Best Pointer?
 

I currently have a lab, and I am looking at getting a pointer to work with it. I hunt pheasants in Iowa. I have limited experience with pointers, I have only hunted with vizsla (sp). What is the best pointer for Iowa Pheasant hunting?

RE: Best Pointer?
 

birttany is my dog of choice exellent pointer vey easy to train

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I would agree, My opinion is etheir Brittany, German Shorthair, or even vizla, but i'd want it from gun dog kennel. Here is afriend of minesweb site, he's got some very nice dogs, www.DellingersDogs.com Tell him that jonesy sent you , he's next to Gainesville georgia. Very honest, and very biddable dogs. Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

One more thing, make sure the dog is broke, or steady, if you get a pointing dog, its a bad cross to hunt with flushing breed, If not broke, pointing dog will fall to peices. Thanks Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Do you get a commission for these dogs you attempt to sell, crackin'?:D

obbie, Over 50 years I've owned and trained about all kinds of pointers except Brits. I hunt tough country and I've just seen too many Brits give up in the sand burrs and cactus, so I've just never acquired one.

I've hunted behind some Brits in Kansas and Nebraska that did OK on pheasants, but I don't think you'd go wrong with a shorthair. There is a lot of variance in the ranges within the breed, so do your homework and get a pup or dog that fits you. DON'T mail order a pup because some pro recommends it.

Find some folks near you and ask to watch the parents work. Most apples don't fall too far from the tree and the pups will likely work similar. UNLESS, some knucklehead has bred a big runnin dog with a bootlicker thinkin' he will get a medium-range dog. That doesn't happen. Some dogs will take after one parent and some after the other. That won't likely happen unless you buy from a backyard breeder.

I have a couple of shorthairs that are hunted primarily on wild runnin' bobs, but they have no trouble adapting to pheasants. One is a big medium-range male and the other is about as big running bitch as you'll see for a shorthair. For Iowa, I'd get a medium-range dog.

I love the looks of Vizlas and have thought about getting one. My experience with them is very limited, but I've judged a couple and although they were beautiful physical specimens I wouldn't have hauled either one home if you'd given them to me.

I've hunted behind some guide Vizlas on pheasant in Kansas that did a good job hunting small coverts and were absolutely great on retrieving and cripples.

But, like Crackin said, if you get a Vizla, make sure it comes from hunting lines. The pool of good hunting Vizlas is much smaller than GSP's.

One of my dog's dam is out of Cajun's Kennels in Iowa and she and her mama are good dogs. I'll put her up against most EP's and setters on wild runnin bobs anyday.

I'm not a pro and have never used one although I know a couple that sorta wrote the books on dog training. But I've been around a lot of dogs in a half-century of bird hunting and my advice to the inexperienced is that training dogs isn't nearly as complicated as some make it out to be.

Get a good-blooded dog that fits your needs, teach it to whoa and you have a meat dog. And really, that's all most hunters expect.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Whew, I wish I made a commision. I'd have money coming in from coast to coast, well now lets really get into opinions. For the average weekend hunter, getting any breed as a pup, will be the best choice. And actually hes got the best all around breed already at the house. I have been a pro for 15 yrs, I do retrievers, for hunting and competition, I do bird dogs all breeds for hunting, walking comp, horseback comp. so I personally get to see all different flavors. Now he does not have to call any of my connections, that is his choice, and whoever he goes to might say on the phone that they have the dog, he gets there and nothing suits his fancy, thats his choice. I think it's like buying a car. Now since I started this site, most of you have had disbelief, in myself and what I say. Thats fine, its your opinion. But what I don't understand is why everything that I have suggested to do to fix the problem, no one has come back and said " Jonesy that did not work " and there will be times that will happen. Until then you dont offer to many suggestions, because the handlers, then the dogs get confused. So I try to keep everything black and white, for both, as you have read, I explain what and why, then ask if they have questions or if they understand. This is what I believe, I am honest with the handlers, and honest with the dogs. I don't believe in Quick Training, I don't care if it takes a week or month, until I read the dog and it accepts the teaching it is not goin on any further, sobefore the dog leaves it and the owner will understand what and why. This is fair to both. I think dogs all the time, this is a way to help, I don't care if I get a client off of here, what I want is you to go away thinking, "wow, that makes sense." If you have read in my other posts, I always say Patience!! It pays off in long run. So what we should be doin, instead of testing me, is trying to once again help someone out with the questions. How about we ask what kinda of terrain, or what he would or is thinking of what he'd like to have, not ourselves. Then we'll work together off of that. Like I said earlier, have you ever hunted both styles together, flushing and pointing?? You better expect some mistakes to happen, if both are young dogs. What about springer spaniel, Jeff Bryson in Lapeer Mich. has an awsome dog, retrieves does whatever he's huntin. Grouse pheas quail. German shorts are nice also, I just broke one for a grouse dog, for Les Sandridge, an ins. man in Stanton Virginia. Bought as pup, I believe the dog learnsthrough the time spent by the owner. It can go on and on. Please do not feel that I am being smart in any way. The biggest part of Jonesy's gun dogs, is finding dogs for people, and fixing all the man made errors. Thanx, I will not lead you a stray, Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

