Amping up a 223?
04-07-2014, 05:21 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,646
doesn't matter powder capacity makes the gas required to make velocity, the amount of capacity limits the amount of gas, to much gas in a small area makes to much pressure causing at best erratic accuracy, at worst a damaged rifle or injury.
solid copper bullets do well with terminalperformance some rifles likethem some don't. if you wanna extend the range I can say this, BC will outrun velocity every time, if you don't know this, then you just don't know what any rifle is capable of.
RR
solid copper bullets do well with terminalperformance some rifles likethem some don't. if you wanna extend the range I can say this, BC will outrun velocity every time, if you don't know this, then you just don't know what any rifle is capable of.
RR
Al
04-08-2014, 07:25 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
You reminded me of a guy I worked with at my last job. He wasn't an engineer, but he came up with wild-eyed ideas without researching anything he was talking about, then argued it would work even after it was proven to him that it wouldn't.
You're not coming up with anything that hasn't been tried here. The reality is that limitations exist, and there's no way to cheat your way around it. If you trip on the sidewalk, you're going to fall down, not magically turn into a unicorn and fly to Valhalla.
You're mistaken about the maximum terminal range of the 223rem, which is fine. Better that you underestimate and play it safe than over-reach with a small cartridge and wound game. Your threads are asking "how to change a 223rem from a 300yrd killer to a 600yrd killer?" 1) It already is. 2) Nothing could be changed to add 300yrds to a 223rem. Maybe 100yrds, 150ish if we lie a little about it, but nothing would add 300yrds to a given case's performance.
The TTSX is a good bullet, but it's not a magic pill.
Read again what I said about sectional density. Copper is less dense than lead, so as you increase the copper content of a bullet, either by thickening a jacket, or by converting to a 100% copper solid, you're decreasing your sectional density.
There's really nothing special about the Barnes TTSX, and there IS a disadvantage to using one. The TTSX has a lower Sectional Density, being a copper solid, than a lead core bullet of the same profile would have. Therefore it is a lighter bullet than it would be, but also MUCH LONGER THAN IT SHOULD BE. Think about it this way. I want 10lbs of 2" pipe. A piece of 2" diameter steel pipe doesn't have to be very long before it reaches 10lbs. A piece of 2" diameter PVC, on the other hand, which is much lighter, would have to be MUCH MUCH longer to reach the same weight. BUT, this long profile does mean the bullet has a longer form, which lets them increase the BC FOR WEIGHT.
BUT, against bullets in its length class, it generally has a lower BC due to its lower SD. The 55grn TTSX is as long as a 69grn Sierra MatchKing!!!!
WHAT THIS MEANS:
Comparing a "standard" 55grn lead core boattail bullet with the TTSX 55grn - My 55grn bullets are ~0.80" long, to the TTSX 55grn 0.898":
Mag Length/COAL Max's: That extra long TTSX means for a mag length load with a max COAL of 2.255", I have almost 0.1" more bullet sticking into the case, eating up powder capacity.
Chamber Throat/seating length: A longer profile bullet at a given weight will change how you need to seat your bullet. A lot of guys experienced that when they changed over to next generation super high BC bullets like the VLD's, they had to increase their COAL otherwise they faced excessive bullet jump. But that longer profile means their case neck has less flat side of the bullets to hang on to, so guys eventually found that they had to change their case trim lengths to be longer to hold onto the bullet, otherwise they had to set their barrels back to shorten the throat, which meant they couldn't ever shoot standard bullets in it. BUT... Again, remember from above, magazine boxes have COAL limits for many rifles, so you MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO INCREASE YOUR COAL, so you might just have to suffer with accuracy issues from excessive jump.
And the BC of the TTSX isn't really just outside of the realm of possibilities with a leadcore bullet anyway. The 55grn TTSX BC is 0.272 with an SD of 0.157, hornady's V-max is a better BC of 0.290 with a BC of 0.151, and again, its almost 10thou shorter. The 62grn TTSX is BC .294 with an SD of 0.177. Comparatively, a Sierra GameKing is 0.303 with an SD of 0.185, and it's even a touch shorter than the 55grn TTSX, let alone the 62grn!! Comparing against a bullet in it's LENGTH class, the 55grn TTSX, with a BC of 0.272 and SD of 0.157 falls WAY short - a 69grn Sierra Matchking is about the same length, and runs 0.310BC and has an SD of 0.196!
