Good post SULLIVT and HOWLER!

as these are true in the east. I once called a dominant male coyote within 30 feet of me as I was standing there talking to my buddy who was smoking a cigerette and we were 5 feet from the truck. It was at night and we were doing some locating. It came in dead silent and the only reason I knew it was there was because I flashed my sure fire out into the field to retrieve my E-caller and BANG there it was staring at us. I said very loud OH SH!&, there is a coyote. It let us look at it for a good couple of minutes before calmly walking off.

As far as distress calls, YUP they will respond to the same sounds but I THINK westerns will respond more often and faster due to the lack of food sources in the desert or plain states where in the east, more plants, people trash and so on. A coyote does not know what sound you are playing, it just hears lunch. You can play a rabbit cry or Martian cry, it don't matter it just sounds like easy pickins. Did you ever wonder why coyote pup distress works, some people use it to call coyotes, some use it after they shoot #1 and are trying to get #2 to come back, coyotes don't come to the call to "help" a wounded pup or help a fellow pack member, they do it because that hurt pup or coyote is now an easy meal. If a pack goes out hunting and then return to the den and one is wounded, it won't be long before the rest of the pack kills the wounded coyote, that coyote is no longer of any use to the pack.

Coyotes don't know what guns, bullets or scopes are either, the thought of educating coyotes is touchy with me. If you call a coyote and shoot at it and miss, do you think that the coyote thinks " holy crap, that boy is trying to kill me" all it knows is it was walkin along and a noise that was not an everyday occurance was there, so it ran out of confusion. Now if your calling is good enough and your setup is good to, you SHOULD be able to go back to that same spot and call that same coyote within a couple of days.

If you want to hunt coyotes in the east where they are in alot of places, far and few between, as I wrote earlier, go out and locate at night. You don't even have to get out of the truck. Just go and howl and wait for a response, when you get one, go back to that spot and get as close as you can to where you think they responded to and get em where THEY feel comfortable and don't make them do things that they don't want to, don't try to force them in open fields and don't invite them to wind you. good camo and stay still.

The most important thing to know about coyote and coyote behavior is NEVER underestimate them, Just when you think you know them and their behavior, they go and change up everything.

OK, if a coyote doesn't/can't think that his life is in danger when being shot at, why do coyotes get road shy in areas that they get shot at from the road?
Maybe sometimes, BUT what about the times when pups are still dependant on thier parents. If a bitch and dog are away from thier den and hear pups distress near thier den, do you think they come running back only looking to eat one of their pups! Don't think so!
And using howling as a locater call only, hmmmm. Why use a call that is effective to call them to you, only to drive away after they answer. AND, just because you howl, certainly doesn't mean that any and all coyotes that can hear you howl, are going to howl in return. they often will come in silently to howling, when used to call them! Why waste a call only to educate coyotes to your howl/voice?

Howler: to answer your questions, NO animal knows it could die, will die or are in the danger of dying. They just can't think with that kind of logic. They become road shy because by going near the road and getting shot at, they know it is a place that things happen that are out of their understanding and out of their control.

as soon as the pups are old enough to leave the den and hunt on their own and are not dependent on the pups, yes that will happen. Not everytime, but again, a distress is a distress, they don't know rabbit from coyote to any other animal, it is just another distress.

I never said use howls to locate ONLY, I use howls on every single stand I do, I said use it to locate at night. I howl during the day to trigger a territory response and get the locals to start moving looking for an intruder. NO, they will not howl back 100% of the time, as I said in a previous post, I had one within 30 feet of me that came in dead silent, But MOST of the time you will get SOME of them to howl back thus giving away the denning sight. Sometimes it's the young stupid ones, but MOST times some will howl back.

I don't completely understand your last sentence but I will try to answer. You are not "educating" them to your howls/voice by locating at night. because you are just trying to get a location and then moving on. You are not calling them close to you so they feel endangered. It is just a location thing.

I don't know the truth about educating a coyotes... I believe they have short term memory... for instance I had one coyote charge into the call (at a night stand) and stick his head into the speaker looking like he was going to pick it up and take it away... I shot and missed. He ran off approx 100 yards turned around and charged right back in and did the same thing. Wouldn't you know I missed again and he ran off. I was pissed and retreived my stuff and on my way out he was barking at me... I bet I could have called him in again.

