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etothepii 11-05-2008 11:57 AM

Opinion from veterans
 
One of Obama's plans is to fully integrate homosexuals into the military. Is this an idea whose time has come, or should Obama follow the advice of his top adviser and keep the military the way it is? Personally, I have no military experience, so I can't comprehend the consequences of this.

Consider this a "moving on" thread. I'm ready to discuss President Obama.

RenaissanceBiker 11-05-2008 12:10 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
I have not heard this from Obama so I don't know if this is a leftover campaign rumor. I am an honorably dischargedveteran of the U.S. Army. I'm sure that homosexuals have served us well in our armed forces in the past. They may have done so in secret, but that doesn't mean they haven't served as well as anyone else. What is it about homosexuals that makes you think they can't? They are people, no better or worse than anyone else. You probably know more of them than you think.

etothepii 11-05-2008 12:13 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington-whispers/2008/10/31/barack-obamas-military-adviser-says-to-stick-with-gay-ban.html?s_cid=rss:washington-whispers:barack-obamas-military-adviser-says-to-stick-with-gay-ban

etothepii 11-05-2008 12:14 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

What is it about homosexuals that makes you think they can't?
I never said any such thing! In fact, I said:


Personally, I have no military experience, so I can't comprehend the consequences of this.

kevin1 11-05-2008 12:21 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Gays have served our country since day one, letting them "come out" won't make things any better

bigbulls 11-05-2008 01:17 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
IMO gays should not be allowed in the military unless the military was willing to accomodate. I too am honorably discharged from the navy and I would not want a homosexual man sleeping and showering with me.

Straight men are not allowed to share quarters with straight women.

Gay men or womenshould not be allowed to share quarters with straight men or women.

LBR 11-05-2008 01:54 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Is this an idea whose time has come
NO! Most soldiers have open bay showers, share a room with several others, etc. It's demoralizing, besides opening up a whole 'nother can of worms as far as "sexual harrassment", "hate crimes" etc. are concerned. We don't need that garbage in the military.

Chad

RenaissanceBiker 11-05-2008 01:54 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls
I too am honorably discharged from the navy and I would not want a homosexual man sleeping and showering with me.
I don't know you or anything about your military experience, but chances are that did happen to you without any consequence.

slicktrick_hunter1 11-05-2008 06:15 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

but chances are that did happen to you without any consequence.
Yes it did happend and there were consequences.

The person I am refering to wasassigned to be mysponsor (person assigned to show you around)when I arrived on board USS Caron in Norfolk, VA in 1994. Before I knew about this persons homosexuality he offeredto let mestay at his and his wifes (on paper only, extra $$$) house untilI was able to move my wife down there and rent a house so I wouldn't have to stay on the ship every night. I accepted his offer and slept on a blow up mattress in the living room.I started noticing things about him and his mannerismsand after about two or three weeks I was asleep in the living room and this person decided to take itupon himself to crawl into the bed with me. Needless to say that was the last time I was ever in his house.

He was kicked out of the Navy a few months later.

That **** don't fly with me and as far asI am concerned they do not belong int he military!

bigbulls 11-05-2008 06:18 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Dang it, I posted under my sons user name.

That's me above.

Chuck7 11-05-2008 06:19 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
4 years United States Infantry,,last 14 months were at the White House Honor Guard..SIR!!;)

Gays would be a big distraction sir!

They carry within themselves a strong demonic spirt ..and demonic spirits only cause division and confusion sir!

RenaissanceBiker 11-05-2008 06:31 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
A demonic spirit?

Fieldmouse 11-05-2008 06:38 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
No keep the ban in place!

falcon 11-05-2008 06:42 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Leave the lawlike it is.

i spent a career in the US Army. During the time that i served gays were not allowed in the military: There were gays in the U S army, however. There werea fewguysi suspected of being gay but they never did anything out of line. One has a DSC anda Silver Star, heretired as a LTC. Only knew one guy who was a flaming homosexual: Caught him in the act with a Korean soldier. Went and got a witness who puked when he saw that.

The unit CO refused to press charges on the guy.

907Alaska 11-05-2008 10:02 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: LBR


Is this an idea whose time has come
NO! Most soldiers have open bay showers, share a room with several others, etc. It's demoralizing, besides opening up a whole 'nother can of worms as far as "sexual harrassment", "hate crimes" etc. are concerned. We don't need that garbage in the military.

