beating a dead horse
02-02-2004, 10:17 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Grindstone Branch KY USA
Posts: 318
beating a dead horse
i know the binocular rule went into effect several years ago, the whole 8X thing. after having shot for a few years with the rule in effect, has the change had any impact on scores? seems the scores have gotten better, even with the lesser power bino. that being said, will the ibo ever change to the run what you brung theory and allow stronger binos as in the past?
i was questioned at a local shoot this weekend about why the change happened. as memory serves me, (sometimes a little shaky), the whole idea was that people were cheating with the stronger bino and using them as a rangefinding device. with the scores being posted at the national and world championship level shoots, it appears to me there has been no reason to keep the rule in effect. are there any opinions on this, or just beating a dead horse...
the individual who asked is a bowhunter, and uses 12X binos, and was more than willing to attend the upcoming state championship in may, but when told of the bino limitations, decided not to attend because he had no desire to purchase a lesser bino just to shoot in the ibo.....which leads to another post....
i was questioned at a local shoot this weekend about why the change happened. as memory serves me, (sometimes a little shaky), the whole idea was that people were cheating with the stronger bino and using them as a rangefinding device. with the scores being posted at the national and world championship level shoots, it appears to me there has been no reason to keep the rule in effect. are there any opinions on this, or just beating a dead horse...
the individual who asked is a bowhunter, and uses 12X binos, and was more than willing to attend the upcoming state championship in may, but when told of the bino limitations, decided not to attend because he had no desire to purchase a lesser bino just to shoot in the ibo.....which leads to another post....
02-02-2004, 06:33 PM
#2
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 176
RE: beating a dead horse
Keith,
I can see both sides of that issue. Many would argue that some shooters could not afford more powerful binoculars etc. I think though thatI must agree with you that you should be allowed to bring whatever you desire to use. There is always going to be a difference in the equipment everyone shoots. Where I may go down to Wal-Mart and buy a cheap pair of 8x binos the next shooter may be able to get a very expensive pair of Nikons. So where do you draw the line here? I think the 8x rule should be dropped in favor of letting the shooter bring what he/she wishes to use.
I can see both sides of that issue. Many would argue that some shooters could not afford more powerful binoculars etc. I think though thatI must agree with you that you should be allowed to bring whatever you desire to use. There is always going to be a difference in the equipment everyone shoots. Where I may go down to Wal-Mart and buy a cheap pair of 8x binos the next shooter may be able to get a very expensive pair of Nikons. So where do you draw the line here? I think the 8x rule should be dropped in favor of letting the shooter bring what he/she wishes to use.
02-03-2004, 04:59 AM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Avon Lake Ohio USA
Posts: 232
RE: beating a dead horse
Keith, I can't beleive you would treat an animal that way! Shame on You.
The last discussions I've had about that subject were basically, as long as the potential problem exists, so will the rule. Some designs were made with charecteristics which allowed them to be easily used to judge range. They can't very well ignore this method while still enforcing other no rangefinding rules.
My own opinion, (I'm not encouraging them to do this) would be to do away with binoculars altogether. All men created equal and all that. For a bowhunting organization I can see an argument for knowing your target and proper arrow placement. The obvious problem with this is the variety of targets and manufacturers available. That would give the "hometown" boys a distinct advantage if using a target selection that not many of us see. The next best solution is to allow for the best possible binoculars before getting into the trouble area. But.... thats what we have now.
The last discussions I've had about that subject were basically, as long as the potential problem exists, so will the rule. Some designs were made with charecteristics which allowed them to be easily used to judge range. They can't very well ignore this method while still enforcing other no rangefinding rules.
My own opinion, (I'm not encouraging them to do this) would be to do away with binoculars altogether. All men created equal and all that. For a bowhunting organization I can see an argument for knowing your target and proper arrow placement. The obvious problem with this is the variety of targets and manufacturers available. That would give the "hometown" boys a distinct advantage if using a target selection that not many of us see. The next best solution is to allow for the best possible binoculars before getting into the trouble area. But.... thats what we have now.
02-03-2004, 08:05 AM
#4
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 74
RE: beating a dead horse
Keith
I personally don't use bino's to much while hunting .I get to caught up in preparing for my shot at the animal rather than worring about the antler size or if its a doe or buck.I have only harvested 1 deer with a bow ,which happened this past season.He came in at 18 yrds and i could see well enough .As for 3D at 45 yrds being my max yardage it is nice to see what i'm shootin at ,but see no need for stronger power .Some times the bino's don't help anyway.
My home course Waltons Glen has been considered by some one of the tuffest courses around .Rock critters fill the woods from coons,fox ,ground hog ,beaver ,coyote,and the drided turkey.The bino's come in handy with these animals.On the course you may find your self shooting at these animals 30 yrds plus in the MBR class.So without the use of bino's i can't see an 8 ring let alone a 11x ring.But if the change was made i'd still shoot IBO.I'm up for competitiveness.The tuffer the better.This is why i shoot the MBR class .