Well browing.204, I look at it like this, obviously different than you look at it, BUT a couple of things. When you are driving the roads at night to locate coyotes, 1) how many coyotes are at the same place during the day that they are at night? and 2) I think coyotes can recognize another coyotes voice. In other words, a bitch can recognize her dog/mate from other coyotes.
Why do you use a howler on every stand? And what type of howls do you use on every stand?

If you don't beleive coyotes get call shy/educated, why is it that it gets so much harder to call later in the season,(other than fewer pups to call)and when there are other callers working the same area that you do. They do get educated.
The great thing about calling predators is, there's no set rule. if you call long enough, you'll have coyotes break every rule, like coming in up wind of you, stopping after they get shot at two, three, four times,... not spooking when they see your movement etc.

The other thing about coyotes learning that a rifle/gun shot is danger is...in the mid-west there are guys that use pick-ups to drive through pastures and fields, and they shoot into the cover, and thecoyotes usually come out on the run. If the coyote didn't hear gun shots as danger, why would they run from it?
Also, when calling here in CO., I can often shoot a coyote and continue to call and often call in another, or two, coyote from the same stand. BUT, I have yet todo that in KS., in an area that I discribe above. I believe that in KS., the coyotes get shot at enough to know that a gun shot equals danger. SO, once I shoot one coyote on a stand, any other in coming coyote will stop and turn tail! To the coyote in KS., gun shot equals life or death and they have learned that!

Yes sullivt, I also believe they have very short memories, thats why we can hunt them and shoot them in the same areas year after year, just like every other animal out there.

Howler: 1) when I go howling/locating at night and get a response I go back there the next day because MOST times the coyotes will only howl from their den spot or hunting grounds, SO it is safe to say that the spot is there territory and chances are will be there in the morning because as you know, coyotes have a set territory.
2) I don't use a howler on every stand, I use coyote vocalizations on every stand. WHY? because territory is the #1 issue of coyotes, thats where they Den, hunt, feel safe. NOW by howling, I give the impression that there is another coyote in the territory, and that makes the resident coyotes mad. SO by howling 2-3-4 times and then to a distress it looks like there is an imposter in the area stealing the food. There is no set type of vocalization that I use, as long as its of coyote. Sometimes dominant male, sometimes challenge barks, maybe a female, whatever, it all works.

I don't believe coyotes know gunshots as danger, as I said when the trucks come chasing and shootin they run because it is not an everyday thing. How about this. If you have a bird dog and you train it from when it is a pup. When you fire your .22 then your .410 then the 20 gauge then the 12. the dog stays with you because from when it was a pup you have been showing it that the noise is ok, its a part of life, no reason to be scared. NOW take a dog that has never been hunted over and fire a gun right over it, What will happen? The dog will probably run full bore away. Does it know that the bullet will hurt him? NO it is scared of the noise and has never experianced it before.

If your calling is good enough, you should be able to call coyotes back up in CO. KS. NH. or anyhere. As far as you not having a double on a stand in KS, I think you will. give it time. Coyotes are very stupid, they always have been and always will be. You want to call some tough coyotes? come up to the North east, they are tough to trick up here, coyote hunting is not a popular sport out here, so they should be easy as pie right? NOPE.
It is not because they are smart, it is because they have thick cover to use.

I'm just guessing, but I wonder if the eastern coyote has a smaller territory than the western does. That would make sense as to why you usually find them in the same area during day and night, where as out here, not so.
On howling, I do it a little differently. Early season, like right now, we just started calling last weekend, I use very little coyote vocals. My reason for that is, there are a lot of pups, and they are dispersing and have yet to find thier territory. SO I don't want them to hear another coyote and be in any way threatened by it. SO, I stick with the simple distress. Also, I have a lot of private ground to hunt, BUT not enough that I can avoid calling the same are two or three times in the season. SO, I save my coyote vocals for later in the season, plus as breeding season approaches, vocals become very effective, with out the use of distress.
You're the first that I can remember to say the coyote is stupid! I've been calling just a tick over 20 years. How long do ya think it will take to call in mulitples in heavily hunted areas. My guess, it might happen eventually, as I said earlier, do it long enough and all rules will be broken. BUT, my experience says coyotes learn.
You're logicwith hunting dogs is flawed, when compared to the coyote being shot at. You're hunting dog is being introduced/conditioned to accept gun shot, plus they eventually learn that gun shot means a possible reward/retrieve. I'll bet if you took that same gun dog and whizzed a few bullets over/near/around it, it would learn that gun shots aren't so good any more and would learn to fear it!
And another observation. In KS. for instance, if you call a coyote in and shoot and miss it, getting it to stop for a second, even a third shot just don't happen. Where as here in CO., I can stop them after a shot or two before they just won't stop again. Why is that? I still say shoot at 'em enough and often, they learn that a big boom is danger!
Also, I expect to call coyotes that have been called in the past, BUT I expect that I need to change sounds and possiblycalling location, to do so! If youuse the same sounds over and over and sit in the same spot time and again, you're calling success will drop, and that's even if you're shooting at butnot killing every coyote you call in. Would you not agree. Why would that be?
Interesting conversation browning!

