Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Hey guys,

So I've been shooting my Ruger M77 in 300 WM for about a month now using three different powders. I was using IMR ?(I think 3031 not sure), RL 22 and IMR 4064. I was using the Winchester Mag Primers and Nosler Partion 180 gr bullets. I've been neck sizing. I've been setting the bullet to an oal of 3.98-3.40.

I've been getting terrible accuracy and in the last two weeks started to question my shooting ability. A guy at the range this past weekend let me shoot his reloads and if the six shot group didn't measure 3/4" it measured 1/2". After the third shot I literly screamed "One f'ing hole". Mostly in disgust since I've shot so much money down range into 2-3" groups.

So here is what they guy at the range gave me. It was 69gr of IMR 4831 behind a Speer 180gr Spitzer Boattail. He was full length sizing. Also his bullets were a decent bit shorter than mine. I'm going to call him today to find out what kind of primer he was using.

Ok so here's the question.

1) How big of a factor is the full sizing vs neck sizing?

2) How big of a factor is the difference in OAL?

3) I can't help but feel that the most important factor is the bullet. Has anyone else had bad accuracy with Nosler Partitions?

4) Any other advice here.

Thanks

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Generally speers suck for me. thats just me. Your not going to win any matches with partitions but generally, I can get MOA accuracy. I never see consistent subMOA with partitions for some reason.

OAL is very important. In my loading processing, I will try to find a general load with promise and the velocity I want. Then I will try 3-4 different OAL's. But be careful here, too deep OAL, and too long, pressure builds quick. You need to know your max OAL for the gun.

Neck sizing is great, if done with care. Using neck sizers only, can throw the necks out of round. Roll your ammo to see if its straight. On a mirror is perfect, you can see any bullet wobbles. When I see people who say, this load shot great for them one time and now sucks, I usually see 7-10mil of bullet wobble. Same guy is the one who laughed at me for having concentricity gauge, and head and shoulders gauge, telling me he doesn't need that stuff. I grin, shrug my shoulders. I can only attribute his problems to his sizer setup. Maybe he doesn't square his dies? Maybe his shell holder is off tolerance.

Everything contributes to bad accuracy or good. Straight brass, straight seating, load, powder, primer, etc.

If partitions don't work out for you, move on to accubonds, or even speer. If you have trouble with his load, you know its your loading techique. If I find a good dynamic load, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference full vs. neck sizing. I prefer full anyway, just not knocking back the shoulders. 4831sc is a great powder for 300wm and simular to RL22. RL22 is great too. i don't think I would try 3031 or 4064 however.

Bottom line is, know the dimensions of your chamber, know how much your die is setting back the shoulders, know how far you are away from the rifling. Know if your brassis straight, along with seating bullet is straight.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Thanks for all the info BC. I know everything matters. I'm going to check the necks for bubbles tonight. I'm looking for some experienced reloaders to conjecture. I don't have a lot of time or money to figure this load out and what to try to get there as quickly as possible.

My oal is way off the lands. I size just long enough to fit in the magazine. Do you think going shorter would make that much of a difference? Accuracy wise?

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I have seen it both ways. I usually start out as long as I can, and shorten to see if I can help my groups. There are usually two OALs in a load that are the most accurate I find. I assume this is for timing of the bullet to exit the barrel.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

......I'm not knocking anyone's product here, as I hear other people report decent accuracy with the Partitions, but personally, I have tried them in several different rifles and just have not been able to get them to shoot up to my expectations. I'd try something else, I guess.......
I also agree with what bc said about the powder choices.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

PA and I have had the same experience with Partitions. I never could get them to fly for me.

Seating depth is important. But runout is far more important-IMO. This is the easiest way to put it. The bullet has to be in line with the bore when it jumps from the casing. The distance that it jumps makes no difference as long as it is in line. So seating out to the lands makes it easier because the distance is less, but if it is going into the bore at an angle then you still have trouble.

Neck sizing can cause more problems than it is worth. Neck sizing has to be done perfectly-or it is detrimental.

I have said this before-but I will say it again. IMO the expander ball is the "Root of all evil". Your case is completely unsupported when you pull the expander ball back through the neck. IMO this is where your runout problem starts. If the neck is not straight then you are screwed to start with. No amount of work will help at that point.

Full length sizing can give great consistency if you are meticulous in your sizing.

Personally I fireform my brass. I put a small nick in my brass. I always align this nick up with the feed rail on my bolt rifles. And I align the Headstamp in my single shots. However I only shoot my bolt rifles as a single shot. You can not do it my way if you fill the magazine. I recommend any hunter who shoots a full magazine to FL size.

I am sure there are some rifles out there with perfectly round chambers. But not too many of them. If you do not align your brass when it goes into the chamber then you have problems.

