RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

Speed limits will not help. If they did scores in organizations that have them would be closer than scores in our events. They are not.

Equipment choices and the performance of the equipment chosen is all relative. Most of the folks that are making suggestions here are experienced shooters and have made decisions upon the bow or arrow that was purchased on that experience. Many set ups may be faster than yours, but the choice was yours to make. My wifes bow is a 25 3/4 inch draw set at 50 pounds. Her arrow speed is 291 fps. She seems to shoot it pretty well also. My point is that if yours is faster that was your choice, if it is slower that to was your choice.
Some is faster than others. Some have greater brace heights than others. Some are prettier than others. But the one you pick is your choice.
But I have a question about some of the purported speeds brought up on the forums. How come when we check equipment at our events we do not see these speeds? 330,340 Bubba shoots 350. Where are they, and how come if they have such an advantage; why ain't they showin up at the chronographs and on the podium? ;)

New shooters generally do not have a clue about real bow performance levels. They come to a shoot because someone asked them or they saw a neighbor shooting his bow in his yard and it looked like fun.
Whether he continues or not will depend more on how he is welcomed far more than how fast his bow is.
From what I/ we hear the negative attitudes of shooters do far more to kill a new shooters enthusiasm far, far more than any rules do.

I am sorry for getting off on this tack but we had a great set of proposals and concepts going here and now it seems to be going down a very old road.
I tell you what lets do, I will see if we can keep a record of speeds checked at the worlds. I think we can ask some of the top shooters that are using the 5 grains per pound structures for their equipment to shoot through the chronographs.
As a hint, when guys are bragging about how fast their rig is, check the pins or sight tapes. I measured my wifes tape the other day and it is just a hair under 1/2 inch from 20 to 50 with a six inch sight extension. I will check AA and see what it is for 330 and let you know. I think between 3/8 and 1/4.
If it ain't that tight , it ain't that fa-a-ast!

Speaking of this, note the new chronograph policy: You shoot it, you bought it. We have had five of them killed in the first six months of the year. Just a small point of order.
Let's look at this as a benefit to the game and not ourselves. What can make the game grow more or make the game better for all of us.
No axes ground on company time!
ken12
My name is Ken and I am a 3-Daholic. My draw length is 28 inches and I can only shoot one arrow at a time.

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

Ken, I agree with you on the speed thing, I just havent seen too many screamers while shooting, I would bet that only a few were at 300fps. As we are seeing, there are a ton of ideas about what we can or should do, and it feels like while weighing these ideas its coming back around to changing nothing. Whether or not changing anything will make it better to get new people started shooting as regular as we do, and showing up to shoot, I dont know. I am seeing a lot of really good ideas, most of which I could live with, some I would welcome. But how do we begin to narrow them and come to a concesus on what changes (if any) we want to see? I realize that we may not be able to see into the future, but what pitfalls will we be expecting? None of us want to see the attendance decline, and that is what needs to be avoided, and at all possible to get more to show up. thanks butchb.

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

I think that the 11 ring is one of the best ideas the IBO has had in a long time. It was voted on after it was put into the game and the majority of shooters liked it. The 11ring is not the problem in the H.C. The problem in the H.C is in my opinion a first time shooter goes out and shoots the best score of their life lets say a 365 or 380 and they are proud of what they have done. Then they are standing around the tents or maybe doing some shopping and they start hearing guys talk about how they shot today. These guys are saying things like man I wish I wouldnt have shot that 8 today or I only shot 415 or 418 I dont think thats going to get me in the top 10. Then the new guy dosent feel so good anymore and he maybe might be thinking about not comming back. How many people have herd someone say it wouldnt do me any good to go to the IBO shoots because I cant shoot anywhere near 410 or 415 so I wont even try. Its not the equipment or the speed its the scores that intimidate new shooters. I would bet that a person just starting in 3d would have a better chance at being competative in the MBR then in HC right now. Hey I think its great that these guys shoot these high scores it makes me work harder to shoot better. But I have been in this game a few years and I know what kind of competation I am up against in the so called Hunter Class. Is it fair or fun for a new shooter to come to a shoot, spend about 150 dollars if their lucky and then have to shoot against Burly Hall. I dont know whats going to happen in the H.C but I am glad it is being discused and that BowPro is involved in it. I think a good answer is a point system.We should let the hunters have the Hunter Class and the more serious 3d shooters should go to another level and compete with each other. Hey but thats just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

