beating a dead horse
 

i know the binocular rule went into effect several years ago, the whole 8X thing. after having shot for a few years with the rule in effect, has the change had any impact on scores? seems the scores have gotten better, even with the lesser power bino. that being said, will the ibo ever change to the run what you brung theory and allow stronger binos as in the past?

i was questioned at a local shoot this weekend about why the change happened. as memory serves me, (sometimes a little shaky), the whole idea was that people were cheating with the stronger bino and using them as a rangefinding device. with the scores being posted at the national and world championship level shoots, it appears to me there has been no reason to keep the rule in effect. are there any opinions on this, or just beating a dead horse...
the individual who asked is a bowhunter, and uses 12X binos, and was more than willing to attend the upcoming state championship in may, but when told of the bino limitations, decided not to attend because he had no desire to purchase a lesser bino just to shoot in the ibo.....which leads to another post....

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith,
I can see both sides of that issue. Many would argue that some shooters could not afford more powerful binoculars etc. I think though thatI must agree with you that you should be allowed to bring whatever you desire to use. There is always going to be a difference in the equipment everyone shoots. Where I may go down to Wal-Mart and buy a cheap pair of 8x binos the next shooter may be able to get a very expensive pair of Nikons. So where do you draw the line here? I think the 8x rule should be dropped in favor of letting the shooter bring what he/she wishes to use.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith, I can't beleive you would treat an animal that way! Shame on You.;)

The last discussions I've had about that subject were basically, as long as the potential problem exists, so will the rule. Some designs were made with charecteristics which allowed them to be easily used to judge range. They can't very well ignore this method while still enforcing other no rangefinding rules.

My own opinion, (I'm not encouraging them to do this) would be to do away with binoculars altogether. All men created equal and all that. For a bowhunting organization I can see an argument for knowing your target and proper arrow placement. The obvious problem with this is the variety of targets and manufacturers available. That would give the "hometown" boys a distinct advantage if using a target selection that not many of us see. The next best solution is to allow for the best possible binoculars before getting into the trouble area. But.... thats what we have now.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith
I personally don't use bino's to much while hunting .I get to caught up in preparing for my shot at the animal rather than worring about the antler size or if its a doe or buck.I have only harvested 1 deer with a bow ,which happened this past season.He came in at 18 yrds and i could see well enough .As for 3D at 45 yrds being my max yardage it is nice to see what i'm shootin at ,but see no need for stronger power .Some times the bino's don't help anyway.
My home course Waltons Glen has been considered by some one of the tuffest courses around .Rock critters fill the woods from coons,fox ,ground hog ,beaver ,coyote,and the drided turkey.The bino's come in handy with these animals.On the course you may find your self shooting at these animals 30 yrds plus in the MBR class.So without the use of bino's i can't see an 8 ring let alone a 11x ring.But if the change was made i'd still shoot IBO.I'm up for competitiveness.The tuffer the better.This is why i shoot the MBR class .
I've only been shooting 3D for 3 1/2 yrs so not really familure with pass rule changes.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith

To keep it brief, we should consider that shooting 3D is a game and treat it as such. If binos are legal there should be no restrictions limiting power. This power is available to everyone and is used to check arrow placements on spent arrows and ll rings. The exact placement of the arrow can not be seen with the naked eye for many people that is why they may need to use binos. Very few if any tournaments are decided by who had the best binos because you still must shoot the arrow. If using them to get the range is the problem then we should take time to weed out the suspected individuals based on complaints and not restrict everyone for what a few people could be doing.
In view of the reacent history of shooting problems, every organization should be doing everything it can to encourage all archers to come out and participate.
The number of shooters at a given shoot are in decline in many areas, so to become more of a restricting organization based on a few complaints serves no one but the few people complaining. This is water over the dam but their may be no need for a dam if the real silent majority is not heard. Restricting a persons ability to give definition to a target is the only real loss to the majority of the shooters.
Enough beating a dead horse by people who never helped kill the horse.