Chad
Honorably discharged from the USAF...and I would have to concur

LBR 11-06-2008 06:04 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
I'll add that "there's already some in there, so why not make it legal" makes as much sense as saying since we know there are child molesters in our midst, let's make that legal. There are prostitutes all over, legalize that too. Murder? Why not....no sense in descriminating.

Honorably discharged from the U.S. Army.

Chad

Vabowman 11-06-2008 07:23 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
I hate to be the one to tell you, but gays are already in the military. You think all marines are straight?? Not a chance bro. Child molestation is against the law, being gay isn't. I don't support the lifestyle, but how is Adam and Steve being together affecting you?

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 08:32 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: Vabowman

I hate to be the one to tell you, but gays are already in the military. You think all marines are straight?? Not a chance bro. Child molestation is against the law, being gay isn't. I don't support the lifestyle, but how is Adam and Steve being together affecting you?
+1; If homosexuals are willing to put their life on the line to protect our country, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. Of course, I'm not homophobic though so its not surprise I feel this way;)

C. Davis 11-06-2008 08:47 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: bigbulls

Dang it, I posted under my sons user name.

That's me above.
BB,
After that blowup mattress story I think I would havecounted that mistake a blessing and helped your son come up with another user name.



C. Davis

LBR 11-06-2008 05:26 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

Child molestation is against the law, being gay isn't.
It isn't allowed in the military--but what does it being legal have to do with the question? Did you serve? Whether you did or not, I guess you wouldn't have a problem getting in an open bay shower with 10 or 20 flaming gays? Or sharing a tent where you sleep dang near stacked on top of each other? Or on a sub? Or a room you have to share with 7 or 9 other guys?


Of course, I'm not homophobic though so its not surprise I feel this way
Of course, I assume you've never served in the armed forces yourself, and the question was asked for those of us who have. If you haven't served,then you really don't have a clue how you would feel.

Again, it would be a nightmare. Separate quarters for gays? Could male and female gays bunk together, since they have no desire for each other? Could gays of the same sex bunk together, or should they be separated just like normal males and females? Military guys aggravate and carry on with each other worse than construction crews (been there too)--I can just see the lawsuits and claims of "sexual harrassment".Not to mention the extra medical costs (my wife works in the medical field--'nuff said). Like I said, a whole bunch of garbage that the military doesn't need, and a distraction the soldiers don't need.

Chad

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 07:38 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: LBR

Of course, I assume you've never served in the armed forces yourself, and the question was asked for those of us who have. If you haven't served,then you really don't have a clue how you would feel.

Again, it would be a nightmare. Separate quarters for gays? Could male and female gays bunk together, since they have no desire for each other? Could gays of the same sex bunk together, or should they be separated just like normal males and females? Military guys aggravate and carry on with each other worse than construction crews (been there too)--I can just see the lawsuits and claims of "sexual harrassment".Not to mention the extra medical costs (my wife works in the medical field--'nuff said). Like I said, a whole bunch of garbage that the military doesn't need, and a distraction the soldiers don't need.

Chad

ORIGINAL: LBR

Of course, I assume you've never served in the armed forces yourself, and the question was asked for those of us who have. If you haven't served,then you really don't have a clue how you would feel.

Again, it would be a nightmare. Separate quarters for gays? Could male and female gays bunk together, since they have no desire for each other? Could gays of the same sex bunk together, or should they be separated just like normal males and females? Military guys aggravate and carry on with each other worse than construction crews (been there too)--I can just see the lawsuits and claims of "sexual harrassment".Not to mention the extra medical costs (my wife works in the medical field--'nuff said). Like I said, a whole bunch of garbage that the military doesn't need, and a distraction the soldiers don't need.

IMO, and again you don't have to point out that I've never served, but for those who are there for their country and confident in their sexuality should have nothing to worry about. Sexual harassment from a gay man would be as likely to occur as it is between a man and a woman, so however likely that is, take it for what its worth. If you're there for your country and nothing else, why would someone else's sexuality bother you? I think its a little pretentious on your part to think YOU have something to worry about.


907Alaska 11-06-2008 07:56 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: LBR

Of course, I assume you've never served in the armed forces yourself, and the question was asked for those of us who have. If you haven't served,then you really don't have a clue how you would feel.