After I fireform I only size the neck with a bushing die(I trim my necks-but I only trim them a little). I do not use the expander ball-I use a Sinclair Sizing mandrel with a little bit of Imperial Sizing Wax. I foind that this puts very little pressure on the shoulder so I have little or no shoulder deformation. This deformation is where I think every reloader has there problem.

Since I only shoot single shot, I seat the bullets deep into the lands. However I have seated my bullets deeper and really have not seen a lot of accuracy difference, but my cartridges are straight.

Case preparation is key. I normally cull 1/2 or more of my cases when I start a new batch of cases. But f you want accuracy-you must do it.

Try the Sierra bullets. Try the 200 grain Game King. Or the 180 grain pill. Or the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Tom.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I just got off the phone with speer. The 180gr spitzer boattail is not intended for game larger than a small deer. So I have to find something else now. Man I don't have a lot of time here. May have to start leaving work early and making up the time later at night.

Are ballistic tips recommended for black bears?

I'm definetly going to pick up the gamekings. Any other bullets I may want to try for black bear, high accuracy etc... Hornady Interlock?

I guess I'm saying I'm kind of over the premium bullet thing.

Thanks

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I know I sure wouldn't use gamekings, ballistic tips (unless really heavy like 200gr), hornady SSTs,etc, on bear. I would use accubonds, partitions, TSX's, swift A-frames, TBBC, grand slams, etc. Thats me.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

No No No. You can not quit buying the premium bullets. How will all the writers go on their free trips?? The entire economy could flounder!!

I am not saying premiun bullets are bad. That would be an ignorant thing to say. I am only saying that they could sell them for a Lot Lot Lot less and still make money. Premium bullets are like gas. The price is not based upon what they are worth, the price is based on how much they think they can screw you out of!!

BC and I have argued about this before. And I do respect what he says. However I have been shooting 30 caliber 200 grain SierraGame Kings for more years than I care to talk about. I have not seen any game to this date stand up to one of them(good hit or bad hit). Whether they shedded some of their weight or not. Tom.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Saw the price of the accubonds. Not ridiculously bad but not that great either. About $22 per box. From Weidners.

Here is the list of what I'm going thinking of buying:

50 Nosler Accubonds $22
100 Sierra Gamekings $24.25
100 Hornady Interbonds (Let me know if I should!) $39
100 Speer Spitzer Boattails (Target practice) $22.70

So should I try the Interbond? Would I be better off with Interlocks?

Thanks

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Well, with the gamekings, you will be ready to go deer hunting this fall.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Tom, i would try the Hornady Interbonds. they're a bonded bullet so they'll be tuffer than the Interlocks at close range high velocity hits. i've had good luck with the hornady SST's in non-magnum cartridges. sooni'm going to start to handload for my Ruger 300WM and i'm going to start with the Hornady Interbonds. hopefully i'll have good luck withthem as i've had with the SST's.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

BC,

Called Sierra about the gamekings. He claims that the gamekings are more than adequate for black bears and even elk sized game. The tech, Jeff, claims that the president of the company went hunting for grizzly bears and took a box of the gamekings right off the shelf. Claims that he hit the bear through both shoulders and the bullet remains in Alaska. He says that the bullet can come apart but the game is down.

Don't know which way to go but I'm going to get a box to see how they shoot.

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Tom....Don't want to run you off the deep end here. I see what you have decided to try. I'm only gonna tell you that the Accubonds have done me well in all my trys..... Sorry to add to your discomfort. Maybe I should have mentioned it sooner. But, again, they might not work for your gun.....Only trial and error....

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Wow, they are still singing this song and dance?? Yea, thier tech support guys have been doing all they can to sell the idea that thier bullet is tough. Even taking out comparison mag ads. Proof is in the pudding

Hey man, its your bear. I just know of a few deer I have killed where it didn't make it thru one shoulder. I just know I made it thru two moose shoulder with a X.

I still use the gameking on deer and careful shots at that. They are simple thin jacketed bullet that usually shoots well in anything.

I was once complainign about the price of A-frames and someone (on this board) brought it to my attention, I am paying 4K to hunt moose, and I am worried about 50 dollars for the ammo. Really put things in perspective.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I was using the 180 grain and 190 grain Hornadys with a stiff charge of IMR 4831 for years in my 300's. WLRM primers, neck sized brass, fireformed, and outstanding accuracy. The interlocks kill a moose, bear, or elk with authority. They gave me sub moa. all of the time. I also used a stiff charge of H 4831, with the same results, but a little less velocity. I also use the interlocks in my Weatherby calibers with outstanding results. IMO, if Norma loads them in the factory Weatherby rounds, then they can't be a bad bullet. It has to be fairly tough to withstand impact velocities that Weatherbys can develop. I am wondering about the bedding job on your 77. Most of them shoot rather well. Good luck on your endevour.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I agree to the whole $50 of ammo thing, but I've spent a lot more than that so far. I'm having fun but I just wish those dang Partitions would have shot well. This gameking thing is really bugging me. I'd hate to think that tech support would be filling my ear with a crap. For the price of the bullets I'm going to pick them up anyway. Hopfully one of the interbonds or accubonds will shoot good.