PS Our league has averaged over 85 shooters for the past 5 weeks out doors and we have a range finder class. The scores for the range finder class are lower for most people and they choose not to shoot this class as it does not help the majority.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

fastfletch, odd you mention the rangefinder class. a few years ago we were having trouble getting help at our club, and as a rusult our targets did not get moved for 3 shoots. on the 4th shoot, we decided to have a marked yardage/rangefinder shoot. again the targets were not moved from the previous shoots, and this marked shoot was to be the forth. participation was about the same as usual,around 75 shooters. the only class that improved was the bowhunter class. all other classes the scores dropped, some be several points.

bigger eyes will not enable you to shoot your bow any better, but may enable you to pick a spot on the target.......

but getting to my original post, for most bowhunters who are not familiar with the ibo and its rules, are we shooting ourselves in the foot with the restriction in that most hunters will not buy a special pair of 3d binoculars
they view it as an expense they do not want. i know we tend to look at things that effect us, but what about the guy we are trying to recruit? all they know is they have to spend a lot more money just to shoot foam animals.....

RE: beating a dead horse
 

IBO International Bowhunters is why i'm a memeber.Thats to fight against the anti hunter.To keep my right to hunt not the competion even thou thats what i like to do.Bow hunters that are not members need to see this.The events are nice and the hunters are what make up this organization.IBO wants hunters to be true to the sport .I still carry my hunting bino's on the course even if they are not IBO legal .Trophy shoots are when i use proper equipment .So really to shoot 3D you can shoot any set up the endividual wants and still be a member.Bino's are the least of a worry to me .To recruit new comers is to make them aware that there rights as a hunter is demineshing.Defence fund range is not a competion but there for us to contribute to the defence of our sport.So any bino's can be used ,they wont kick you off the course cause you bino's are not IBO legal.I keep my eqiupment as least expensive as possible .My bino's are Alpen 8x40 and have an all right field of view For 3D.
I see lots of money being spent on bino's .Ya 600$ pair is better than my 40$ pair but who got the 11x?I hate to see this topic run possible new members off.
;) IBO has more benifits to it than just the target archery part of it.
:)

RE: beating a dead horse
 

true, we need to fight the anti-hunters I agree. But, I do not think that changing the power rule on binoculars is going to fuel the anti hunters fire. The 3D shooter spends on average, double the amount of money on archery equipment than bowhunters do yearly. I myself love to do both. I spend a lot more time and money on my 3D equipment than my hunting equipment by far. I do however use the same binoculars. They are a set of Tasco 20x50 and they do not cost a lot of money. They do however, bring the target(3D or live)up really close. With our management area rules have gone now to a buck having to have 3 poits or better on one side they are very handy to have. Either IBO should remove the limits on binocular power or do away with them completely. (hopefully not). There are several targets out there such as the Mckenzie quartering away deer that has the kill zone high and well to the rear of the animal. If it were not for a good pair of binoculars many shooters would shoot it behind the front shoulder and get a 5. Let us shoot the best equipment we can. It will make for better shooting if you can see what you are aiming for.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I don't feel that this is a real issue to talk about. It's just a restriction to keep people from secretly range finding. I see no need to carry anything over 8 power anyways. Even at 50 yards 8 power is enough. As far as money goes, hoytshooter1977, powerful binos aren't that expensive. Maybe if you want 20 power, but I've seen 12 power Tascos at Wal-Mart for $40. I believe the rule is fine, and I see no reason to change it.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

maybe you guys are missing my point. we, the shooters in the ibo, will and do spend money on 3d equipment. that money varies greatly from shooter to shooter. some have 2 year old used bows costing a couple of hundred dollars, some shoot brand new bows every year, and sometimes more than one. we are the ones who are always going to be there. we have made a commitment to ourselves, and the ibo.

my whole point is not what you are using on the 3d range. my point is the new bowhunter that we are trying to introduce to 3d not wanting to spend money on a 30 dollar pair or 3000 dollar pair of binoculars. the new guys, you know, the ones that show up at the pro shop 2 weeks before season opens that you keep inviting to shoot 3d.

i am not trying to stir something up because i want to change again, i just wanted input on what you feel like we could do for the new guys, instead of inviting them, getting them fired up, and then telling them they cannot use the equipment they have. most in my area will not spend money on binoculars just to shoot 3d. most have binoculars already, but they do not meet the ibo rule restriction of 8X or less.

again, we are not the ones i am talking about. if the rules changed at midnight tonight, most of us would gripe and complain a little, get on the phone to who ever we buy our equipment from and have the new whatevers on the way. i know the ibo has taken great strides to get new shooters, and always will continue to do so, but most of these guys already have bows, otherwise they wouldnt be interested.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith,
I think I understand your point, but don't really agree that it should be addressed at the national level. The people you are refering to must first get hooked into the game at the local level. I don't think there are many clubs who get to stringent on the binocular issue. IBO sanctioned shoots is a different thing altogether. I have never had a problem telling someone that when they step up to state, national, or world level events, that the restrictions get tighter. Most that I have helped encourage along actually expect that. Those same people will sometimes need to modify other parts of their equipment as well to conform to a standardised set of rules, but then standardised competition rules is part of why this whole thing began anyhow.

