00possum

I don't personally reload but I had this idea that might get me started in it. Putting a special powder or maybe just more in a 223 case to make it shoot farther with more energy down range. I read an article where a guy was shooting his 204 at 800 yards and hitting prairie dog size targets. I'm not saying I believe the guy, but I think there is some truth to it. I've heard plenty of former military say they could hit a Man in the chest at 500 yards with a 223. So what if we used a different powder, like the kind they use in superformance ammo maybe? and put a little more in there, use a proper bullet, and extend the effective hunting range of the 223. Say what you want, but the 223 IS lethal at 300 yards for deer size game. This isn't about ethics, it's about if it can be done. Gun power is overrated and shot placement is underrated. How can we extend the range of the 223 to 500 yards or more? To take out all the variables well say its a perfect shot, broadside, leg foreword right behind the shoulder, dead center of the heart. Tell me everything you can.

Topgun 3006

If it could be done safely someone would have already done it! You'll also get a good argument from many that a .223 isn't a 300 yard deer gun and really wasn't even designed for deer-sized game! It seems as though someone always wants to use or espouse a small caliber for something it wasn't really meant for and, yes, I know it will kill deer. PS: It would also be best not to get into reloading for the reason you stated, as what you're mentioning would only be advised for someone with many years of experience to even attempt.

sconnyhunter

So, you want to extend the .223 pill to beyond the normal ranges. Speak to an EXPERIENCED re-loader.
I don't do it myself, as I don't have the desire. But the thing that i have learned from those who do. Is that what you want, and what is SAFE are not usually one and the same.

As my father might say. This is where common sense comes into play. Just because you might want to do something, doesn't mean you should.

Big Uncle

If you want to load a cartridge past the point where the pressure can not be contained you will get new nicknames (like "Lefty" and "One Eye").

Ridge Runner

if you check the guy was most probably shooting a fast twist with a heavy bullet, get a good grasp on ballistics and you'll know how to do it
RR

00possum

"If could be done someone would've already done it" think about how many times people have thought that through out history and have been wrong. What if we used stronger brass to help compensate for the pressure? I agree, 223 isn't a deer gun. It wasn't meant for deer, yada yada, I get it. I would never use it at 300 yards for a deer. But I just figured it would be a good reference since it's such a popular game animal. I'm saying we take every dang thing into consideration. Maybe there's a chemical that will stay dormant until the gun powder ignites and then it reacts. ;Chemistry has been in my mind and I just figured maybe it had some type of relevance)Outside of the box guys... I know there's a bunch of smart guys on here, definitely smarter than me. But I think it can be done. We could take the best characteristics from each bullet, not just 22 caliber but say 7mag or 308 and apply it to a 22 caliber bullet. We can put a man on the moon with a computer "dumber" than my phone, but we can't make a 223 bullet more lethal at a little bit farther range?

Ridge Runner

well stronger 223 brass is 5.56 brass, its thicker, being thicker it runs more pressure with the same powder charge, so that option has been covered. you wanna extend the range of a 223, you get a fast twist barrel, you throat it long, you shoot a high BC heavy for caliber bullet, the record prairie dog with a 223 was taken at over 1100 yards with an 8 twist 223 shooting a 75 gr amax, like I said study up on ballistics and it will start to click.
RR

Nomercy448

As Ridge pointed out, a fast twist 22cal rifle firing heavy bullets will do things that most 40-50grn shooters would never expect. I've knocked down coyotes past 500yrds with a 223rem in the past 69grn SMK's or Berger 75grn VLD's usually, even just using a 1:9". It's really not that hard to kill game. Fighting the wind with light bullets over long ranges and getting it on target is the larger problem.

A few thoughts on "amping up the .223rem"...

It has been done, in various ways...

.223AI = blown out 223rem case, adds about 2.5grn water capacity, adds 100-150fps more on top of 223rem velocities. I haven't noticed a huge difference, but the guy I bought my reamer from claimed his brass lasted longer as .223AI than it would as .223rem because he could neck-size-only more times and avoid work hardening by full length sizing. I don't anneal myself, just get new brass, and I'm not sure whether annealing 223rem brass would make up the gap against work hardening, but it IS another step. I probably wouldn't AI another 223rem, as I didn't notice nearly the performance gain in the .223 as I have in the 243, but it's an easy change, and does boost performance.

.22-250, 220swift, 223WSSM, then .243win, .25-06, 300win mag... etc etc. Bigger cases, more powder, more potential velocity running a heavier bullet = longer range potential hunting. There's a reason why other cartridges exist, when you max out the capabilities of one case with a given caliber bullet or bullet weight, bump up the capacity, bump up the bullet weight, bump up the caliber...

