mustad

After reading your initial post again, I see now what you are saying. In your example, my concern would be more when the dog breaks on "careful." That seems to be where there would be risk especially if you're using a nick to try to correct this. Personally, I don't like to talk this much with the dog on point. I prefer to let the bird teach the dog that creeping isn't allowed. Once the bird is flightbound, I don't have to worry as much about the dog blinking when corrected. If the dog continues to creep, it's a good sign that more yardwork is needed.

That said, I have had to nick a dog to prevent it from creeping; but as I said earlier this was a very last resort with a dog that has the amount of drive and desire that there would be little risk in getting the dog to blink.

EODLT

I only use careful as a pre-whoa. If the dog is locked on point and not tring to reset or chase a bird. If he starts to creep up a little bit, I will give a "careful", * When I go to flush, I give a "whoa", meaning to stay put no matter what until he is released... If he refuses my "whoa" he is nicked. I dont nick for ignoring my careful, its really more of just a reminder than a command, whoa is a command though.

PA GOBBLER

I would be very careful using the ecollar.from what Mite is saying he don't use one much and i think that could cause problems. [/align]

Phil from Maine

I have to agree with the fact if you do not need it,do not use it.. I can't help but to wonder what everyone did before the e-collar came around? I like to think of my dogs has hunting buddies verses my hunting slave, do as I say cause you will.. or else.. Just my opion to it for whatever it is worth. I do not feel the e-collar is a cure all do all..

tailcrackin

It is, but then isnt a fix, what the ecollar does......if taught properly.......is an extension of the check cord. It will alow a fair correction with the dog.....afterdog has been taught what the collar is being used for.

Now old schoolers would do several things alot harsher to the dogs for breaking.

Times have changed, if you do the foundation properly an dont cut corners, and dont be in a big hurry to get the check cord off, it will all show itself over time. You be fair to dog an it will be fair with you, teach the what an how, let the dog show you it is understanding the what and how, and there is not any confusion, between you and the dog. During the steadying process, put the dog in a sucessful environment.....and it will succeed. Dogs will tell (show) you when they are ready to go to he next level.
Thanks Jonesy

Mite

This is alittle off topic but still relates to my observations. A question first.

How smart do you think a dog really is?

I don't mean cognitive ability like solving a puzzle, but how easy does it learn a behavior or command. I've been thinking about pre-conditioning and how it relates to training. One book, How to train gun dogs train themselves, Joan Bailey gives a pretty good answers that she gained from behaviorist. The rest of the book I question.

Her premiss are:
Dog's capacity to learn within the first year is more than any other years. (using wolves for behavior)
During the first year, the dog learns from the pack leader, ie. tries to keep the pack leader happy.

Now, this question: Do dog's learn by repetition or association?

Let me explain. Alot of training method depend upon repetition. Treat training in particular. You show the treat, command the dog, then reward it. Simple. Repeat as necessary. You now have a condition response. Take away the treat, command the dog.Through repetition the dog makes the mental leap and obeys. You actually changed the conditioned behavior. Now, did the dog actually learned it or is this just another conditioned response?

You try to create a senario that resembles the actualconditions. You repeat the senario until you get the response you want. That's becomes the conditioned response. The dog goes through the motions. Then you hope the dog can make the mental leap.

In this conditioned response, it's basically saying that dogs are stupid. They can't learn untilthey go thrusomething similar over and over. Then transition (if senario is close to actual conditions) should be automatic.

Now, assocation. If the dog learns by assocation then why all this conditioningand repeatition?For example, teaching woah, you teach it once.You only repeatexplaining (showing)what you (pack leader) wants. Then it makes the association Word - do something - leader happy. Then you try different things to make sure it knows it, that is, woah from the back, front, when walking, etc. Those are for your assurance but the dog has learned woah. You are teaching one association but changing the environment.

Final question: are older dogs harder to teach? This is just brain development. In wolves, by age two they are already full members of the pack andare havinglitters themselves. I noticed my dog stop being inquisitive around the same age.

These are just observations I made and my opinions. I'm sure they'll change as time goes. But it seems tome that thepack leadermentality, wanting to make the pack leader happy and a dog learns by association is correct. If correct, then the pup can be taught at a very early ageby actually do it instead of repeating a senario likemock fetching.

As for why did my dogconstantly breakwoah during training, Jonesy hit it. I was reading my dog correctly but my dog wasn't reading me. I wasn't putting enough inflection into my voicewhile praising or I wasn'tdistinct enough with it. I was just saying 'good girl' and pattingher on the head.Well, it wasn't enough to distinquish it between my normal behavior.

meese

I'm not training or anything, but just for future reference, what's an ecollar?