My suggestion to you and anyone else interested is to start by inviting them to shoot with you locally. Have fun as friends first and let them know along the way how you enjoy the higher levels of competition. Help them sort out the rules as they appy to them. Encourage them to challenge themselves further than they have and to come teach us all a thing or two about shooting. At that point, if you've done all of that well, the binoculars will really be a small issue.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

bluejacket, exactly my point. we have hooked people on 3d. they love shooting and are at every CLUB shoot every time a range is set. we just cannot convince them that they need to buy additional equipment to shoot in the ibo. most understand the classes and what goes along with that, they just dont want to buy binoculars...you see it as addressing things on a national level, and i see it as 1200 participants at an ibo event, millions of bowhunters....the 1200 participants are always going to be there, what we need to do is access the millions.......

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Hi guy's:)
When i first started 3D i just wanted to see what it was about.At first seeing people with all the hip quiver ,new bows ,bino's ,collard shirts with sponsers all up and down ,made me feel like i was out of place as a deer hunter.But with me being a competitive type i was dragged in real quick.At our course where i shoot we also have a pro shop on the grounds.I was a bit intimedated at first but in time all those shooters gave me advise on both hunting and my 3D set up.Now i'm a top shooter at my home course and the serounding area.I see the same look in new peoples eye.Like there out of place.And the money for some just isn't there.We incourage all shooters to keep coming back and most do .I see some jump right into the sport of 3D and do it for the deer hunting season coming up and the competitive aspect of it.The new people just need some tender loveing care,Not dragged in by the hair.

They could put bino power for each individaul class lower power for HC higher for Open classes .I personaly would like other equipment but can't afford it .You won't see me spend high dollar on bino's.I spend to much just traveling to all the nationals and world.which kills my bank roll.But its a great time and is worth it.


As for using bino's for rangeing ,that doesn't bother me .Its not like someone isn't counting your steps to the target if they are up next to shoot that target when you go to pull .I don't try to use bino's in this fashion i consintrate more on other things and don't believe ranging with bino's are that accurate .If was to focus on a 20 yard then 40 it mite work.And i don't like people that count steps. so i Zig and Zag if they are watching me.Studer step.


I'll keep shooting no matter what rule changes are made[8D]

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Hey Keith!! How Have you been? I must say I agree with all of the shooters that replied. Its all about what you prefer,what you hunt,and how you play 3-D. Here in PA. we have antler restictions. I invested in a pair of top qaulity binos for deer hunting, and they are sweet for 3-D also. We still have people saying ''binos dont belong on 3-D ranges,I dont carry them hunting!!'' well I've got a news flash,ANTLER POINTS ARE TOUGH TO COUNT !!! Fancy, or cheap, your scores and deer hunting will benefit from a pair of field glasses. As for magnification we prefer a 7 or 8 power. I believe large power binos are tougher to hold steady. I personally use a 7 X 30 for deer hunting....works very well.

From your PA roomies at Snowshoe Mountain! WWWAAAAHHHOOO!

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I totally agree with Keith's thinking. The only IBO shoots I have shot are the Southern Triple Crown events (Have loved shooting them by the way). Those are smack dab in the middle of ASA country. There are a lot of ASA shooters I know who will not shoot becuase they do not want to buy another pair of binoculars.

I went out and bought a pair of sub $40 Walmart jobers. They are ok at best BUT the shooter who is on staff with a bino company etc definitely has the advantage. If you don't beleve it put the gobbling turkey at 36 plus yards and try to find the 10 ring with a pair of cheap binos.

