Question for you dog owners. How do you feel about AKC? I use to own an english setter back in the early 80's and since haven't really been in situation to own another. Recently, i've been researching stage and was looking at getting another engish setter.

Back then the english setter and pointer dominated the field trail scene due to numbers and everyone avoided AKC but registered them under Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB) mainly because they didn't want the setters and pointers to go by way of the irish setter twenty years before (back in the 50's and 60's irish setters were pretty good field dogs apparently). The english setter I had we had flown in from the south, famous lineage, and an excellent hunting dog.

Researching now is discouraging. I've seen the field trails held by AKC. Field trails in the 80's had some problems, but nothing which couldn't be fixed. AKC trails seem totally different now. It seems like emphsis is placed upon how your dog listen to commands, where the field trail judge directs you to the bird and you direct the dog. In the 'old' trails, two birds were planted in the field and the judge didn't tell you. It depended upon your dog's ability to hunt those birds, including any wild birds. The trail lasted about an hour to complete because of the distances you covered on horseback.

I figured field trails would be good measuring stick but I dont know now. I'm torn between the english setter but do not really want AKC because its an 'unknown' factor to me. I'm considering a Llwellen setter but will have to fly one into Wash state.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? How can a bench or show type english setter do any serious hunting? Any show lines bred into a breed can't be good. Are there any hardcore upland bird ol' timers around who can compare the breed from those times? Anyone ever shot over a Llwellen and an AKC Setter? People here I've met pheasant hunting use mostly flushing labs and springers. I really want a dog that will be able to sniff out a bird at 50' or so. 75' in high winds and will naturally quarter a field. That is what I'd expect from a typical field dog.

Sorry for the long post but owning and training a dog takes alot of commitment.

I would suggest you check out this link for The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association http://www.navhda.com/ they don't have stud books for setters however do allow them to test with NAVHDA. They do testing not competition. Each dog is rated on its own performance and not against the other dogs that are entered in testing. If you can find a pup from a mother and/or a father that received a Prize I from NAVHDA in the Natural ability or Utility test you are talking about a good sound dog, and a Prize II will most likely produce a fine hunting dog for the average hunters needs.


Good luck to you on finding a quality dog.

Thanks Jashoffa, I've checked NAVHDA site but a navhda dog isn't really for me. I would have a hard enough time training a dog for upland birds to include ducks and vise versa. Plus, I enjoy watching a good pointing dog work and would love to train another one.

I did find the FDSB site which list kennels for FDSB registered setters. I even recognized some of early pedigree. Amazing. All FDSB field trials are mostly held in the SouthEast with one in AZ and TX and surpisingly several are held in Japan. Bad news is english pointers have been dominating the last twenty years. Makes sense, not many AKCers breed and show pointers.

A simple history about FDSB (which does these trials - FDSB and American Field are one and the same) is at the AKC site: http://www.akc.org/dic/events/fieldt...y_pointing.cfm

After all this, I will probably fly in one of these setters, Llewelyn, or pointer.

For a setter or a pointer, the FDSB is the MOST important registration. NAVHDA is for versatile dogs, not really what a guy after a true big running and gunning dog is after. Look to All-Age class dogs for horseback ranges, shooting dog class for foot hunters.

First I want to say I am not trying to start an argument, I am just letting you know my stance. For the record NAVHDA dogs are pointing dogs as well as retrieving dogs. A NAVHDA tested dog that has a Prize I, II or III has passed the test. Getting a Dog from a Dame or Sire that have tested and received a prize from NAVHDA is just evidence of the dog's ability.

The Natural Ability Test which is designed to evaluate the inherent natural abilities of young dogs and gain insight into their possible usefulness as versatile gun dogs. It rates seven important inherited abilities: nose, search, tracking, pointing, water, desire and cooperation.

The only ability in the test, one could argue, that is not necessary for an upland dog is water and even there I know I hunt a lot of river and stream banks and buffer strips in which a wounded bird tends to find its way to the waters edge or even in the water before the dog is able to retrieve it.