About the 280fps suggestion
The suggestion i made about 280fps is just one of many made on this forum, If i offended anybody i am TRULY sorry.I put 280 fps in there as part of a overall plan not because of scores. So everybody knows i shoot 255 fps. This is the speed i hunt with and the speed t compete at.There is a big difference to me between 255 & 280, if i had wanted it more for me i would have said 260fps. We keep coming back to local clubs and target life. The reason i put 280 fps in there is because of penetration. If you shoot a target at 280fps or less and after awhile turn it around it will last longer because of how deep the arrow penetrates. most of the time at over 280fps the arrow penetrates past halfway.I do not know how many people shoot over 280 at the national event and i really don't care, i know i have shot with a few, some shot better than me and some didn't. The suggestions i make is for the BENEFIT OF THE GAME and not myself. I have no axes to grind with anybody. I have benn in this sport for 31 years and it has been fun and i plan on keeping it that way.If 280 is out so be it, i have no problem with that. There is a lot of other good ideals on this forum, LET'S TALK ABOUT THEM!
Again i am truly sorry if i offened anybody
TRIPLETT

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

Hmm…let me get this straight; we have a very popular class drawing over 300 shooters at each national event and we want to make changes to it? I don’t quite understand the logic there. I’ve not heard any complaints about the HC except from a few on this forum. Sounds to me like those complaining are in the minority. If you make changes to appease those 10%, what happens to the other 90% who like things the way they are?

It sounds to me like some in the HC want a rule change that will cause everyone above them to have to move to another class, suddenly putting them on the top. Wouldn’t we all like that to happen. I don’t see where a non-competitive class would be helpful because if someone is complaining that there are a lot of scores much higher than theirs then it sounds to me like they’re being competitive. Why not just accept the fact that you’re a beginning/novice shooter, you’re likely not going to win and just go out and have a good time. That’s how I approach it. I have a personal goal and that’s what I go out to achieve.

But if it’s the beginning shooter that we’re worried about then maybe another class would help things. Maybe they(we) need a class of their own, same HC rules, lower fee than HC, give them their score cards, but don’t post the scores for that class and give no trophies or prizes (maybe a drawing similar to the defense course as someone already mentioned). We’re all competitive by nature. No matter what the class is or the lack of prizes/payment, as soon as you post scores someone is going to get to brag about “winning” that class. What’s to keep a guy who’s shooting in the 380’s in HC from dropping down to the “beginner” class so that he can go home & brag about his “win”?

I’ve been shooting for several years but this is my first year at the 3-D game. You’ll find my name on the last few pages of results from the national shoots. I’m not embarrassed to have finished so low. I’m not going to shy away from the national shoots just because there are many better shooters out there. All it’s done for me is motivate me to spend more time practicing. But I’ve enjoyed my time at each of the 3 Triple Crown events regardless of the scores posted.

Changing the rules to lower the scores will just lower everyone’s score. No 11 ring, no binocs, etc. are probably going to hurt a guy like me and drop my score a whole lot more than those at the top.

Forcing the shooters who finish better than 400 might make some people happy. But I’d guess that most of those who are forced to move wouldn’t be too fond of it. What was it, about 30% who shot better than 400? Do we really want to upset 100 shooters by making them move up?

Will changing the MBR to become more like a longer yardage HC really help things? Do you think it would cause more guys to move up from HC, or will the current MBR guys decide that if they have to shoot HC equipment, they may as well shoot the shorter HC stakes? I don’t have the answer, but I could see the already dwindling MBR becoming smaller and the already popular HC becoming a little bigger.

And as for the local shoots, I’m guessing the advent of the HC has probably brought a lot more shooters out to the local events. Shouldn’t the influx of new dollars help offset the cost of replacing the midsections on targets a little more frequently? And isn’t the growth of the sport what it’s all about anyway? Isn’t that worth spending a little more on your targets if that’s what it takes?

In the end, I don’t really care what the rule changes are because I will still find a class to shoot in and make as many events each year as possible. Change the scoring where 11 becomes a 10, 10 becomes 8, 8 becomes 5, miss is still 0, but a shot outside the vitals is minus 5. If you truly want a bowhunting class then take away points for wounding shots. Or leave scoring as is and take away the binocs, change other equipment rules, I don’t care.

My point is that it really doesn’t matter to me; I’ll be there and I’ll be shooting either way. But not all 300+ shooters may be as easy going as I am. Be careful of making too many changes that aren’t supported by the majority. It might come back to haunt you. I like the IBO. I enjoy my time spent and the people I’ve met at the national shoots. I’d just hate to see these prospective changes have the wrong effect.

