you might take another look. Nice post. You, too, Doc E

I can tell I will be the red-headed stepchild in this thread. All dogs have a genetic tendency to point, from a bichon to a deerhound. One can watch a coyote pause just before it pounces. Most failures in the field trail dogs when training spaniels fail because the flush isn't hard enough, they PAUSE. Teaching a dog to "stand" game is what one does with pointers. We teach them they can't catch the bird. Conversely, with flushing dogs we teach them they can always catch the bird, or enough to make them think the can. What one teaches with the wing is the dog can't catch the feathers. This is what I did with the release trap. I would bring the dog into the scent cone, whoa him, and if he whoaed I would relaese the bird and shoot it. The retrieve was his "pot of gold". If the dog didn't whoa, I released the bird and let it fly away. This taught the dog he couldn't get the bird. I have seen this method used by pointing dog trainers for generations. Am I missing something here? Aren't we using the predisposed desire to pause, to ingrain a point. I have seen retievers of all breeds stop on the flush and flash point near the end of a long bird season. What is said is the same, gotta start working the clips so the flush gets harder. My pointers and red setters had enough style to win in shooting dog field trials (you know horse back trials), With high head and tails. I think we are enamoured with the pointing instinct but it is not all that different from dog to dog. This is why you will never hear me say the pointing lab movement will ruin the retrieving instinct of the breed. It's just foolishness. One can be thrilled with a sight pointing pup, I never was. I didn't play the wing on a fishing pole game with my pointing dog pups. I thought it taught bad habits, crowding, sight pointing and a longer list than I want to go into. This is why America is so great. WE CAN DISAGREE, which we do. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I believe one can train a dog to point and not be able to tell the difference between the "natural pointer" and the "stander".

Dr Fatguy

First of all, I am now trying to put anyone in their place. nor am I trying to be a know it all. I am just trying to put my views and input into the thread and hopefully add something for food for thought. If it appears as anything, just write it off as my lack of tact and communication skills. I see some (and not just on this board) that think stopping and remaining motionless equals a point. I don't think this is true although this is achieved in the point but isn't what a point is. A horse can be taught to whoa but not to point. When a dog is led into the scent cone and is commanded, " whoa" before he points, we are teaching "whoa". A point is when a dog stops and freezes at the smell of game, without a command. The command then can be used to teach the dog to "hold" that pose until released by verbal, touch, or flush signals. That is my views and I expect some to disagree but, what would a board be if everyone were in agreement on everything? I wouldn't spend much time there. Disagreement without becoming dissagreeable is what it's all about.

Snooky,
Right you are -- right you are

Snooky, I realize this. It just seemed that your post was saying the exact same thing as mine did, but as if you disagreed with me. I just wanted to make it clear that what I said may have been misunderstood. That is, my post supported your post and visa versa, so I just wanted to make my point clear if it was, at first, unclear.

One good thing about hunting dogs is if you like what you have and it works for you to generate a good time afield, then you've got it made. I may talk up ability and drive to be what makes a dog, but really that is just what I like in a dog. Yes, that is my thoughts, that a good hunting dog should have both naturally, but I think whatever a guy likes is great for him. We can set our own standards, and if our dogs accomplish what we'd like, then we can be glad. If drfatguy likes his dogs and the way they hunt, then I guess I should not tell him what standard to hold. I know that if I invited a guy to come on a squirrel/coon hunt with my cur, and then he started telling me right there in the woods everything my dog doesn't do that he should do, I'd probobly tell him to get lost and go to his own woods with his own dog, then. So, drfatguy, if you can train a dog to hold still to scent and manage to fill your sack, then power to you and I respect that. I don't see any redheaded stepchild.

See I told you we would disagree. This makes the world go round. Perspective is what we are talking about. If I train a pointer (the breed with the strongest pointing instinct) to point my way and it wins a pointing dog trial, is it instinct or is he standing his game? I whoaed him into the scent cone. He learned to point this way. Is he pointing or standing? He stops when he smells birds. He could be blowing and going at 300 yards from me while I'm on horse back and he still stops when he smells bird scent. I mean a high stationed, every muscle quivering stop. Is he pointing or standing? What's the difference? I've had far more experience training flushers than pointers but I've had quite a bit with the pointers so I need you to explain why my dogs weren't pointing by being whoaed.
Dr Fatguy

Could it be that we are confused by what part of the performance is learned and what part is taught. How did you teach your dog to be so intense that he quivers when being whoaed? Mine only appear that way when on an instinctive point. Giving a command of any kind to them at that point only tends to lessen the intensity of the point. The only time I want to speak to my dog on point is when his body language tells me he is fixing to break. A whoa then tells him you better not move a muscle until I release you and the learned "whoa command" prevents him from making a mistake while he continues to hold an instinctive point. What part, or point, am I missing here?

Snooky,
I don't think you are missing anything here. We are probably saying the same thing. After my dogs started to stop when scenting a bird, I stopped whoaing them except as a reminder to watch their manners. What a dog does frequently he learns to like. The dog my son and I are training now is a Jagdterrier. These little German dogs hunt everything. He hated to learn obedience. Now he is doing it. NOW HE LIKES IT. The same holds true with retrieving. Force training him was a pain, now he likes it. If the rapport and desire is there you can train a dog to do and like most everything. I've seen pointing Dobes. It can be done, but it takes a ton of work.

Dr Fatguy