OAL ???
08-05-2006, 08:37 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: MB.
Posts: 2,984
RE: OAL ???
I used to have a set of fiberglass arrows when shooting competition at school and thought they were obsolete but I guess like BC said there still around , all thought I’ve never seen any but I wasn’t looking either. Looks like we all make little mistakes once in a while when hunting, all part of the game...
08-06-2006, 12:49 PM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,647
RE: OAL ???
ORIGINAL: BigBob .30-06
longbeard,
I always load my bullets at a length that a bullet blacken with soot will show land marks in the soot, but will not show a bright spot where the lands actually touched the bullet. Or, just touching the lands. I've proved to my own satisfaction to many times to count, that this is the point that usually gives the best accuracy. There have been a few times that this has not been the case, but not very many. Sometimes OAL is determined by length of rifle action or magazine.Or by location of cannelure on a bullet, such as for lever action rifles. I even go to the point of determining the actual length of a chambers neck length. Then I'll trim my case necks .005" short of the max length just to get as much neck length holding a bullet as I can.
longbeard,
I always load my bullets at a length that a bullet blacken with soot will show land marks in the soot, but will not show a bright spot where the lands actually touched the bullet. Or, just touching the lands. I've proved to my own satisfaction to many times to count, that this is the point that usually gives the best accuracy. There have been a few times that this has not been the case, but not very many. Sometimes OAL is determined by length of rifle action or magazine.Or by location of cannelure on a bullet, such as for lever action rifles. I even go to the point of determining the actual length of a chambers neck length. Then I'll trim my case necks .005" short of the max length just to get as much neck length holding a bullet as I can.
When you load like that. how much do you reduce your loads from max???
08-08-2006, 02:16 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: RIO RANCHO NEW MEXICO USA
Posts: 168
RE: OAL ???
longbeard,
Since I start load testing with the bullet touching the lands, and use the ladder method to determine the most accurate load for a rifle, I use the standard pressure indications to know when to stop. Although I do load test loads up to one full grain over book max in my loads, I seldom shoot them because of pressure indications. I increase my loads in half grain increments. The same holds troe for long case necks. The cases I use for test loads have already been fully prepped, fire formed and neck sized for the test loads. I use middle of the book loads for fireforming loads and have never hade a problem. Sometimes the test rifle used by the book writters will also cause me to ad an additional grain of powder weight to my test loads. If the book used a 26" barrel in their testing and I'm using a 22" barreled rifle my test loads are over book. HOW EVER!!!! Start low and work your way up. Let your rifle tell you what it likes and dislikes and what safe pressures are. If you don't already have one, buy a good Mic that will read in .0001". Use it faithfully when working up loads. IMHO, when a case head has expanded .5000" you have reached a safe limit. Measure each case before being fired and after being fired at the same place on the case head. If something doesn't feel right, stop until you know what caused the difference. If you can't figure it out, pack up and go home, or shoot a different rifle
Since I start load testing with the bullet touching the lands, and use the ladder method to determine the most accurate load for a rifle, I use the standard pressure indications to know when to stop. Although I do load test loads up to one full grain over book max in my loads, I seldom shoot them because of pressure indications. I increase my loads in half grain increments. The same holds troe for long case necks. The cases I use for test loads have already been fully prepped, fire formed and neck sized for the test loads. I use middle of the book loads for fireforming loads and have never hade a problem. Sometimes the test rifle used by the book writters will also cause me to ad an additional grain of powder weight to my test loads. If the book used a 26" barrel in their testing and I'm using a 22" barreled rifle my test loads are over book. HOW EVER!!!! Start low and work your way up. Let your rifle tell you what it likes and dislikes and what safe pressures are. If you don't already have one, buy a good Mic that will read in .0001". Use it faithfully when working up loads. IMHO, when a case head has expanded .5000" you have reached a safe limit. Measure each case before being fired and after being fired at the same place on the case head. If something doesn't feel right, stop until you know what caused the difference. If you can't figure it out, pack up and go home, or shoot a different rifle
08-09-2006, 08:01 PM
#24
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 505
RE: OAL ???