yes interesting conversation is right! and kinda fun I might add, it is fun to see the differences in hunt styles, tactics and stories.

you are right about the eastern coyotes territories being smaller, it is obvious. we have much smaller pieces of land out here. coyote to human contact is much greater out here and less coyotes.

calling styles don't change for me anytime during the year (we can hunt em year round) exept during mating season, I use female mating howls during this time. As I said if your calling is good enough then you will trick em. Cause a territory conflict get em moving, then give them something you know they can handle (distress)

What ever works for you is super, whatever works for me is great, we are talkin about 2 different parts of the country, different terrian, thus different tactics. I don't even remember how we got into this, I think someone said to make them wind you, That just didn't jive with me.

p.s. coyotes are one of the smartest and most adaptable animals out there, but they are still stupid, thats why we can shoot them. if they were smart they would think logically and form a plan and use all their great senses to investigate something, but they can't and because of this we are able to shoot them. Just like every other animal.

I disagree with you there. They do form a plan and use their senses to investigate. That's why they don't run straight in, but go downwind for the approach. Not to say there aren't stupid ones that run straight in, but most of them seem to have a plan. They trust their nose more than anything, and rightfully so, because it is the only sense they have that we can't fool. Hunting them is a matter of us knowing their plan, and figuring out a way to defeat it to get them into range.

Howler, I've noticed the same thing here. Anything close to a gunshot, and the coyotes are gone in a flash. Maybe because there are so many deer hunters around here that hurl lead at them all the time?

I've had some that were very, verycall shy. One this summer appeared across a field from me on three different occaisions, and on two, barked atother coyotes trying to leadthem away from me. It would come out just to the edge of the field (over 700 yards away the first two times), and it would bark at me. There were coyotes all over the place, and that one would bust on me every time I set up. Third time, it finally made a mistake, coming out of the woods only 250 yards away, but that coyote was about to drive me crazy.

After I finally got that one, that field is now easy pickings.

North Texan: I agree with you but only to a point. They do form a "plan" but not a good enough "plan" to keep out of harms way.

Now a coyote can see your finger move from 200 yards away.

A coyote can smell a scent months after it was layed.

A coyote can hear a distress from 1/4 - 1/2 away, sometimes longer. They can listen to 10 sounds at once and hear each sound 1 at a time. We hear a big mess of sounds and most times can't pick 1 or 2 out of the mess.

A healthy coyote can run 45 mph for 1/2 hour straight and could trot until it died.

SO, with all these great senses that this animal has to use, why is it that we go out time and time again and shoot coyotes?

Thats why I say that there are stupid. Yes they try to wind you, ok that is a "plan" BUT why don't they try to wind you and spot you and every now and again stop to listen for anything "not cool"? If they did use all these senses combined, I Promise you, you would never call and shoot one.

So the "plan" of winding you is not a very good one because most times we fool them and shoot them. And North Texan, as you described in the post above, this one coyote gave you the dickens for a while, BUT you kept after him and shot him and now the field is easy pickins. If that coyote was "smart" the first time he busted you should have been the last because he would have fomulated a "plan" to avoid you next time, but he couldn't and you kept callin him up until you felt comfortable with the shot he offered. Now he is dead and so much for his "plan"

The only animals that are more careless to investigate are cats, It is sometimes harder to call cats because they are patient, take their sweet time, stretch, look around, whatever. And they are a bit harder to call than coyotes because they require 2 senses to be stimulated rather than 1 like a coyote. A cat requires sound, and movement, smart right? Nope, because when a cat hears sound and see's movement, it is an instinct and they cannot stop it to pounce on that thing that they THINK is causing the sound and movement. This alot of times results in a dead kitty.

If you don't believe me, try this with your house cat. when the cat is in the room with, grab a string or something. Go across the room and start making a noise. Your cat will probably look at you like "dude shut up" but now, keep making the noise and shake the string on the floor and the cat will jump on it. But your cat knows its you making the noise, and see's your hand moving the string but can't help but pounce. Not very smart.