www.vdd-gna.org


nuff said.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Jonsey, I don't disagree with much of what you post about training dogs. But the guy asks what time it is and now you're telling us all how to build a clock?:D

I like to see folks that ask for advice on the net to get good advice, too and I am a little confused that your first response in which you admonish the guy to get a broke dog. (Some might think this is a pro's bias.) Then in your big fat paragraph on dog training and your dressing down of anyone who might disagree with you, you recommend a getting a pup. Confusing. I don't think it matters-- just up to the owner as to whether he is willing to invest the time in a pup or wants a dog that can hunt out of the box.

So far as folks testin' you. I haven't. But unsolicited advice is going to rub folks the wrong way, especially when you give it to folks that don't need it.

I didn't ask about terrain, because I know what Iowa pheasant hunting is like. And I didn't recommend shorthairs because they are MY favorite breed. They aren't.

I'm not gettin' down on you and I think you're generally a good resource for folks here. I don't give much dog training advice on boards because so many experts always want to trash your technique and substitute theirs.If you're gonna post on a board like this, you might as well get used to it.

obby, The point Jonsey made of hunting a pointer with a flusher is a good one. I wouldn't do it. I have done it once against my better judgement and it confirmed my thoughts on the matter. I've heard of folks that do it, but it can lead to bad habits in a pointer, especially a young one that isn't steady.

One thing about owning a pointer vs a flusher for upland game is that you can always hunt bigger country with them. You can rein it a big runnin' dog , but you can't put wheels on one that wasn't born with them.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

You can't build a clock without parts, you can't do a dog without foundation, you said that you've been here for 50 yrs. I learnt that in first 5, then learn more and more each dog. Well if he gets a pup of any breed, if he'll spend lots of time with it, dog will learn were to be in the timber where to be in field. If he gets a broke dog, the flushing in front will not be as bad, as you stated in your 6th paragraph. So this boils down to amount of money to spend. I didn't ask about the terrain either, I was bor and raised in central illinois, born and raised on pheasants, in illinois, iowa, ohio, and North dakota. So this can give him time to think about what he is doing. As far as being an expert, far from, but I have been fortunate enough to learn and spend time with alot of the greatest, this is where you learn. About seven years ago I got to train with one of the most greatest hands with all breeds that i feel that there is, he is what taught me honesty with the dog. Maurice Lindley of LindleysKennelis an awsome individual. So if the foundation IS built, the dog in the long run will turn out to be a much better dog. It is amazing how many dogs are screwed up because of ignorance. The most classic is taking a bird dog to a dove shoot for gun association. I don't know.My opinion is that, Ibelieve, that foundation is the better start of a nice companion in the field. So everybody else can do it there way , thats fine, but its the foundation that should have been taught, that you go back on to fix the problems. In which is where I have tried to help other friends with their problems with the dogs. So thats cool, no biggie, life is good. Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I would definitley say German Shorthairs. They work close and listen well and have top notch noses. They normally have a natural ability to nail down running birds as well. They also make wonderful pets/companions. Brittanies are way to timid for my taste.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Well fellas....Pointer and flusher is a tough combo... I have seen broke dogs that another dog flushing rattled them pretty good! I think you both had valid points. I personally would not trade my GSP for anything.. I can't take the hair of a Brit or Setter. Jonesy alot of your advice I have read seems to be on the mark. I train with a professional trainer your advice seems to go along with his.... He has not steered me wrong yet....

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I hunt my GSP with a buddy's lab without any problems. They work apart from each other and I can only think of one time the lab flushed my GSP's bird while she had it on point and my GSP didn't have a problem with it or show any signs of being less steady. Keep in mind that my gsp was like 3 years old before she hunted with this lab, maybe that makes some differance.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

My opinion, there aint but two kinds of birddogs, pointers and setters.
No offense to you shorthair and britt guys!