I've only been shooting 3D for 3 1/2 yrs so not really familure with pass rule changes.
I personally don't use bino's to much while hunting .I get to caught up in preparing for my shot at the animal rather than worring about the antler size or if its a doe or buck.I have only harvested 1 deer with a bow ,which happened this past season.He came in at 18 yrds and i could see well enough .As for 3D at 45 yrds being my max yardage it is nice to see what i'm shootin at ,but see no need for stronger power .Some times the bino's don't help anyway.
My home course Waltons Glen has been considered by some one of the tuffest courses around .Rock critters fill the woods from coons,fox ,ground hog ,beaver ,coyote,and the drided turkey.The bino's come in handy with these animals.On the course you may find your self shooting at these animals 30 yrds plus in the MBR class.So without the use of bino's i can't see an 8 ring let alone a 11x ring.But if the change was made i'd still shoot IBO.I'm up for competitiveness.The tuffer the better.This is why i shoot the MBR class .
I've only been shooting 3D for 3 1/2 yrs so not really familure with pass rule changes.
02-03-2004, 05:11 PM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: TROUPSBURG, N.Y
Posts: 371
RE: beating a dead horse
Keith
To keep it brief, we should consider that shooting 3D is a game and treat it as such. If binos are legal there should be no restrictions limiting power. This power is available to everyone and is used to check arrow placements on spent arrows and ll rings. The exact placement of the arrow can not be seen with the naked eye for many people that is why they may need to use binos. Very few if any tournaments are decided by who had the best binos because you still must shoot the arrow. If using them to get the range is the problem then we should take time to weed out the suspected individuals based on complaints and not restrict everyone for what a few people could be doing.
In view of the reacent history of shooting problems, every organization should be doing everything it can to encourage all archers to come out and participate.
The number of shooters at a given shoot are in decline in many areas, so to become more of a restricting organization based on a few complaints serves no one but the few people complaining. This is water over the dam but their may be no need for a dam if the real silent majority is not heard. Restricting a persons ability to give definition to a target is the only real loss to the majority of the shooters.
Enough beating a dead horse by people who never helped kill the horse.
PS Our league has averaged over 85 shooters for the past 5 weeks out doors and we have a range finder class. The scores for the range finder class are lower for most people and they choose not to shoot this class as it does not help the majority.
To keep it brief, we should consider that shooting 3D is a game and treat it as such. If binos are legal there should be no restrictions limiting power. This power is available to everyone and is used to check arrow placements on spent arrows and ll rings. The exact placement of the arrow can not be seen with the naked eye for many people that is why they may need to use binos. Very few if any tournaments are decided by who had the best binos because you still must shoot the arrow. If using them to get the range is the problem then we should take time to weed out the suspected individuals based on complaints and not restrict everyone for what a few people could be doing.
In view of the reacent history of shooting problems, every organization should be doing everything it can to encourage all archers to come out and participate.
The number of shooters at a given shoot are in decline in many areas, so to become more of a restricting organization based on a few complaints serves no one but the few people complaining. This is water over the dam but their may be no need for a dam if the real silent majority is not heard. Restricting a persons ability to give definition to a target is the only real loss to the majority of the shooters.
Enough beating a dead horse by people who never helped kill the horse.
PS Our league has averaged over 85 shooters for the past 5 weeks out doors and we have a range finder class. The scores for the range finder class are lower for most people and they choose not to shoot this class as it does not help the majority.
02-03-2004, 05:37 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Grindstone Branch KY USA
Posts: 318
RE: beating a dead horse
fastfletch, odd you mention the rangefinder class. a few years ago we were having trouble getting help at our club, and as a rusult our targets did not get moved for 3 shoots. on the 4th shoot, we decided to have a marked yardage/rangefinder shoot. again the targets were not moved from the previous shoots, and this marked shoot was to be the forth. participation was about the same as usual,around 75 shooters. the only class that improved was the bowhunter class. all other classes the scores dropped, some be several points.
bigger eyes will not enable you to shoot your bow any better, but may enable you to pick a spot on the target.......
but getting to my original post, for most bowhunters who are not familiar with the ibo and its rules, are we shooting ourselves in the foot with the restriction in that most hunters will not buy a special pair of 3d binoculars
they view it as an expense they do not want. i know we tend to look at things that effect us, but what about the guy we are trying to recruit? all they know is they have to spend a lot more money just to shoot foam animals.....
bigger eyes will not enable you to shoot your bow any better, but may enable you to pick a spot on the target.......
but getting to my original post, for most bowhunters who are not familiar with the ibo and its rules, are we shooting ourselves in the foot with the restriction in that most hunters will not buy a special pair of 3d binoculars
they view it as an expense they do not want. i know we tend to look at things that effect us, but what about the guy we are trying to recruit? all they know is they have to spend a lot more money just to shoot foam animals.....