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Were it me I'd take that RL22 and make 168 TSX's shoot...

Would hose about anything you'd want big or small.................

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Holy cow walker, we agree on something 100%. Do you think its a new start?:D

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Tom I cast straight WW bullets for a couple of friends who hunt black bear in WV with 1886 Winchester's. Cast bullets do a fantastic job on killing a black bear, and I cast them from thrown away wheel weights. Since these bullets kill a bear(mercilessly) I guess I should sell them for $50 for a box of 50?? I do not think so.

As I stated earlier, there is no doubt that premium bullets do a great job. All I am saying is that I have never seen a dimes bit of difference in the killing abiity of the different bullets when you(as the shoter) apply ample power to the job. And you are definitely applying ample power with the 300 WM. I have actually heard more bad stories about premium bullets just boring right through both sides with no expansion-especially the Barnes bullets.

I am, assuming you are going to hunt black bear. So you are not hunting dangerous heavy skinned animals. You are hunting a thin skinned animal that will run from you every time. Pick a good 180 or 200 grain bullet and go with it. If the bullet sheds 60 or 70 grains of weight it is still heavier than a 243 bullet that other hunters say is more than adequate to do the job. Tom.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I'm startin' to get nervous here...Wilds actually agreed with me about bedding Rugers some time ago....Think I'm gonna slip downstairs to the bar and make a gin & tonic....

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Don't worry PA, I think its a big trick:D. He'll come back and tell him he should use light weight Bullistic tips and we are stupid for using TSX. And then all will be right in the galaxy.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I can agree with O.B.L. that the world would be better off totally rid of allinfidels, it's only which one's definition of infidelwe could never come to terms on.....

I can find no reason to skimp on bullets, within usefull parameters, and tend not to short myself in that regard....bullets is cheap considering the alternative.

A ballistic tip is a good bullet for which it was designed and can't think big game was at the top of the drawing board during inception, tho' I've heard the 30's and up are beingmade a tadtougher. There's a contingent who praise them for whackin' elk and such things but I'm not one of 'em. I do like tobust woofs in thehips withBT's and Vmax's as the show is quite spectacular.....

Never could figure out the need for a 180 30 cal anythingfor deer or blackbear, especially out of a belted case. Though I've been guilty of the same, as a matter ofno other choice once or twice, it don't take long to realizedeer and black bearjust ain't that much bullet proof.......

The 165/168 TSX will likely stabalize well in his win mag, slam dunk stuff pronto, and shoot pretty much point and click regarding relative tragectory.....

X's simply kill like no other, and therein do shine................

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I never shot the original X for the reasons you say, a lotta folks said they couldn't get them to shoot well. From what I understand it was either they did pretty well for some or they did rotten for others...not muchmiddle ground. The one thing that was consistantly saidabout the original X though,is that they were a hammer when did they did shoot well.

Since the original X is pretty muchout of the equation now, the TSX addresses the problems many experienced with the originals. They actually operate at a lower pressure than most jacketed bullets and thus can be driven a tad faster with slightly elevated charges. Less bearing surface due to the grooves facilitates a more consistant opperating pressure than the original, as well as reduced fouling which were the twomain problemswith the original.

The design of the TSX is a near total weight retention anda near totally predictable expansion with the four petals opening as they do. This can allow a lighter bullet weight, driven at a higher speed, doing the same job better than a heavier jacketed bulletwhich isprone to lost mass, and expansion which is at the mercy of what it hits.

IOW, you can crunch a lotta bone and still get through vitals with a lighter, flatter shooting bullet that retains it's weight. Personally I experience quicker kills and a lot less ruined meat with the TSX than I ever did with Partitions, and I can always like flatter trajectories.

I've used them in five different rifles so far andhave never not liked how they shoot. Two 6mm bores, a 25-06, a 30-06, and a 300 RUM. All five shot sub MOA with a little load tinkering. I can like TSX's above the rest.....

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

The ruger is bedded and floated. I floated it and I paid a smith to bed it for me. The gun can shoot because it shot the lights out with the Speer Spitzer Boattail.

I ordered up all the bullets yesterday except the interbonds. They were out of stock and they said they would not be in stock for 30 days. I'm going to check another site today for those.

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Check out this post. This is from one of our PH in Tanzania and it is his personal experiance with the Barnes Triple Shock Bullets in Africa. http://www.lonestaroutdoorsman.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3146

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

A 7 mag 160 is a lotta bang for Barnes money, lottsa folks out there can't grasp the light for caliber aspect offered by the design.....

Did the guy really think it wouldn't near cut his Dik Dik in half at 50 yards?