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I'm with you blueditch I have a pointer and it just flat out hunts any other breed i put itin field with. Smart, tough,athletic, and a vaccume cleaner for a nose!! pointers are hard to beat.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

B.S. Shorthair is only part of the name, German Shorthaired Pointer!

As long as the dog finds birds, that is what matters.

Different breeds excel in different situations. To say onebreed is a bird dog and the other isn't when both are bred to hunt birds is just plain absurd. Just because a GSP or a Brittany isn't what you prefer doesn't mean that they wouldn't suit someone else very well.

Why don't you just say there are only two kinds of guns, Brownings and Rugers? I will tell you why, because there is a plethora of other guns out there and to limit your approval to just those two may cause you or anyone to whom you give advise to miss out on the perfect gun for them.

If you want to suggest a breed to someone why not give the person some info other than “Trust Blueditfdich42, because he likes pointers and setters one would be the prefect dog for you.” Why is a Pointer or Setter a good choice? What does each one have over a GSP? Give the person asking the question some info he can base a decision on.

[jashoffa steps off his soap box]

I am not trying to start something (that has been done enough on this thread) just feel like Obby1 deserves some info to help him decide what to do.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

BLUEDITCH42 DO YOU NOT REALIZE THAT BRITS ARE SETTERS
THEY ARE ALSO THE ONLY SETTERS THAT POINT

AND YES GSP THE P IS FOR POINTER

RE: Best Pointer?
 

RUFNECK
Clarification please. I thought the Brittany descended fromthe spaniel like the English, Gordon, and Irish (including Reds) setters. Setters were develop to 'set' when finding birds so they could use nets. Versitiles were developed because they where the jack-of-all-trades forthe single non-gentry owner. Don't know the history of the Brittany and too lazy to find out.

Speaking generalities, I would sugget obby1 still refrain from running a pointer with a flusher unless he's willing to make sure the flusher will honor point. I also experience that with my young setter. Bad idea.

If he has to get a pointer type then I would suggest aenglish pointer or wide ranging setter - thinking open fields here. A GSP/Brit will do if it runs big at least bigger than your lab. (But then you already have a retriever so why go versitile?) I'm saying this because the dogs won't be hunting the same area at the same time. Pointer can find birds further out and the lab can pick up strays the pointer missed. I would also suggest a broke dog. A puppy is going to build bad habits if the lab doesn't honor. Then you will have a dog that flushes too far in front.

Ifhe does go versitile and your lab doesn't honor, then you will eventually end up with another lab in versitile clothing but won't be able to mark as well.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

your right i was half asleep when i wrote that was thinking spaniel when you wrote setter sorry about that oh and no im not lazy was just made a mistake it happens
i run a brit and shes a very good pointer but yes she comes from the spaniel family sorry for getting you upset but dont be calling people lazy you dont know[>:]

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I also agree about not getting a pointer unless your willing to spend the cash to train it right or your pointer will break on the birds good luck

RE: Best Pointer?
 

LOL. No I'm calling myself lazy :eek:. I thought you knew somehistory about Brittanies and was asking for more info because I'm too lazy to look it up.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

lol its funny how fast something can get spun out of control well thanks for understanding and not calling me lazy lol
its nice how most people on here are very understanding

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Jashoffa, LIKE I SAID BEFORE IN MY POST. JUST MY OPINION. AND NO OFFENSE TO YOU GSP AND BRITT GUYS!!! I have hunted over many gsps and britts but i just prefer pointers and setters. I did not tell obby that he had to get a pointer or a setter. i am sorry if i offended you. Just my two cents.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

The main thing I was trying to address is the fact that other then telling anyone that reads your post that you like pointers and setters you offered no information to help in Obby's decision.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Ya Know, all the arguing needs to quit, It is all in the up bringing of the puppy. The setter I put in the puppy pics just turned year old, he'll hunt big, or he'll hunt small. Got him at six months, he learned how to handle the cover, because I exposed him to all different things as a puppy, made him get lost, so he'd pay attention to where I was, and this can be done with all breeds.Don't get me wrong, some dogs, for SOME people are better, or easier. It doesn't have to be 3 pages of bickering back and forth. Sounds like we need a big fun trial, for braggin rights. All you guys are doin is scaring the guy about theinitial ques. asked. Thanks Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Elhwe and Blue I am not even gonna grace your post with a reply.........I one one of each GSP and EP .......Gotta say..My GSP....can hold her own...Sorry Guys....Can't hardly stand a post like that..

