Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken Watkins is still trying to undo the I. B. O. (International Bowhunting Organization) not the International Target Organization. THe class is popular because it is a bowhunting class and equipment. Ken and the board take heed. If you want to get the better shooters out, give them a place to go. MBR is just a MBO pin class. We do not want long stabilizers, Target arrows, lens Ect. We are BOWHUNTERS. Change HC to 30 yard max and make MBR 40 yard max and the same equipment rules as the Hunter class. Put the money in MBR and watch the shooters jump up. The ASA had the right idea. Novice bowhunter. Win and move up. But give us a Bowhunter Class to go to.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Couple of points, you can NOT use a lens in MBR, ya you can you a longer stablizer, but from what I saw last weekend, MOST, myself included do not use long ones.

As for the distances, sorry but someone who can shoot the top scores from 35 max can fairly easily handle the 45 yard max. It isn' t that big a change.

There is also money on the line in MBR already.

I get touchy when people try to change MBR in closer, they already moved it in from 50 to 45, stop changing it!! Its fine where it was, if you want it changed I would move it back to 50!

--Bob

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I agree MBR is fine and need to be left alone.

HC = bow shooting 260fps max, 35 yards Max, 4 " vanes , 12" stabilizer max, 4 pins, screw in tips. NO MONEY trophy and Prizes only.

HCO = 5 gr per or 280fps, 40 yard max, 4 " vanes, 12" stabilizer,screw in tips. MONEY CLASS.

Frankly I think that it is absurd that full grown men want to shoots 35 yards max with a 320fps bow, what you need one pin? I think that we need to get the speed bows and the money grubbers out of HC and let it be a hunting class.

I shoot MBR and dont ever see myself returning to HC but it is the same story senes when I shot in it.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Outside looking in, I agree that the hunter classes should be for trophies only. No cash prizes or gift certificates (same as cash, in my opinion). That would leave the class to those who really are in it for the hunting and bragging rights. The money shooters would move on to other classes. Then the hunter classes could shorten everything up to bull elk and bison at 20 yards and everyone would most likely still be happy campers.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

What on earth are you talking about? I think I am one of the proonents of the hc.
Maybe you heard a rumor, but I did not start it.
ken12

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken, I didn' t attend Snowshoe this year because of several reasons but if I had and I would have been in the HC , why would IBO allow the stakes to be set over the 35 yd max and why avg out at 33 yards? Again this is suppose to be a hunter class with yardages up to 35 yd?????
I don' t understand why any grown man would complain about someone else enjoying shooting a hunter setup and shooting in a class they feel comfortable with? If I wanted to be a target shooter, not a hunter, I would shoot the open class but it' s my choice and my money that keeps me shooting.:D

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

3-D is target shooting,NOT hunting.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I shoot the hunter class because that is what I am a HUNTER and if we keep in mind what the I.B.O. was intended to do in the first place and just what the name implies INTERNATIONAL BOWHUNTING ORGANIZATION. This class is perfect for the BOWHUNTER to keep shooting all year round and be apart of a group that will defend his rights to keep hunting. The rules that govern this class is fine, I shoot with the same equipment in the woods that I do on the course yes, a very quite 290 fps 4 pin 4 inch vane with of course screw in points. I dont change equipment all year round. I have gone that route before and I hated every second of it. I have more confidence in my bow knowing that I will hit were I aim and I dont draw on anything over 35 yards anyway.
As far as the worlds go I would have liked to have shot the second 20 targets but I also know what the HC courses were like with out rain,falling down on the first day and almost doing harm to myself and my equipment. I agree with shutting down sat but I would have liked to have seen the shoot off cancelled and the shoot to con' t on sun and allow the champion to be decided with 40 targets not 20.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

eb, it might be target shooting but it should be considered as conditioning for the fall archery season too. You ever hear practice makes perfect? IBO did a great thing by starting the HC , if they start making more changes in the rules for HC then it will be time to think about moving our club over to ASA.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Big O, You need to go to the thread, Ken' s HC remarks in Bowhunting World on this forum and you will see that you are a little late and that they cannot move hunter class to 30 yards, I have already been corrected on that. You will get all the opinions you want on this out of that thread. Bob K

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

To Ken: If more changes is a rumor I am sorry, but rumors are out there. The facts are you did a good thing for the IBO creating the hunter class. It is now, if the triple crown results are accurate, the largest class in the I.B.O. I know you wanted it to be a entry level class, but it is a class with it' s own equipment rules and limits. I do not think you will ever get good shooters out of any class if they do not wish to go. Most of us will never win, but thanks to this class we are enjoying the Bowhunter experience. The fact that it has grown this way speaks for it' s self. This is what the people want. I know MBO shooters go to MBR if they think they have a better chance of winning. It is not just a HC thing. What gets me is the move up, move down crap. Who decides who the better shooters are? If you guys think it is so easy, come on in. The limitations in equipment, more than make up for the yardage. HC is just another class and should not be looked down on. Most do not care about the money, we are having fun.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Thanks BigO.
Amen. No one can deny the class is a huge success. We /I see many shooters at the local level playing in the HC' s. I look at their equipment and see that it(the class) is getting our desired effect of providing a class for entry level shooters and a place for a more relaxed competition. More of the first and less of the second as it has turned out. But a lot of hunting set ups with broad heads removed.
I would also add that the HC ranges were checked no less than twice for distance and targets were not longer than the max. I personally checked the Championship HC ranges. ej can probably comment on which of us checked the trophy ranges, but they were checked.
ken12