So really man, it's a matter of 1) the case can only hold so much powder, 2) case and rifle can only sustain so much pressure, 3) the bore can only BURN so much powder, 4) the bullets BC's are limited by REAL WORLD densities and form, 5) Longer, higher BC bullets of lower density ARE NOT NECESSARILY BALLISTICALLY SUPERIOR, and they aren't a free-meal ticket (mag lengths and throat jump).
You said consider all of the angles... This thread has covered A LOT of angles that shot down the idea.
It's been said already - if you want more range than a 223rem, get a bigger case and a bigger bullet.
You're not coming up with anything that hasn't been tried here. The reality is that limitations exist, and there's no way to cheat your way around it. If you trip on the sidewalk, you're going to fall down, not magically turn into a unicorn and fly to Valhalla.
You're mistaken about the maximum terminal range of the 223rem, which is fine. Better that you underestimate and play it safe than over-reach with a small cartridge and wound game. Your threads are asking "how to change a 223rem from a 300yrd killer to a 600yrd killer?" 1) It already is. 2) Nothing could be changed to add 300yrds to a 223rem. Maybe 100yrds, 150ish if we lie a little about it, but nothing would add 300yrds to a given case's performance.
Read again what I said about sectional density. Copper is less dense than lead, so as you increase the copper content of a bullet, either by thickening a jacket, or by converting to a 100% copper solid, you're decreasing your sectional density.
There's really nothing special about the Barnes TTSX, and there IS a disadvantage to using one. The TTSX has a lower Sectional Density, being a copper solid, than a lead core bullet of the same profile would have. Therefore it is a lighter bullet than it would be, but also MUCH LONGER THAN IT SHOULD BE. Think about it this way. I want 10lbs of 2" pipe. A piece of 2" diameter steel pipe doesn't have to be very long before it reaches 10lbs. A piece of 2" diameter PVC, on the other hand, which is much lighter, would have to be MUCH MUCH longer to reach the same weight. BUT, this long profile does mean the bullet has a longer form, which lets them increase the BC FOR WEIGHT.
BUT, against bullets in its length class, it generally has a lower BC due to its lower SD. The 55grn TTSX is as long as a 69grn Sierra MatchKing!!!!
WHAT THIS MEANS:
Comparing a "standard" 55grn lead core boattail bullet with the TTSX 55grn - My 55grn bullets are ~0.80" long, to the TTSX 55grn 0.898":
Mag Length/COAL Max's: That extra long TTSX means for a mag length load with a max COAL of 2.255", I have almost 0.1" more bullet sticking into the case, eating up powder capacity.
Chamber Throat/seating length: A longer profile bullet at a given weight will change how you need to seat your bullet. A lot of guys experienced that when they changed over to next generation super high BC bullets like the VLD's, they had to increase their COAL otherwise they faced excessive bullet jump. But that longer profile means their case neck has less flat side of the bullets to hang on to, so guys eventually found that they had to change their case trim lengths to be longer to hold onto the bullet, otherwise they had to set their barrels back to shorten the throat, which meant they couldn't ever shoot standard bullets in it. BUT... Again, remember from above, magazine boxes have COAL limits for many rifles, so you MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO INCREASE YOUR COAL, so you might just have to suffer with accuracy issues from excessive jump.
And the BC of the TTSX isn't really just outside of the realm of possibilities with a leadcore bullet anyway. The 55grn TTSX BC is 0.272 with an SD of 0.157, hornady's V-max is a better BC of 0.290 with a BC of 0.151, and again, its almost 10thou shorter. The 62grn TTSX is BC .294 with an SD of 0.177. Comparatively, a Sierra GameKing is 0.303 with an SD of 0.185, and it's even a touch shorter than the 55grn TTSX, let alone the 62grn!! Comparing against a bullet in it's LENGTH class, the 55grn TTSX, with a BC of 0.272 and SD of 0.157 falls WAY short - a 69grn Sierra Matchking is about the same length, and runs 0.310BC and has an SD of 0.196!