I guess one compromise might be to drop the bino restriciton in the hunting classes or whatever IBO calls the novice class.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I understand the concept of "run what you brung", but unfortunately think it must be limited and controlled. Example: if a traditional shooter brought his bow straight from hunting in the woods to compete your argument says he should be allowed to compete. But what if he had hash marks up the bow which he could use in the woods to aid him at different ranges? Should he be allowed the implimentation of a system not approved of in the rules of competition? I don't really see it as any different as the bino's. I simply can not see how you can allow the possibility of 1 range finding devise and not others. The ability to see the target better is not problematic for anyone, but the ability to rangefind is. I don't see how you get past that.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

the scores are higher than ever in the ibo. perfict practice makes perfict.:D:D:D good luck gents!

RE: beating a dead horse
 

run what you brung is in reference to the binoculars, not a traditional shooter with notches on the bow......there is no way to eleminate cheating, you just cannot do it. the ibo says someone is cheating with the bino and decides to restrict them. fine, but why not get rid of the cheaters? they cannot be good for our sport. as for the guy with the coonskin hat and hash marks in his shorts, or rather on his bow, let him shoot. in the fingers aided class.

i am not trying to stir up a hornets nest here, and obviously you cannot see my point bluejacket. that is fine, opinions vary, but i will say and always will that the binoculars are not the reason scores are what they are in the ibo. binoculars may be a reason some people do not participate in the ibo. not wanting to change the world here, just trying to make my little part of it a little better for everyone.

as for the dead horse, there will be a brief ceremony for the dead horse at the 1st leg of the southern triple crown. how about saturday afternoon about 5pm at the practice range. drinks will not be provided, but make your own choice.....

RE: beating a dead horse
 

hey pa buck hunter, shouldnt that read Paul, buck hunter? even us boys from ky can spell our names.......lol looking forward to seeing you in indiana. i dont want to hear all that stuff about money, just buckle down a little and save. a young unmarried guy like you should have millions bankrolled by now[8D] if we dont catch you at bedford, you know the deal at erie, just bring your beer goggles.....

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith,
I know you are not just simply stirring the pot, and I do respect your opinion. Respectfull debate is always welcome and often the source for solutions to complex dilemas. I actually think that I do understand your point, and can for the most part, agree with you. I simply can not see a bridge between the 2 concerns at this point and just ignoring one or the other isn't right either. I hope to get the chance to meet you one of these days and talk in person. I know that you are looking to improve the sport and that is the kind of input we need.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Hey Meador, PA Hunter is Steve & Wendy, not Paul, got your PA friends all mixed up. [8D] Take care looking forward to seeing you and Lee for Alabama.

Clue - What are you mixing me to drink in Alabama?

nmb

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Hey Meader, you got the wrong Pa. boy!!! this is Steve & Wendy!! And yes we will bring our beer googles.. Anyway, it was mentioned about the 35 yd turkey. No dout about good glasses here! I have no trouble seeing rings with 7x30 swarovski's. I understand not everybody wants good binos, but they are also priceless for deer hunting. The larger powers really dont matter much to me. I really don't feel they have an edge on the 3-D course. I have shot with guys with 10x50's that still ask to look through a pair of 7x!! The best part of smaller top quality binos is they just don't get in the way. I had a pair of 7x50 PENTAX , they were just to cumbersome to drag around the woods!! Anyway, take my advice archers, consult your wife before buying good glass 7x or 10x!! It was a very quite week at my house, A dead horse would have been good company!!!!

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Steve's right, it was a quiet week, she went on strike didn't she? But you got the bino's.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

To all concerned about beating a dead horse!, I believe the IBO's position on binoculars above 8 power is the correct one, studies have been done by independant sources showing that you can use higher power bino's for yardage judging. The feeling I get from the IBO, by the way that they lay out there ranges so that you can't see the previous target so that you have to JUDGE yardage and make a good shot! This is a dead horse!!

RE: beating a dead horse
 

If you can judge yardage with binos, NASA has an opening for you. I have no idea how a fellow could judge yardage with binos. I haven't tried it.....yet. Like I said in a previous message, a good 7 X bino is all or better than a 10 X, so why drag around a heavy bino? A smaller power is good all around and it abides by the rules. Dont' shoot yourself in the foot, see you at Full Draw.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

nmb, for you it will be oj, and a premium cribbean rum, with just a hint of cocanut. poured gently over ice, and shaken tenderly. after served, it will be slammed like all the other drinks i make you;) for steve and wendy, it will be bud light, chilled for 2 days prior to serving, so cold it will hurt your teeth. after wendys starter, it will be the usual fruity citrus coolers. and you know the deal with nysr, vodka and oj.