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

:D:D:D Good morning BOW PRO!! Thanks for getting the HC going, it is growing fast BECAUSE OF MANY GOOD REASONS. It has gotten big enough to now consider(please) a Youth hunter and a Senior hunter division. Open the door to growth!! Thanks

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I would like to second what pselee said, a youth hunter and senior hunter class would be a great idea.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I too would love to a youth hunters class. Let' s separate the scopes and the pins.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken, the trophy range for HC was where I had heard comments from, like I said this was from shooters who were there and I wasn' t.
If the HC is divided into youth and adult that will just help provide the kids with better chances to grow in the sport.:)

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Im a hunter that shoots a movable scope with v-bars and a 24" stab. 2" vanes not 4" at a speed of 310fps. Ive shot several nice bucks with this setup. The deer never said that im not shooting a HUNTERS setup! Two years ago i shot a nice buck at 58 yards in the state of Deleware with the same setup. Im so glad it wasnt at 36 yards and i had my old HUNTER setup i would have to pass him up.
If you like to shoot 35 yards or less than shoot HC
If you think you can move up to 45 yards then shoot MBR.
But dont say that a hunter must shoot 4" vanes and 260fps while wearing two left rocky boats, get real!

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken, It is written in Bow Hunting World In ask the president about money payback. Your answer " We did not design the hunter classes as a venue for competition at 35 yards and less. It certainly was not intended that a shooter shoot 412 to be able to win." This is where you are sticking your foot in your mouth.You wrote " It is much more likely that greater limitations may be brought into effect to limit the participation of Hunter Class shooters who should be moving up to a different class." Written by Ken Watkins how about explaining this to us!

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken, Sounds like to me you want to make changes.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I read that also, and how many hunters shoot at deer 58 yards. Get a rifle, the kills will be cleaner.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

bartman,
like big o said-get a rifle-58 yards, I CAN hit out to 80 yards I got sick of the mbo class i wanted to have FUN shooting and not put out thousands of dollars in equipment yearly to compete and hunt. So I went to the hunter class to accomplish two things save money on buying 1 set up instead of 2, and have fun. As far as saying " If you think you can move up to 45 yards then shoot MBR." I than would have to deal with the likes of you. The hunter class maynot be a distance shoot but the restrictions made for the shooters that CHOOSE to shoot this class is what is interesting. The bulk of the shooters in HC are not new to the IBO, so we are all capable of shooting farther, a thought for you.....if you as good as you say you are come to the HC lose the speed and stablizers and shot with the HC class...or maybe you need that extra stuff to shot better I don' t. OR maybe you can tell me how many IBO championships you have won, if you can hit living deer at 58 yards the plastic ones shouldn' t be a problem...again just some thoughts before you go on bashing a class that is now the largest in the IBO.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I have to agree with Bartman on much of his post. Though I' ve never arrowed a deer that far away, I have never hunted with 4" vanes. When I first started shooting tournament archery (6 months after getting my first bow) I was shooting ICS 400 Field Shafts, screw in 90 grain points, with 1.75" vanes out of a 27.5" draw MQ1 at 64 lbs with a blazing 262 fps.

I went to an IBO CLub and wanted to sign up in the beginner class to compete. There was no beginner class so I signed up in the Huner Class because the targets were closer, but guess what? I couldn' t shoot that class because of my 1.75" vanes. It was shoot for no score or go to the MBR with 6 months of bow shooting experience under my belt and a blistering 262 fps bow speed.

I have gone on to take deer every year since then with those same ICS 400 field shafts using those same Blaze Orange and White 1.75 inch vanes, and have never shot the IBO Hunter Class with my hunting set-up.

In the long run, IBO did me a favor by excluding me from that class, and Bartman knows what I mean. You don' t know how to move shooters up? You tell them, " your average placement is in the top 20% of the class so you' re moving up to MBR!" The only difference in MBR and Hunter is vane length and screw in points. Get rid of that and make it an " experience oriented class" and you will be better off IMHO.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Thanks LDFalks!! I just got done with a long letter and was going to post it but the web went down. But you hit the nail on the head. HC is a great class if those cherry pickers would move up and give a novice a chance.
At are local club we had a bunch of great shooters move to the HC and they shot the kills out of our targets. This is great practice for a hunter as long as a 190 class buck isnt out their at 36 yards HA HA ;)
We started the HC to intice more novice HUNTERS to the sport of 3D not to have great ones move down to cherry pick. IMHO

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I still have trouble understanding where you guys get off trying to tell someone else what class they should be shooting in. If you are happy in your class why not leave everyone else alone, I have shot in MBR what is the big deal about it, I never had the fun we have in the HC. HC has been great for IBO and if left alone will do fine in the future.[8D]