People amaze me..........

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

There is no way a bullet did that kind of damage to that animal. I'm call'n bs.

Tom

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I kinda have to agree. I have seendeer hit with a 7mmmag at less than 100 yards with the 140gr TSX, and wasn't near like that. They had nice exit wounds but one actually, I had to look hard to see the exit wound.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Why would an Africa PH who could give a crapone way or the otherBS aboutone particular bullet? He is just stating he isn't a fna of the Barnes triple shock because of the reason he gives and shows. I guarantee you the pictures are true whether y'all want to believe it or not. I could care less myself just posting information on a subject.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

The African Dik Dik.....

Scientific Name: Madoqua kirkii
Size: 14 to 16 inches at the shoulder
Weight: 10 to 12 pounds
Lifespan: 3 to 4 years, 10 years in captivity
Habitat: Dense forest to open plains
Diet: Herbivorous
Gestation: 6 months
Predators: Humans, many small carnivores

Poppin' one in the grassbag with a full house 7 mag 160 X at 55 yards ain't much more than splittin' a woodchuck in half....

You'd think at least a PH would know that and advise against it.........

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

SJ, I sure am not saying your lying, but all I can tell you, is I have never experienced or seen anythinglike your PH is saying with the TSX 140gr out of a 7mm remmag. I mean if you experienced on thing but heard another, what would you think?

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

No problem BC, I didn't take any of the posts to refer thatI was lying. and I undertsnad what your saying about not experiancing it yourself but we also know that things do happen even when we haven't experianced it ourselves. I know the PH and he is a 5 star Tanzanian PH and there is no doubt that the pictures arelegit and what he says hehas experianced islegit even though I personally haven't seen what the pictures show. this PH has witness impacts on more big calibers than any of us will in our lifetime.

"The African Dik Dik.....
Scientific Name: Madoqua kirkii
Size: 14 to 16 inches at the shoulder
Weight: 10 to 12 pounds
Lifespan: 3 to 4 years, 10 years in captivity
Habitat: Dense forest to open plains
Diet: Herbivorous
Gestation: 6 months
Predators: Humans, many small carnivores

Poppin' one in the grassbag with a full house 7 mag 160 X at 55 yards ain't much more than splittin' a woodchuck in half....

You'd think at least a PH would know that and advise against it......... "

As for your post Looney, I am not sure what the biology lesson was all about butthis PHalways advises his hunters all the timefor and against certain choices of calibers for certain species of game but hesays that so many bucket head wannabeballistic experts can't beadvised about anything because they already know everything and when they are paying $40,000+ for a safari they use what gun they want to regardless of what the PH thinks.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

Was actually supporting your photographic evidence of a Dikdik blown in half....sorry you missed that.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what a high velocity 160 X is going to do to a 10 pound critter at 55 yards shot in the guts.............

I concure that there are a lot of experts out there who can't be told a thing and that be a key part of the problem regarding ballistics, and cape saving shot placement...I'd figure.

I can tell you one thing, a 168 TSX at 2860out of a 30-06 is a meat wrecker on northern whitetails, and thus I've gone to a smaller caliber as a result. Win/win, and the '06 is happy with just bear duty.......

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I did miss that. I apologize for that. He says he tries and tries to advise clients on calibers vs species, terrain and length of shotsbut many will not listen.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

My own experience with the TSX on deer has been nothing like that. I've used the 140 in the 7mm mag and the 168 in a .300 Wby.In the 3 or 4 times I've used them I've gotten dime sized entrance holes and half dollar to dollar sized exits. These were all at relatively close range.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

If I have a 300lb B&C whitetail give me a crack at him this season, I would welcome that performance.

We've been using Barnes X bullets EXCLUSIVELY at our camp for the last 11 years. We started with the X, the XLC and are now all on the TSX. The rifles are .308 Win, .30-06, 7mm Mag, 300Win and 300Wby Mag. We must have downed 100 deerfrom 80lb doe to a nearly 300lb buck and bullet performance was flawless. All deer either dropped in their tracks or stumbled a few feet and fell.

A buddy shot a buck (maybe 170lbs) through both shoulders with his 300WM and a 150X bullet.ML was around 3300fps and the deer was about 40 yards broadside. The entrance hole was about caliber size and the exit about an inch and a half - at most. However, when we skinned it, we saw that it was pretty much pulverized. Both shoulders were comletely destroyed. The lungs were liquified. Did this deer die quickly? Yep :D

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I personally always wanted to try them in my rifles but have heard horror stories about how bad they copper foul a barrel. Scirocco II's were bad enough for me.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

I can guarantee you TSX will not foul a barrel near like a scirocco or a TBBC. In fact, it fouls about as much as a typical partition.

RE: Reloading Questions for 300 WM
 

IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 are too fast for the .300 Win. Mag.