So really man, it's a matter of 1) the case can only hold so much powder, 2) case and rifle can only sustain so much pressure, 3) the bore can only BURN so much powder, 4) the bullets BC's are limited by REAL WORLD densities and form, 5) Longer, higher BC bullets of lower density ARE NOT NECESSARILY BALLISTICALLY SUPERIOR, and they aren't a free-meal ticket (mag lengths and throat jump).
You said consider all of the angles... This thread has covered A LOT of angles that shot down the idea.
It's been said already - if you want more range than a 223rem, get a bigger case and a bigger bullet.
Last edited by Nomercy448; 10-16-2015 at 01:37 PM.
04-08-2014, 07:29 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
C'mon brother man, only 200yrds for a 223rem? It's a tiny case, but ya gotta give it SOME credit, lol, she's a long sight better than a slingshot! :P
04-08-2014, 08:45 AM
#18
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
They're answering your questions based on their experience and knowledge though perhaps not giving you the answers you'd like to see. Each hunter needs to impose their own parameters on what a caliber can be used for and accept the consequences that come with that decision.
It doesn't mean you can't experiment or test things but when you ask some of the more experienced members on this forum (RR & NoMercy especially), you're going to get answers based on their knowledge gained from decades of experience in doing exactly what you're asking. IOW, they're giving you a realistic "real world" answer that they have proven in the field and know that it works consistently and not just once in a lucky shot or perfect bullet placement, animal fatigue, atmospheric conditions, etc. It may not be exactly what you want to hear but it's what they've learned actually works through years of experience and experimentation.
It doesn't mean you can't experiment or test things but when you ask some of the more experienced members on this forum (RR & NoMercy especially), you're going to get answers based on their knowledge gained from decades of experience in doing exactly what you're asking. IOW, they're giving you a realistic "real world" answer that they have proven in the field and know that it works consistently and not just once in a lucky shot or perfect bullet placement, animal fatigue, atmospheric conditions, etc. It may not be exactly what you want to hear but it's what they've learned actually works through years of experience and experimentation.
04-08-2014, 10:07 AM
#19
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 64
They're answering your questions based on their experience and knowledge though perhaps not giving you the answers you'd like to see. Each hunter needs to impose their own parameters on what a caliber can be used for and accept the consequences that come with that decision.
It doesn't mean you can't experiment or test things but when you ask some of the more experienced members on this forum (RR & NoMercy especially), you're going to get answers based on their knowledge gained from decades of experience in doing exactly what you're asking. IOW, they're giving you a realistic "real world" answer that they have proven in the field and know that it works consistently and not just once in a lucky shot or perfect bullet placement, animal fatigue, atmospheric conditions, etc. It may not be exactly what you want to hear but it's what they've learned actually works through years of experience and experimentation.
It doesn't mean you can't experiment or test things but when you ask some of the more experienced members on this forum (RR & NoMercy especially), you're going to get answers based on their knowledge gained from decades of experience in doing exactly what you're asking. IOW, they're giving you a realistic "real world" answer that they have proven in the field and know that it works consistently and not just once in a lucky shot or perfect bullet placement, animal fatigue, atmospheric conditions, etc. It may not be exactly what you want to hear but it's what they've learned actually works through years of experience and experimentation.
04-08-2014, 10:23 AM
#20
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
Although theoretically and metaphysically possible, I doubt there is a lot they haven't tried. New things do come along (they're using 90 grain 223 bullets in Palma matches these days) and advances are made but the physical limitations are still present. Consider most of the short magnum cartridges or even the Weatherby Magnum cartridges. They're a few hundred feet faster with a little more energy but eventually they run into the upper edge of the ballistic envelope also.
As an interesting side note, have you considered just bumping up to a 243 or 6mm cartridge? Your deer ranges (and killing ability) would increase substantially and you would still retain the ability to whack prairie dogs just about as far as you can see them.
As an interesting side note, have you considered just bumping up to a 243 or 6mm cartridge? Your deer ranges (and killing ability) would increase substantially and you would still retain the ability to whack prairie dogs just about as far as you can see them.