tailcrackin

Sam,[/align][/align]Ok, this is a good part of the topic, most don't stop an think about. [/align][/align]A dog is very smart when you work with and help them figure out how to handle....the work, the handle, hunt, game, and retrieve if necessary. What tends to happen is the person gets in a hurry because it don't see an immediate response in what was taught today.......the people don't allow the space of learning to be shown by the dog. So they start trying something different, dog still don't show, so they change again.....before you know it dogs all boogered up, it don't know which way to turn, and then it turns into the dogs fault, never the person's. The person did not stay consistent with the program.[/align][/align]Dogswill learn by both means, if you will have the patience to let them. You teach steady work, by repetition...in different situations. The association, is overlayment of the bird into the fieldwork of repetition........it all stays the same, bird flush, you use ecollar, you say whoa if ya need......it all comes back to just stop and stand. When you teach the dog how to stop and stand, the exact way you taught it...."HERE".....teach it the same way"THERE" that way there is no confusion. Its just like retrievers, sit means sit....why say stay? Dogs don't understand English...stay would mean sit also.....right??[/align][/align]You mentioned the motions......the training program....along with repetition, an association..........is the motions. If you don't have the dog on a check cord an have it under control....along with the bird....what will get learned by the dog.....that it can get away with anything it wants. As we see with all the internet dog boogers, most get in a hurry to get the dog off the check cord, and free run with e-collar. So it is really a mis-read of the dog. If you set the dog and the bird up, to beunder a controlled situation, the dog will learn, because there is no room for slips.When the dog isn't allowed slips, or major slips, it tightens up on the staunchness, before you know it, you can turn your back on the dog, and not have to get the bird outta there, dog is showing you its understanding what we have taught it. It is trying to be steady.[/align][/align]When you move to the front and get the bird up, because of dog coming with you.....check cord don't need to be off, he isn't showing you anything but not being ready to go to the next part of training. Or if half way does it right, Or lets say 4 outta5 times, over the last 3-4 days....its still not right, the dog hasn't gotten enough under his belt to have the fair corrections needed. That is a situation where you cant trust what the dog has shown you before. It isn't ready to move on.[/align][/align]A dog will always read the voice the eyes and the touch. We have to decipher when or what to do. Some dogs wiggle outta there skin when we speak, so don't do it, some will do on the touch, don't do it. You can pet an talk to when the session is done. Keep the dog tight through the work, so it doesn't slip, and before you know it, dogs turning out to be a class act. I don't whoa a dog, I am not going intimidate the dog to do what I ask. I show it an build from there. If it don't wanna point what it smells, bump the bird, we shouldn't be pointing the bird for it, people say its not why they teach it.[/align]But it sure does overlay into the bird work, very, often. Hope this helps you out Sam, Thanks, Jonesy[/align]

PA GOBBLER

Jonesy that is a great explanation and very good post[/align]

Mite

Jonesy,
I agree with PA Gobbler but I thinking in a more fundamental sense. Yourtips are great and should be in a training book but thinking about training methods, like evaluating different training methods. For birddogs thats hard because there's no getting around overlaying.You can't represent actual hunting. You can only mimic it like field trialsdo (that's if you only need a hunting dog; FTs are something else again).

Retrieving work is one command in which yard work can closely resemble field work. I have never considered FF my dog because I don't mind picking the bird up.Simple retrieving work would be nice but not really essential. So, whenmy dog was young, I did the hallway and the yard, toss, checkchord trick. When she was older, I tossa ball and say fetch afew times, sheran, picked it up and dropped it within a few feet of me (which was great).

Now, I tossa ball and say fetch, she runs to it and picks it upbut I have to userecall if I want the ball again.

I could stand and make her fetch but then it would be FF, hold the object, then 'give' or a pinch. I don't need FF because I don't shoot that many birds a year andshe won't be exposed to the command fetch enough.

If I were to do it, in this case w/o worrying about steadying her fetch up, would this have worked instead of the hallway and yard &checkchord trick?

(I would do this at theage of4-5 months old.)

I put a checkchord on her. I then get a pheasant wing (to represent the bird or better yet a frozen coturnix quail). I let her get used to the smell. I then place it on the ground in front of her. Say 'fetch' excitedly thensomehow make her pick upthe wingand make her drop it in my hand. Praise her loudly. Repeat until she gets it correctly.

At this point, she should have made an association: "fetch" - pickup wing and drop it - he's happy.

So then any subsequent variation, like toss it to the left, right, in the bushes, is still the same lesson and using the same association you built previously: "fetch" - pick up wing and drop it - he's happy.

In a sense, that is what you would do to force fetch. Place the dog on a table for better control, teach it step by step what you want done. But FF is pressure applied, where there is nothing I wrote above has pressure. The only repeating is done is to show the dog whats need as opposed to constantly repeating a routine like saying fetch then tossing a toy then pulling her in.

It's like an average house dog.Say'come' and it comes. Say 'sit' and it sits. Say 'stay' and walk away and it stays. Now, instead mix it up. Say 'sit' and it will still come to you first. It won't do what you told it to do, that is 'sit' on the spot. Or say 'stay' and it will likely just come to you and sit. It's conditioned to a routine. That's different from FF because in FF you are teaching the dog exactly what you want. There's no routine. It takes awhile but you only have to teach it once in the dog's lifetime (unless it forgets). You don't FF a dog during summer then FF again before hunting season then FF again the next summer, etc.

So, in this case I would go directly to a simplifed FF without the pressure (pinch). Would that work?