Again, it would be a nightmare. Separate quarters for gays? Could male and female gays bunk together, since they have no desire for each other? Could gays of the same sex bunk together, or should they be separated just like normal males and females? Military guys aggravate and carry on with each other worse than construction crews (been there too)--I can just see the lawsuits and claims of "sexual harrassment".Not to mention the extra medical costs (my wife works in the medical field--'nuff said). Like I said, a whole bunch of garbage that the military doesn't need, and a distraction the soldiers don't need.

Chad

ORIGINAL: LBR

Of course, I assume you've never served in the armed forces yourself, and the question was asked for those of us who have. If you haven't served,then you really don't have a clue how you would feel.

Again, it would be a nightmare. Separate quarters for gays? Could male and female gays bunk together, since they have no desire for each other? Could gays of the same sex bunk together, or should they be separated just like normal males and females? Military guys aggravate and carry on with each other worse than construction crews (been there too)--I can just see the lawsuits and claims of "sexual harrassment".Not to mention the extra medical costs (my wife works in the medical field--'nuff said). Like I said, a whole bunch of garbage that the military doesn't need, and a distraction the soldiers don't need.

IMO, and again you don't have to point out that I've never served, but for those who are there for their country and confident in their sexuality should have nothing to worry about. Sexual harassment from a gay man would be as likely to occur as it is between a man and a woman, so however likely that is, take it for what its worth. If you're there for your country and nothing else, why would someone else's sexuality bother you? I think its a little pretentious on your part to think YOU have something to worry about.
Looks like you just don't get the picture!

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 08:02 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: targethogs

Looks like you just don't get the picture!
Guess i'm too open minded to diversity to get this picture ;)but you can try and explain it to me if you'd like

Leafrivermac 11-06-2008 08:24 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Oh yeah, of course there were *****s in the military even when I was in the Army. They were'nt out in the open so as to cause a ruckus tho. I don't think these folk should be sanctioned by the military as they are an embarassment.
Of course maybe they could all be put together to form an interrogation unit.:D

US Army HD 1969-72

Fieldmouse 11-06-2008 08:28 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: targethogs

Looks like you just don't get the picture!
Guess i'm too open minded to diversity to get this picture ;)but you can try and explain it to me if you'd like
Hey wahoo, you don't have a clue. Let me know when you find yourself in smaller living quarters than prisoners have. My living area when I went on my west pac trip had 8 men sharing an area that was 8' X 8'. I had 18" between my rack and the guy above me.

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 08:31 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: Fieldmouse


ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: targethogs

Looks like you just don't get the picture!
Guess i'm too open minded to diversity to get this picture ;)but you can try and explain it to me if you'd like
Hey wahoo, you don't have a clue. Let me know when you find yourself in smaller living quarters than prisoners have. My living area when I went on my west pac trip had 8 men sharing an area that was 8' X 8'. I had 18" between my rack and the guy above me.
OK, so the guy above you or below you is gay and you don't know it, does that affect anything at all?

If he is gay, you know it and you're an open minded individual who believes each is entitled to their own rights, opinions and choices, again, does that affect anything at all?

Fieldmouse 11-06-2008 08:33 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
No if he's out of the closet his out of the service. Plain and simple, whatswrong with that? It's gays who demand special treatment and force their beliefs on us.

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 08:41 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: Fieldmouse

No if he's out of the closet his out of the service. Plain and simple, whatswrong with that? It's gays who demand special treatment and force their beliefs on us.
I have several gay friends and even gay relatives, and I've NeVeR found that to be the case. I guess our opinions differ based on the differences in folks with which we've dealt.

Leafrivermac 11-06-2008 08:47 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

I have several gay friends and even gay relatives, and I've NeVeR found that to be the case. I guess our opinions differ based on the differences in folks with which we've dealt.
Must be lots of them there in Charlottesville. I don't have any "gay" friends or relatives that I know of. I do know of one dude who is kind of prissy and have wondered if maybe he is.

wahoohunter 11-06-2008 09:01 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: Leafrivermac


I have several gay friends and even gay relatives, and I've NeVeR found that to be the case. I guess our opinions differ based on the differences in folks with which we've dealt.
Must be lots of them there in Charlottesville. I don't have any "gay" friends or relatives that I know of. I do know of one dude who is kind of prissy and have wondered if maybe he is.
i think there's a lot "of them" everywhere its just that some areas (such as a liberal school) are more willing to open their arms to homosexuals. i know here we have a QSU (***** student union) that is a regularly accepted and acknowledged club with many members, some of whom are gay, some of whom are not

bigbulls 11-06-2008 10:05 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

BB,
After that blowup mattress story I think I would havecounted that mistake a blessing and helped your son come up with another user name.
Why? He bow hunts and uses slick trick broadheads.