02-04-2004, 08:34 AM
#7
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 74
RE: beating a dead horse
IBO International Bowhunters is why i'm a memeber.Thats to fight against the anti hunter.To keep my right to hunt not the competion even thou thats what i like to do.Bow hunters that are not members need to see this.The events are nice and the hunters are what make up this organization.IBO wants hunters to be true to the sport .I still carry my hunting bino's on the course even if they are not IBO legal .Trophy shoots are when i use proper equipment .So really to shoot 3D you can shoot any set up the endividual wants and still be a member.Bino's are the least of a worry to me .To recruit new comers is to make them aware that there rights as a hunter is demineshing.Defence fund range is not a competion but there for us to contribute to the defence of our sport.So any bino's can be used ,they wont kick you off the course cause you bino's are not IBO legal.I keep my eqiupment as least expensive as possible .My bino's are Alpen 8x40 and have an all right field of view For 3D.
I see lots of money being spent on bino's .Ya 600$ pair is better than my 40$ pair but who got the 11x?I hate to see this topic run possible new members off.
IBO has more benifits to it than just the target archery part of it.
I see lots of money being spent on bino's .Ya 600$ pair is better than my 40$ pair but who got the 11x?I hate to see this topic run possible new members off.
IBO has more benifits to it than just the target archery part of it.
02-04-2004, 07:00 PM
#8
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 176
RE: beating a dead horse
true, we need to fight the anti-hunters I agree. But, I do not think that changing the power rule on binoculars is going to fuel the anti hunters fire. The 3D shooter spends on average, double the amount of money on archery equipment than bowhunters do yearly. I myself love to do both. I spend a lot more time and money on my 3D equipment than my hunting equipment by far. I do however use the same binoculars. They are a set of Tasco 20x50 and they do not cost a lot of money. They do however, bring the target(3D or live)up really close. With our management area rules have gone now to a buck having to have 3 poits or better on one side they are very handy to have. Either IBO should remove the limits on binocular power or do away with them completely. (hopefully not). There are several targets out there such as the Mckenzie quartering away deer that has the kill zone high and well to the rear of the animal. If it were not for a good pair of binoculars many shooters would shoot it behind the front shoulder and get a 5. Let us shoot the best equipment we can. It will make for better shooting if you can see what you are aiming for.
02-04-2004, 08:13 PM
#9
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 12
RE: beating a dead horse
I don't feel that this is a real issue to talk about. It's just a restriction to keep people from secretly range finding. I see no need to carry anything over 8 power anyways. Even at 50 yards 8 power is enough. As far as money goes, hoytshooter1977, powerful binos aren't that expensive. Maybe if you want 20 power, but I've seen 12 power Tascos at Wal-Mart for $40. I believe the rule is fine, and I see no reason to change it.
02-04-2004, 08:31 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Grindstone Branch KY USA
Posts: 318
RE: beating a dead horse
maybe you guys are missing my point. we, the shooters in the ibo, will and do spend money on 3d equipment. that money varies greatly from shooter to shooter. some have 2 year old used bows costing a couple of hundred dollars, some shoot brand new bows every year, and sometimes more than one. we are the ones who are always going to be there. we have made a commitment to ourselves, and the ibo.
my whole point is not what you are using on the 3d range. my point is the new bowhunter that we are trying to introduce to 3d not wanting to spend money on a 30 dollar pair or 3000 dollar pair of binoculars. the new guys, you know, the ones that show up at the pro shop 2 weeks before season opens that you keep inviting to shoot 3d.
i am not trying to stir something up because i want to change again, i just wanted input on what you feel like we could do for the new guys, instead of inviting them, getting them fired up, and then telling them they cannot use the equipment they have. most in my area will not spend money on binoculars just to shoot 3d. most have binoculars already, but they do not meet the ibo rule restriction of 8X or less.
again, we are not the ones i am talking about. if the rules changed at midnight tonight, most of us would gripe and complain a little, get on the phone to who ever we buy our equipment from and have the new whatevers on the way. i know the ibo has taken great strides to get new shooters, and always will continue to do so, but most of these guys already have bows, otherwise they wouldnt be interested.
my whole point is not what you are using on the 3d range. my point is the new bowhunter that we are trying to introduce to 3d not wanting to spend money on a 30 dollar pair or 3000 dollar pair of binoculars. the new guys, you know, the ones that show up at the pro shop 2 weeks before season opens that you keep inviting to shoot 3d.
i am not trying to stir something up because i want to change again, i just wanted input on what you feel like we could do for the new guys, instead of inviting them, getting them fired up, and then telling them they cannot use the equipment they have. most in my area will not spend money on binoculars just to shoot 3d. most have binoculars already, but they do not meet the ibo rule restriction of 8X or less.
again, we are not the ones i am talking about. if the rules changed at midnight tonight, most of us would gripe and complain a little, get on the phone to who ever we buy our equipment from and have the new whatevers on the way. i know the ibo has taken great strides to get new shooters, and always will continue to do so, but most of these guys already have bows, otherwise they wouldnt be interested.