Putting too much powder, or a different burn rate of powder into a load isn't a free-lunch. When you start pitting your bolt face or sticking cases in your chamber, or worse, separating case heads or blowing your rifle to pieces, then maybe you'll understand why SAAMI has standard pressures for different cartridges, and why reloading manuals have DO NOT EXCEED maximum charge limits. There's also a finite amount of room within a case, so even if you wanted to "just put more powder in there", you can't. .223rem is a small case, so it's no stranger to compressed loads - i.e. powder loads that don't actually fit in the case, so they get compressed when you seat the bullet on top. "Compressed loads" are something not to be taken lightly, and are highly cautioned in those manuals that publish them. Some reloaders I grew up with avoided compressed loads altogether because they claimed it produced erratic velocity spreads (high ES and SD), whether you believe it or not doesn't matter, but when you see someone walking with caution, it's often wise to do so as well until you know what they're cautious of.

Nomercy448

[QUOTE=00possum;4133038]What if we used stronger brass to help compensate for the pressure?[QUOTE]

Outside dimensions of the case have to stay the same, so "thick brass" means LESS SPACE IN THE CASE, i.e. less room for powder. Ridge pointed out, that "thick 223 brass is 5.56 brass", and he also pointed out that 5.56 brass runs higher pressure with the same powder charge. So you get about the same power out the front, but thicker brass means you can't load the extra powder you were wanting to load in there, because even less powder fits than before.

As someone that knows a thing or two about Chemistry, this made me chuckle. Technically, ALL of the "chemicals" in the powder "stay dormant until the powder ignites". That's what combustion is, or more appropriately, deflagration - the chemicals are inert until the ignition energy is met and the chemicals react with oxygen.

What you're really talking about is duplex powder charges. Which can be incredibly dangerous. Powder companies "take every dang thing into consideration" when they consider burn rates, from the size of the powder granules to the shape, let alone the chemical composition.

Ideally, to produce the highest velocity possible, a powder should build pressure extremely fast, but then self-limit in some way such that it doesn't continue to build pressure. This would mean the force behind the bullet would build quickly, and push hard with regulated pressure down the entire length of the barrel. That's NOT what actually happens though. Gunpowders are progressive, so as pressure increases, they burn faster. This means that as they begin to reach the max pressure your rifle can withstand, they'll blow right past that structural limit with a smile on their face and blow your gun in half.

You also have to keep in mind that a 22cal bullet is small, and fragile, no matter how it's built. If you overpressure the base, you can damage the bullet before it ever leaves the barrel.

We can, and we have. You'll see 22caliber bullets that have nearly identical profiles (aerodynamics) as larger caliber bullets. The PROBLEM, however, with 22cal bullets is that they are small. To make a bullet tougher, the jacket needs to be thicker so it's less apt to fragment upon impact. HOWEVER, the thicker the jacket gets, because copper (the jacket) is less dense than lead (the core), that means the "SD" sectional density of the bullet decreases. Because the 22cal bullets are so small, they feel the effects of decreased SD by thickening the jacket faster than larger caliber bullets. As sectional density decreases, the more ballistic coefficient suffers, and the worse it will perform ballistically. In other words, it's a balancing act: the tougher you try to make a 22cal bullet to make it better at killing, the worse it gets at killing.

Not the same thing. You could never drive a car to the moon, which is what you're talking about here.

There are limitations to anything. The 223 bullet - or more appropriately, the .224" bullet - can be more lethal by putting it in a larger case, like the 22-250 or .220swift or .223WSSM. But at some point, there is only so much powder that a given bore diameter can burn, and a limit to how much powder can burn through a bore diameter without creating excessive pressure that might cause issues like extreme throat erosion, which is why we start building larger caliber cartridges. 220swift is notorious as a barrel burner, because it's supposedly 20% "overbored" (meaning 20% too much powder to efficiently burn in a 22cal barrel).

And frankly, it's all a moot discussion. A .223rem will kill a deer at 600yrds if you place it well with the right bullet construction (I'm sure it would do further, but that's MY number for it). The margin for error is smaller with a 22cal than it might be with a larger cased, larger caliber cartridge, but it CAN be done. So basically you're asking how to improve a cartridge to do something it can already do.

Ridge Runner

[QUOTE=Nomercy448;4133050]my point exactly, the only way to know what a cartridge can do is build, shoot it a lot, and learn what it can do, before you ask why it can't do it. I've taken severalchucks at 500, deer beyond 400 and have never really worked with mine in the long range arena, if and when I ever find a dpms single stack mag I will give the 80 grains a go.
RR