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

Well Butch that is exactly the same thing we face every time the board talks about this sort of thing. I do not want to seem like I am picking on you. We are discussing and that is very good.
How do we do what the shooters SEEM to want and balance that out with it's possible effect on the shoots, the clubs, the industry and bowhuntings future.
Yes these decisions do really affect all of the above. A small example: When we adopted the HC's several sight makers almost went out of business. Their market cut in half over night. They are good business men and adapted but when you lose 40% of your market for your primary product........

I like the scores that shooters are happy about in the HC's. But we must also reflect the impact on the local clubs. Target costs now reflect over 30 cents a shot. Target patterns are represented (on national level) in an area of 3-5 inches. That is over 80% of the impact points.
We will examine the HC ranges very closely at the world. I can and will tell you the world target set is going to be as interesting as we can make it.
This will give us a better handle on exactly how severe this problem is. Also it will tell us if target setting can negate a little of the problem at these distances.
So as I see it now. AS is now being discussed here and now.
HC money HC No money
Now factor in, ladies, fingers, and us more experienced archers.
What to do with MBR when we do the above and 80% of what is left now in MBR move to the money HC?
Ramifications for every single change.
It has been suggested a novice class. What the heck is a novice class. I see names listed from shoots that I have known for years as very good shooters listed as novices. I see MBR and MBO champion level shooters listed in brackets listed as c or b level shooters.
How do we control it better than someone else? Do we start an argument with 50 shooters at registration, at every shoot?
These things happen regularly. You know it. I know it and so should most of the rest of us.
I know three shooters (specifically)that shoot our shoots one year and another organization the next year for this very reason. Shame on them, but it happens.
ken12

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

This may be a little of topic but.. I was looking at the 03 scores from snowshoe and they did not look that high. I am seeing these higher scores posted at the National Triple crown..30 up WOW!..It was a little diffrent for the Southern Triple crown... I think the high scores are do to course setup. Are yall gonna tell me that the world was easy last year? Or was it hard? I have never been so yall tell me..

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

It was a bit soft last year. Also as the year progresses scores go up.
ken12

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

BJ, I will be the first to tell you, the world last year was the absolute most difficult 20 targets that I have yet to shoot. But, let me clarify. The shots were very challenging, across gullys, along side of hills, cady corner of hills, etc. When you go, be ready for anything. At that time last year, I considered myself a pretty good judge of yardage. Actually found my old cards from there yesterday and had a ton of eights and only one x11 and a couple of tens---87 and 88 per ten, or something like that. The shots were ones that made you think, most often more than I could think. I cant shoot it again this year, but I will have my turn at it again next year. I am looking to exact some vengance. I did shoot the trophy round the year before that and did fair for me, and thought those were challenging, last year blew me away. The main thing to remember at Snowshoe is this, you will have a good time if you want to, you will meet some great people even if you dont want to. Relax, enjoy the cool temps and scenary. good luck, butchb

p.s. as Ken stated just above, scores do go up as the year progresses, and the courses get harder. And by the way, thanks for that being the way it is, some of us are slow starters.

RE: HUNTER CLASS IDEAS
 

3 d X RING, you have not offended anyone, at least not me, all I am saying is that speed is probably not the thing.

jeep nut, I like alot of what your saying. but, we (at least myself), do not want changes to move us up the list. I am like you, I am usually half way down the list or farther judging from my ohio score, and set my own personal goals to try and achieve. I also feel the same way you do about changes, this clas has a lot of shooters in it, it is either the second largest or the largest and noone wants to lose that. But, I would like to see it where a newcomer doesnt have to feel like he has lost before he gets started. Do you see where I am coming from? It would allow our sport to grow a little more and bring a few new shooters into the frey. Truth be known, next year I am about 70% positive that I will not shoot the hunter class or its derivative. Maybe I will, but thats not what Im thinking right now.
Plus, one reason we are discussing this here is to get a poll of sorts. Yes, it is a small percentage of IBO'ers, but its all we got. I have said it before, I will play by any rules, just let me know what they are. Here is where we need to hear the bad along with the good that can come out of a change, if it happens. I like the hunter class now, I do have a few problems, but nothing major and about anyone can find something they dont like. I like the way all of the classes are set up, but I am sure those in those classes have something they dont like about them. It cant be all things to all people, but we are trying to find a way it can at least something to newcomers. Thats all I would like to see. Thanks butchb