OK, so the guy above you or below you is gay and you don't know it, does that affect anything at all?
Not untilI find out. Eventually it will be found out.


If he is gay, you know it and you're an open minded individual who believes each is entitled to their own rights, opinions and choices, again, does that affect anything at all?
You're damn right it does!

Sexual harassment from a gay man would be as likely to occur as it is between a man and a woman, so however likely that is, take it for what its worth.
You haven't had toeat, sleep, shower, crap, piss,etc... etc... with hundreds of men for months on end. The men and women that are out there do not need this kind of crap to worry about. There are enough problems having men and women serving together with adultry, pregnancy while on deployment away from spouces, sexual harrassment, etc... etc... You don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Wahoo,I am completely secure in my sexuality. Go back to page 2 and read whatI wrote there.I sure as hell didn't need to deal with that crap while on deployment in the middle of the AtlanticOcean on a 563 foot long shipknowing that he was gay and had already made advances toward me and sleeping in the same birthing as I was.Screw that! For you to sit here and lecture those of us that have actuallyserved and know first hand what the living arrangements are really like is a bunch of Bull Crap.


I have several gay friends and even gay relatives, and I've NeVeR found that to be the case. I guess our opinions differ based on the differences in folks with which we've dealt.
I too have a gay relative and one that died from AIDS whenI was a kid. Thoughmy uncleis not one that pushes his beliefs on othersI would not want him serving in the military. I guess you have never seen the gay pride parades that get so much attention?????? I guess you have never seen any gay celebrities that have the need to "come out" on television for all the world to know??????? You don't see us straight people having straight pride parades or proclaiming our straightness on television do you?

You need to wake up and smell the **** that is coming out of your mouth or at least keep it over there in your little liberal college community so we don't have to breathe the stench. Sometimes you just need to keep your mouth shut.

907Alaska 11-06-2008 11:06 PM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
Way to go bigbulls!

LBR 11-07-2008 06:43 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

IMO, and again you don't have to point out that I've never served, but for those who are there for their country and confident in their sexuality should have nothing to worry about. Sexual harassment from a gay man would be as likely to occur as it is between a man and a woman, so however likely that is, take it for what its worth. If you're there for your country and nothing else, why would someone else's sexuality bother you? I think its a little pretentious on your part to think YOU have something to worry about.
Typical liberal mindset. First, invite yourself into a conversation where you have no business--again, the opionions of those who have served were asked for. Then, although you don't have any experience whatsoever concerning the question asked, you think you know more than those of us who have and can only come up with insults because you don't agree, while ignoring the obvious and valid reasons. I can see where you might not understand because you don't have a clue about military service.....so when you don't have any idea about the topic, why do you feel compelled to chime in?

Do you even know that the military has it's own laws andcourt system? I'll let you in on something--there's a reason for that. Military life is not the same as civilian life. 'Course my bet is you'll never understand that, because the only way to understand it is to live it.

Spot on BB!

Chad

wahoohunter 11-07-2008 07:10 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: LBR

Typical liberal mindset. First, invite yourself into a conversation where you have no business--again, the opionions of those who have served were asked for.

Haha, I don't see you lecturing those who haven't served who share your opinions;) Quite the double standard, eh? But then again, that tends to be how you guys work;)


Wahoo,I am completely secure in my sexuality. Go back to page 2 and read whatI wrote there.I sure as hell didn't need to deal with that crap while on deployment in the middle of the AtlanticOcean on a 563 foot long shipknowing that he was gay and had already made advances toward me and sleeping in the same birthing as I was.Screw that! For you to sit here and lecture those of us that have actuallyserved and know first hand what the living arrangements are really like is a bunch of Bull Crap.
Fair enough and I'll leave it alone after this, but I will just say that "that crap" is merely your opinion of a lifestyle that many agree is not a choice but a way one is born. That being said, if one is born a certain way then it is not "that crap," and it not something that needs to be "dealt with" merely something that need be and should be accepted.


