First of all, I am now trying to put anyone in their place. nor am I trying to be a know it all. I am just trying to put my views and input into the thread and hopefully add something for food for thought. If it appears as anything, just write it off as my lack of tact and communication skills. I see some (and not just on this board) that think stopping and remaining motionless equals a point. I don't think this is true although this is achieved in the point but isn't what a point is. A horse can be taught to whoa but not to point. When a dog is led into the scent cone and is commanded, " whoa" before he points, we are teaching "whoa". A point is when a dog stops and freezes at the smell of game, without a command. The command then can be used to teach the dog to "hold" that pose until released by verbal, touch, or flush signals. That is my views and I expect some to disagree but, what would a board be if everyone were in agreement on everything? I wouldn't spend much time there. Disagreement without becoming dissagreeable is what it's all about.