im with you steve on the rangefinding abilities of binoculars. there is no doubt it can be done, but it can also be done with the cheap glass as well. as for your swarovski glass, that is top of the line, but a little out of reach for most ky boys. it cuts into the fun budget. i will still use my 8 year old bruntons and keep shooting turkeys in the head:) thats a killing shot isnt it?

bluejacket, i dont concede, i just know when a stalemate is present. my belief is that maybe there is a portion of shooters we could gain by the change. i just feel like for some it may be a deterrent. just my thoughts, and what i have seen around here.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

As with all topics there are valid viewpoints on both sides of this issue. I agree with a lot of things everyone has said thus far and just like has been said there is no use beating a dead horse any more, it just doesn't do any good. With an 8x rule, those that can afford higher quality glasses and are dedicated to shooting 3D will opt for them. One thing we do each year in our last 3D tournament of the year is to have a bowhunter only tournament. The targets are setup at a 35 yard max and 12" stabilizer and fixed pins. The only addiditional rule is that there are no binoculars allowed for this shoot. It makes for some very interesting shooting and a lot of fun. I would not want to do it in all of the shoots I take part in however. Interesting viewpoints from everyone, enjoyed reading them.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I would just like to find a place locally where I can even get started in 3d shoots. So far I've only found one and was suprised to find that one was a traditional shoot and not compound. All the other equipment can come later when I know I can shoot period. Guess I should also mention that from what I have been told, most targets are a max of 45 yards, why use a spy glass to see it when it's that close?

RE: beating a dead horse
 

In response to warchief's post. The IBO.net sight here has some local state shoots listed under "world qualifiers" link and also you can go to 3Dshoots.com for additional lisings. Hope this helps. If you give it a chance, you will love shooting 3D shoots. You will not only have a good time shooting but you will meet some of the nicest people at the same time. I can not count the number of times over the years people have stopped out from what they were doing to offer help and advice to improve my shooting. I have won several local shoots and placed well at the last state shoot. I could not have done it without so many great people helping me along the way. I have just begun to get ready to shoot in the IBO and have already gotten several nice posts from people welcoming me. Some of the classes are 45 yards max, some farther and some closer. Trust me you need good binoculars to see the 11 ring on some of the targets. Keep shooting them and you will find out for yourself.Good luck and welcome to the world of 3D shooting.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I also am hooked on this great sport and it is amazing the following we are getting on the local level. I would like to agree with Keith ( or KEEF as he sometimes prefers):)that there would be an increase in the turnout on the national level. There is a solution to the range finding ability, at least in the upper echelon classes. Make people set their sight before glassing targets. Now I understand that this will not work for all classes, i.e. the ones with fixed pins. But as far as that goes why not get rid of fixed pins bacause someone who has pins set right can use pin gap to range as well. Now before anyone gets mad at me because I said get rid of fixed pins I WAS JOKING, it was just to prove a point. There are several ways to range other then toeing a stake and counting 10, 20, 30... but that is a mute point and I know that there are only a small percentage of people that would want this change. Heck 5 or 10 might get mad and leave but think of the hundreds that may come and thats what we are after, more people. We need to grow as a community and accept all new people with open arms.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

hey jeremy, hows it going. things are well here. i do have a little vision, and just trying to lend a hand. some folks just cant get past what affects them directly, and not what effect it has overall. we used to set the site and then glass a few years ago. that wasnt bad. i will play by whatever rules we need too. this argument can go on forever. if the restriction were to be done away with, then the people with the simmons bino would have a disadvantage to the one shooting a lieca, and the guy shooting a nikon will be called a cheater because his are brighter than the bushnell......etc etc etc.....

anyway on to fun things.....you shooting the southern triple crown? if not i hope to see you in bedford....ill probably be shooting with my new york connection buddy...and a few southern boys....look us up, love to shoot with ya again.......