BigTiny 11-07-2008 07:15 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 


ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: LBR

Typical liberal mindset. First, invite yourself into a conversation where you have no business--again, the opionions of those who have served were asked for.

Haha, I don't see you lecturing those who haven't served who share your opinions;) Quite the double standard, eh? But then again, that tends to be how you guys work;)

It's a veteran thing, you wouldn't understand.

wahoohunter 11-07-2008 07:22 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: BigTiny


ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: LBR

Typical liberal mindset. First, invite yourself into a conversation where you have no business--again, the opionions of those who have served were asked for.

Haha, I don't see you lecturing those who haven't served who share your opinions Quite the double standard, eh? But then again, that tends to be how you guys work

It's a veteran thing, you wouldn't understand.
My apologies, then, I was under the understanding that it was an open forum.
But explain to me what I don't understand, please. How is it OK to lecture nonveterans who have differing opinions about how they don't have any right to speak but if a nonvet shares a concurring opinion they are welcomed with open arms?

BigTiny 11-07-2008 07:25 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 


ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: BigTiny


ORIGINAL: wahoohunter


ORIGINAL: LBR

Typical liberal mindset. First, invite yourself into a conversation where you have no business--again, the opionions of those who have served were asked for.

Haha, I don't see you lecturing those who haven't served who share your opinions Quite the double standard, eh? But then again, that tends to be how you guys work

It's a veteran thing, you wouldn't understand.
My apologies, then, I was under the understanding that it was an open forum.
But explain to me what I don't understand, please. How is it OK to lecture nonveterans who have differing opinions about how they don't have any right to speak but if a nonvet shares a concurring opinion they are welcomed with open arms?
It is an open forum, but you should know by the thread title you should come in wearing a cup. You have a right to speak (you're welcome), but don't expect not to receive return fire.

Vabowman 11-07-2008 07:25 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 
LBR, no I have never served. I thank you for your service sir. I don't know how I would feel in the shower with flaming gays, never been in one..have you? How does it feel if so? Seriously Im asking. Again I do not believe in the lifestyle, it's not something I condone, but I also know that it is fact of life that people are gay, what do you want to do about? It turns my stomach to think about the lifestyle, but Im not gay and have never been hit on by a gay guy. so I can't relate your question about gays in the shower.

LBR 11-07-2008 07:50 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

I don't see you lecturing those who haven't served who share your opinions Quite the double standard, eh?
I didn't notice where anyone who didn't serve agreed with me. It was blatently obvious from your posts you haven't. What would be the point in questioning someone who agreed anyway? Can you point out one of these individuals you are talking about?


My apologies, then, I was under the understanding that it was an open forum.
But explain to me what I don't understand, please. How is it OK to lecture nonveterans who have differing opinions about how they don't have any right to speak but if a nonvet shares a concurring opinion they are welcomed with open arms?
It is an open forum, otherwise your posts would have been removed.

You got a "lecture" because you obviously don't have a clue, yet insult those of us that actually have served because you don't like our opinion. You really don't see the idiocy in this, and how insulting it is, do you?


I don't know how I would feel in the shower with flaming gays, never been in one..have you? How does it feel if so?
I don't know how that situation would feel, because I served even before Clinton and his "don't ask, don't tell" policy. However, there were a few suspects in the barracks and I made it a point to not be in the shower when they were.


what do you want to do about
For starters, keep them from being open about it in the military, and getting rid of the ones that are. It's a disctraction we don't need.


You have a right to speak (you're welcome), but don't expect not to receive return fire.
Bingo.

Chad

RenaissanceBiker 11-07-2008 08:10 AM

RE: Opinion from veterans
 

ORIGINAL: BigTiny
It's a veteran thing, you wouldn't understand.
I'm a veteran and I understand completely. It doesn't bother me but it appears to bother you a lot. I can only say that prejudice andhateare symptoms of fear, the kind of fear that comes from ignorance. Don't feel threatened if a gay man makes a pass at you. Just treat him like an ugly woman and politely decline. There's no need to round up alynch mobor ruin his career.


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