Wow, I've read some things here that go against my grain....so to speak.....what kind of a rifle and caliber are we talking about here?? Little caliber, big caliber, hot hunting loads max recommended loads?? Help me out here, because if you are loading 300 Win Mags at max loads and running them close to the lands, you are hurting your rifle, hurting your accuracy and possibly hurting potentially...yourself. Just ask Roy Weatherby. Now if we are talking about a 223 Remington, then knock yourself out. Most big game rifles like a little jump.....20 to 50 thousandths for lower chamber pressure and optimum accuracy at max loads. My 220 Swift likes them 5 thousandths off....My Sako 30'06 needs 50 thousandths. Once you see a flat primer, better back off or seat a bit deeper. I've been doing this since 1962 and have a bit of experience here. You might also want to use a chroney to see the difference in speed. Hot hunting load......back um off....soft tatget load....whatever tunes your ukelele. Regards, Rick.
08-10-2006, 04:14 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: RIO RANCHO NEW MEXICO USA
Posts: 168
RE: OAL ???
Rick,
Evidently I'm not saying this very clearly and have mixed in a good helping of confusion. Let me try this again. First, don't get hung up on the fact that I prefer to start my test loads with the bullet touching the lands. Just look at methodology.
First, I've been loading for close to 55 years. Now when I say that I'm aware that I may have had one years experience, fifty-five times. Or fifty-five years of evolving, expanding experience. Since I have no control over what you will decide, I'll just let you make your own decision.
Now to start. I start from the basis that all rifles are individuals and will require different strokes for differents rifles. At one time , I had rifles that had never fired factory ammo, and was kind of proud of that fact. Now one of the first things I buy is a box of factory ammo. Once the rifle has been tuned, without ever having been fired, and a scope mounted it's time for that trip to the range. Tuning consist of a trigger adjustment and glass bedding of the stock in the action area and the chamber area of the barrel. The rest of the barrel is free floated. All twenty rounds are fired and the results logged in the steno pad I've bought just for that rifle. Velocities, group size and measurements of fired cases compared to unfired cases are logged. Velocity differences obtained from a clean and dirty are noted and the rifle is cleaned at least twice during the outing. The fired cases will also give me the headspace of my new rifle chamber.Now I have a starting point for reloading.
The fired cases tell me if I have a tight chamber or a large chamber. A chamber length gage from Sinclair will give me the exact length of the neck length of the chamber. If all indications of the chamber is that it's a tight chamber, then I'll try factory cases. If the chamber is on the large side then I will modify cases for other cartridges to the cartridge I'll be loading. One of the cases I use quite a bit for the .30-06 is the . 280 Remington case. Since the shoulder of the .280 is .050" longer than the '06 they give me a lot of room to full length resize the .280 case to the exact headspace of my rifle. This eliminates excessive case stretch when the cases are fireformed. Case necks are trimmed to a length .005" shorter than the actual chamber length. Since I already know what the headspace is going to be, and the diameter of the chamber neck, I like to turn the outside of the case necks to a thickness where the case neck, with a bullet seated, is .002" smaller than the chamber. This will allow the neck, during firing, to expand and release the bullet. Primer pockets are uniformed and flash holes deburred. before firing, cases are culled by weight. I usually start with 150 cases in the hopes of ending up with 50 to 60 cases.
Fireforming consist of a middle of the book charge, usually with H-4895 and bullets that were culled because they didn't meet weight restrictions.
Now to reloading. I like a powder to fill a case, without being compressed. In the .30-06, H-4350 works nicely. I view all the current manuals I have, which are several. In the case of the 150 grain bullet, there are huge difference. I attempt to use data from manuals that used a rifle close too mine in working up their data. It the books show loads from 54.0 grains to 62.0 grains, I will usually start at 56.0 grains and load three rounds per load all the way up to 63.0 grains. Loads are in half grain increments. At the range I start with the lowest loads and chonograph all loads. Every case is miked. If a case expands .0005" in the extractorgroove, I stop. My max pressure has been reached. I also visually check every case for pressure signs. If I have visual indications of pressure, I also stop. My goal is accuracy, tiny group. A half grain increase in powder usually results in a velocity increase of about 25 fps. I believe it is much more important to place a bullet where I want it, than to get an additional 25 fps of velocity. I pull a lot of bullets and flush a lot of powder, and I don't mind that a bit. Having to follow up an animal that didn't drop at the shot, that I mind a bunch.