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Cdover, totally agree, this post is getting way out of hand, All breeds can hold there own, I have seen brits, gsp, and viszla's run off horseback, being little spots in the horizon. You know it is all opinions, the guy needs to find a dog that appeals to his eye, and teach, or have it taught. It is simple. Some dogs have more desire and drive some don't. I will take it to the bank. If foundation is presented properly,any dog will learn how to hunt for and with "mom or dad " Thanks Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Jonsesy I agree completely. Diff strokes for diff folks. That is why we have more than one auto manufacturer,gun maker,dog food company. We all have different expactations of what we want from a bird dog. Bird dogs are meant to be enjoyable. Figure out what will work for you and what you like and go with it....

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Suprised no one's suggested a Pointing Lab......best of both world's... :)

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I was going to suggest one but I think obby1 would be better served if he gets a dog that will run bigger than the dog he gets now. That way he can cover more ground and dogs are not working the same area. Now, a big running dog, unless it has a phenomal nose, will miss a bird or two. That's where his lab can pick up.I don't know much about pointing labs but do they honor point? What's their range?

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Yes they honor point...their steady to flush, steady to shot. I have a 9 month old yellow pointing lab...sired by DocE's MH Casey. Not sure about the range....but I know from watching Casey at field test's...Doc has him working pretty close.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Any pointing breed is going to run bigger than a Lab. Goes without saying.

No flushing Lab can run slow enough or fast enough not to interfere with a big running pointer.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

For sure - for sure. An ideal retiever and pointer all in one package. No need for a 2nd dog.



.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

He only works close at Field tests, because the rules require that the dog stay within shooting range (10 - 30 yards). Out in the real world, Casey will hunt at whatever range I have him do. 10 yards is fine but he will also range 200 - 300 yards if commanded to do so.
That's one of the things that's so cool about PLs, they will work at whatever range you wnat them to do -- unlike MOST pointing breeds that work at whatever distance THEY want to. Personally, I prefer not to have to use track shoes if I don't have to.
I'd say that when out hunting in the real world, I usually have Casey between 40 and 100 yards.



.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Key word: Foundation; creates, and makes,ALL kinds of mighty fine K9's. Thanks Jonesy

RE: Best Pointer?
 

To all i have offended. Obby you may get any kind of dog you want. It is your decision. I just stated my opinion that i like pointers and setters the best. Some dogs are better for different people. I wasnt trying to start an argument. So to you guys that run any dogs but pointers and setters, I AM SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU!!!!!!

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Then my recommendation to Obby1 is to call Doc E for another PL sinceObby already has a PL and know the breed.

Blueditch42
I'm also a fan of english setters and english pointers. More setters than pointers. Half the fun of watching a dog point is watching that tail go crazy when on scent. And when they do lock up *bam* tail stops dead. You definitely can't fault them on their noses or their drive. EPs are terrific in the field but too impersonal in the home but still really nice dogs as I hunted behindmy friends onefor a few years. But with the setter, you just can't beat that tail :)

RE: Best Pointer?
 

Thanks mite. I wasnt trying to tick anyone off. I was just stating my opinion. I have a pointer and a setter both, and that i what i like. But like someone said in an earlier post. "different strokes for different folks"!!! Good luck obby in finding you a dog.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

I've got a Brit and really enjoy her. She certainly isn't timid and will run multiple days of hard hunting. I would suggest that you define your search a liitle bit. What kind of birds are you going to hunt? What type of terrain do you hunt? Will the dog be a family dog? Do you want a large or medium size dog? So on and so forth. Whatever you choose, make sure that the breeding is sound and the genetics as good as you can afford. If you do this, both you and your dog will be happier. Good luck.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

.

RE: Best Pointer?
 

sproulman,
why not a springer? A small springer is just the size of a larger beagle. They hunt birds and get into places most dogs won't go. But with the beagle, they'll chase unwanted game like if the beagle scents a rabbit or squirrel, off they go.

Then you run into the pointer with flusher issue for both dogs (if running a PL). I have a small setter that willhunt blackberries bushes,she's < 35lbs. I know of another fully grown setter only about 30lbs. But then I have an issue of calling for her to flush the bird because there's no way I'm going in there.