I guess I am not a fan of the field trial dog. I have never hunted behind one however I have read several books and a lot of articles on field trials vs. useful hunting ability and IMO Field Trial dogs are breed for field trial compitition and not for real life hunting ability.

Jashoffa, I understand your argument. For me, I only have experience with a field trail setter and pointer. Our current dog is a AKC goldie who was suppose to come from 'champion hunters' really has no real desire for birds the times I've taken her out but became a great companion dog, very smart who developed a sense of humor.

On checking out the NAVHDA site, the 2004 past results only a handful of pointers and setters. Not really much to go on and not really from the SouthEast. So, again I'm in the same situation since not many from those states do NAVHDA testing. (I think water test turns them off - my setter would have failed it miserably) NAVHDA is great if you're going to do ducks and upland birds but I would much rather do just upland birds.

The setter I owned was from field trail lines but her range was 75'-100' which was perfect for me. She naturally started pointing birds at around 4 or 5 mo. and started quartering the field the first time out. Depending upon the wind, birds within 40'-50' or so she'd find. (she would point birds 10' away sometimes so we would beat the bush around her.) Apparently, Llewelyn's have these characteristics also but was wondering if setters still do. Pointers are too standoff-ish for me and range too far.

Mite,
I know I am not going to change your mind. However the things you are talking about I have seen NAVHDA dogs Do wonderfully. If a NAVHDA tested dog isn't what you want then nothing I am going to say will change your mind. And I can see how Geographical area could be a problem. But like I said Duck work is only one part of the NAVHDA test and to be honest with you I don't Duck hunt. Of course my dog is not HAVHDA tested either. I have how ever helped train a few dogs that tested with NAVHDA, pudelpointers and Braque Francais. I have hunted over them too. They prized well and were very good to excellent hunters. They pointed Birds 15 feet away. Both, force broke to retrieve, retrieved reliably to hand. And they worked out and quartered a field very well.

Now that you have me thinking about it, if a setter is what your are set on, or you are looking at a Llewelyn (I have never heard of), perhaps NAVHDA is not standard of dog you want to look for. I would encourage you to at least humor the possibility of getting another breed of dog. A GSP, or one of the many other versatile hunting breeds. If you can get the chance to hunt over the parents of a dog you are interested in that is maybe the best test of all to determine how well the pups will hunt.

Good luck you to in what ever you decide to do!

Keep me posted I am interested to see what you end up finding.

I've heard of Braque Francais. They are suppose to have great noses and great family dogs, but alittle timid. I would love to hunt with one if I get a chance. I guess the only way I would consider to purchase a dog will be to see the parents really hunt. I'm not dead set on getting a setter but the only breeds I've hunting with are britts, pointers, and setters. Out of the three, the setter suited me best. The only yard stick I have is field trial lines. Here in west wash they use retrievers and springers, so even GSP are rare, the only ones I've seen are AKC show dogs.

If you want to know about Llewellins (correct spelling) go to

http://www.llewellin.com/whatis.htm

Kind of biased opinion but AKC doesnt recognised the breed but FDSB does.

you know IMO AKC has ruened good sporting breeds breeding them for the show ring. They, to often, are bred for the breed standards instead of hunting ability. Don't get me wrong breed standards are good. But good in the show ring doesn't translate to good in the field. On the same note I think that If you are gong to get a dog like a lab you have to make sure you are buying from a hunting breeder as may breeders breed labs primarly for house pets and don't care about breeding hunting ability.

Do you want to see some GSP hunt?
If you want a setter I don't really know where to point you, no pun intended. A lot of fellas in the east still use them for Grouse but I believe they have been bred almost strictly for the purpose of Grouse due to the lack of Quail these days. You might post this topic in their regional forum if you haven't already done so. Had a setter when I was akid, a gift from a birdhunter, the dog was gunshy. Hampton was the dogs name. He was a beautiful animal.
Are you foot hunting? Horseback Hunting?
Send me a PM and I'll give you some refernces for the GSP I know about. Some run big, Quail, and some are close working, Pheasant. I've had fun following shorthairs for the last 1/2 dozen years and they are hunters not show dogs even though they are AKC registered, so if you are intrested let me know.