Well that is how I do it. If you don't approve, don't do it that way.
I've started a lot of new poeple into hand loading. One thing I have never done is to use more powder to make the bullet go faster.
Evidently I'm not saying this very clearly and have mixed in a good helping of confusion. Let me try this again. First, don't get hung up on the fact that I prefer to start my test loads with the bullet touching the lands. Just look at methodology.
First, I've been loading for close to 55 years. Now when I say that I'm aware that I may have had one years experience, fifty-five times. Or fifty-five years of evolving, expanding experience. Since I have no control over what you will decide, I'll just let you make your own decision.
Now to start. I start from the basis that all rifles are individuals and will require different strokes for differents rifles. At one time , I had rifles that had never fired factory ammo, and was kind of proud of that fact. Now one of the first things I buy is a box of factory ammo. Once the rifle has been tuned, without ever having been fired, and a scope mounted it's time for that trip to the range. Tuning consist of a trigger adjustment and glass bedding of the stock in the action area and the chamber area of the barrel. The rest of the barrel is free floated. All twenty rounds are fired and the results logged in the steno pad I've bought just for that rifle. Velocities, group size and measurements of fired cases compared to unfired cases are logged. Velocity differences obtained from a clean and dirty are noted and the rifle is cleaned at least twice during the outing. The fired cases will also give me the headspace of my new rifle chamber.Now I have a starting point for reloading.
The fired cases tell me if I have a tight chamber or a large chamber. A chamber length gage from Sinclair will give me the exact length of the neck length of the chamber. If all indications of the chamber is that it's a tight chamber, then I'll try factory cases. If the chamber is on the large side then I will modify cases for other cartridges to the cartridge I'll be loading. One of the cases I use quite a bit for the .30-06 is the . 280 Remington case. Since the shoulder of the .280 is .050" longer than the '06 they give me a lot of room to full length resize the .280 case to the exact headspace of my rifle. This eliminates excessive case stretch when the cases are fireformed. Case necks are trimmed to a length .005" shorter than the actual chamber length. Since I already know what the headspace is going to be, and the diameter of the chamber neck, I like to turn the outside of the case necks to a thickness where the case neck, with a bullet seated, is .002" smaller than the chamber. This will allow the neck, during firing, to expand and release the bullet. Primer pockets are uniformed and flash holes deburred. before firing, cases are culled by weight. I usually start with 150 cases in the hopes of ending up with 50 to 60 cases.
Fireforming consist of a middle of the book charge, usually with H-4895 and bullets that were culled because they didn't meet weight restrictions.
Now to reloading. I like a powder to fill a case, without being compressed. In the .30-06, H-4350 works nicely. I view all the current manuals I have, which are several. In the case of the 150 grain bullet, there are huge difference. I attempt to use data from manuals that used a rifle close too mine in working up their data. It the books show loads from 54.0 grains to 62.0 grains, I will usually start at 56.0 grains and load three rounds per load all the way up to 63.0 grains. Loads are in half grain increments. At the range I start with the lowest loads and chonograph all loads. Every case is miked. If a case expands .0005" in the extractorgroove, I stop. My max pressure has been reached. I also visually check every case for pressure signs. If I have visual indications of pressure, I also stop. My goal is accuracy, tiny group. A half grain increase in powder usually results in a velocity increase of about 25 fps. I believe it is much more important to place a bullet where I want it, than to get an additional 25 fps of velocity. I pull a lot of bullets and flush a lot of powder, and I don't mind that a bit. Having to follow up an animal that didn't drop at the shot, that I mind a bunch.
Well that is how I do it. If you don't approve, don't do it that way.
I've started a lot of new poeple into hand loading. One thing I have never done is to use more powder to make the bullet go faster.