RE: beating a dead horse
 

hey warchief! Best of luck to your new hobbie!!! That stinks you can't find local shoots. We are really lucky in our area, when the weather is nice, we have no less than three shoots any given weekend. We ( my buddies & I ) just took over a local club that got ''run into the ground.'' We are going to try to build a good 3-D club for EVERYBODY!! Thanks to everyone who have run clubs in the past, now I know what is involved. It takes a good amount of work. As for binos on our range, more power to ya! We have folks complain about people using glasses, but we host several pro shooters and many IBO shooters who are getting ready to shoot the bigger shoots, they are just practicing. We do ask that shooters don't glass all day at the stake! Meader, I may even let you wear my goggles! Dont worry NYSR we'll share. Shoot well archers, the snow will soon be gone.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

If there are people cheating then the correct thing to do is confront these people at the time that they are being acused.
Making rules for unproven situations does nothing but make rules which are unneccesary and only serve to provoke the people who do not cheat. It would be interesting to have the experts who make these claims about judging yardage with binos to demonstrate this method at some of the national shoots to justify their reasoning. The rule is here and will stay, so is the dead horse.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

fastfletch, i know there are binos out there that have the capabilities, and shooters who know how to use that capability, but PROVING that a shooter is cheating is entirely something different. i agree, there are a few suspected of cheating, so lets change the rules for everyone. for the ones who use the knuckles, your next. schedule a doctors appiontment to have your knuckles cut off.....and the ones who gap with fixed pins, well, you will have to change classes....and the guy who cheats with the neat paint scheme on his bow, your lucky, you just have to repaint you bow........

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Keith
One of the things that has always made this a great sport is that we all have a common goal and that is to promote the sport and to have fun. If we think that we are being outdone by our competitors using equipment that we don't have then give us a chance to obtain the same equipment. If your bow shoots better than mine and they are the same bows tuned the same way the next thing that will happen is we will start outlawing bows, etc, until there is only one thing left to do away with, the shooter.
Many times these issues get blown way out of purportions and a few people become the vocal majority not the unspoken majority. There are other issues that allow cheating within the organization which are not being addressed and will never be because of the persons that are involved. Rule are rules and should be made for the benefit of majority not a few that think that they can use the rules to their advantage with out developing the skill that is necessary to compete.
I've beat this dead horse to much already and I don't think that I can feel a pulse yet so I am making this my last thread on this subject. Good luck and good shooting.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

As a newcomer to the IBO, let me say this. I have been shooting 3D tournaments all over Alabama and Florida in local clubs and organizations and enjoy them very much. I am moving up to the big leagues and hoping to do well in the IBO. The first thing that I did was look at the rules on the webpage and make sure that I could abide by them. As I said earlier, I use a pair of 20x50 binoculars and like them a lot. I have already bought me a pair of 8x42 bino's for the upcoming 1st leg of the Southern Triple Crown. They were not very expensive as an earlier post stated, they are around $40 at Wal-Mart. If people want to compete at the IBO level then they will make the sacrifices and get the proper equipment to shoot and be competitive. Like the dead horse mentioned frequently thus far, there is not benefit to keep beatin him. Instead as Keith stated we should all try to recruit one new member for 2004. If we all bring in just one new member we could double our membership. I for one can't wait until the end of the month to make the trip up to Wetumpka and meet some of the truly nice people I have talked to so far.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Welcome, and may you find all the good times that you are looking for. The forum is the forum and is here to inform and speak our opinions. Good Luck

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Not entirely accurate. Straight from Ken Watkins.......there was ONE manufacturer of binos that had a ten power pair with an adjustment wheel that allowed it to be used as a crude rangefinder. Not all 10x, just one brand.

RE: beating a dead horse
 

I would vote for doing away with all restrictions on bino power. Better binos do make a difference and people don't want to buy another pair so they can shoot all major 3-d org. anymore than the IBO guys will turn down their speed to shoot an ASA event. We should all work together to promote archery and growth in this area or it will contine to die off. Maybe attendence at the major shoots is still strong but alot of local clubs are closing down due to low numbers of shooters and rising target prices. I saw a post on another site that stated that a very high priced pair off binos was tested and was in focus for about 4 yards difference out past 40 yards. I don't know if this is true or not as my binos only cost a fraction of what this brand does. I have 7x35, 7-15 zooms, 8x40, and 10x42 binos and I can tell you the 10x42 is by far the best. They are not super high priced but not Wal-Mart stuff either. I have friends that do not shoot the IBO who use 16 and 20 power stuff. If they check your bow weight and arrow weight why not just look at the binos to see if there are any marks on them??

RE: beating a dead horse
 

Big Country

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the independent study or at least the name of the people that did this research. This has been stated more once but I have never been able to get the names or the information.

I'm sorry, I believe I should have directed that question at nys rep. Has anyone ever seen published results ofl this action. They now make Binos with built in range finders.