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

LDFalks,
In your description of the differences in HC and MBR you forgot to mention stabilizer length.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

LDFALKS you got turned away not because of your shooting abilty but because of the equipment your using hmmmm. Just a reminder HC is not the distance competion or cherry pickers. But the test of using less to accomplich more. You got turned away from shooting a event because of vanes only. Well if you sign up for MBO and Shoot from the White stakes and got thrown out, its the same thing rules are there to challege those partaking in the event, if this was a free-for-all and shoot what you have and put everyone is the pot, every one shoot from the same stakes how many people would be in their best pray position wanting not to shoot against people with unlimited resourses......Do you want to pay the entry fee of the pro' s and shoot agianst them but NOT have the equipment equal to them..... Please don' t take this as a slam but that' s what rules do limits the playing fields...The speed rule of 5 grains/lbs or 280 fps which one best suites the ENTIRE IBO. Lets all shoot 280 fps......not 275 not 290....a flat 280 fps...than would get rid of the entire youth classes but wait rules are implace to allow slower bows and their stakes are closer than most...AGAIN RULES LEVEL THE FEILD FOR THOSE THAT WANT TO SHOOT ANY CLASS THAT' S OFFERED THE MORE CLASSES THE MORE HAPPY PEOPLE SHOOTING, SHOOT YOUR CLASS AND BE HAPPY IF YOUR NOT MOVE TO A DIFFERENT CLASS THAT YOU WHAT TOO SHOOT

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Guys, This is not, and should not be a personal attack on anyone. If you like a target setup fine, shoot MBR. If you like a scope, shoot MBO. If you like a stick bow , shoot traditional. If you prefer the HC shoot it. The point is no one should be judging anyone else. You are not a supreme being because you shoot in a certain class. It just seems to me a guy or gal in this country should be able to shoot where they want under the rules in thier class without being called a cherry picker ect. How many of you could go out on the HC courses and shoot a 440 with your equipment? How can some one say the HC should not be shooting as well as they do? Are there guys in MBR who should move up to MBO? Are there guys in MBO who should have to move on to PRO? Who makes these judgements? I never came close to winning a major event in the IBO and I have been in a few classes. The guys winning, if they want to , so what. We are all brothers in archery and a battle within will destroy the IBO. I think the people within the different classes should determine thier own fate. Growth of the sport is important. The IBO needs committies within the class to make changes. Who knows better than the shooters what is wanted and needed. Also good shooters in any class will make you work harder if compitition is what you want. We all want different things, that does' nt make us better, or worse as a person. What we do and say detemines that.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I overheard a conversation Saturday under the tent on Skidder slope. Basically what was said was that one gentleman moved from MBO to HC because he wasn' t winning in MBO. The comment was " some money is better than none" I guess he wasn' t worried about improving his skills. He was just there for the money.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

just a thought, how about the HC be required to use a caliper release ??

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I hunt with a Stan... so I wouldn' t like that, but....

How about No Binoculars?

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Use a caliper release?? Use no binoculars?? How about we have give all those in HC blindfolds too. If you don' t like HC get out of it. Move on to bigger and better things. I think the rules for this class are fine the way they are. I wouldn' t care if guys like Hopkins or Brooks dropped down and shot it. That would only make me work harder to try and be a better archer.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

260,260,260!!!! LOL.

You know I find this all just a big waist of time, Why is this issue not left to the members to decide? There should be a members only section to this website where KEN could ask questions and get answers from the members and what the majority wants done is what should be done.

I have heard Ken mention the BOARD who does the board ask? How does a board of people that the members never talk to know how to make changes that will make the members happy? I just think that if you want to make changes make them to make your members happy and not to make IBO happy.

Better yet you want to have a board OK. every year at random you pick 10 members to serve as the members board, Maybe thats what the state reps do but I have never been ask my opinion on anything. Hell give surveys to the reps and have them report the members feelings on subjects and make changes according to how the members feel.



Ok Rant over....:D

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I Agree 200%. The shooters within the class know what they want and what changes they can live with.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I am new to this forum but I had to sign up becouse of a lot of rumors about the HC. The one that I here all the time is shooter moving down to the HC and think that it will help them win. It doesn' t seem to make that much of a difference, I am good friends with the individual that won the world shoot this year and this was his first year that he shot any of the national or word shoots. He has never shot in any other class. Some of the other comments that I have seen I do not agree with either is the type of release and the use of binoculars becouse I use a back tension release with a clicker and binoculars to hunt with. I do agree with the separating the class to include a youth and senores HC. The only change in rules that I would agree with is the speed limit. I have a short draw length and can never reach the 300 fps mark. I currently shoot about 280 fps at 5g per pound. That means if I have to shoot against a person that is of the same shooting ability but they are shoot at or above 300 fps, That means that I have to judge my distance much better than they do. That means that the competition is now decided by equipment and not the ability of the shooter. And this sport is a competition and not hunting. What you do in the woods is up to you but in competition the playing field should be as level as possible so that the best archer can be determined and not the best equipment.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I keep seeing these references to the HC as being designed as an " entry level" class, some sort of halfway house between staying home and shooting the " real classes" . If that was the original intention for the class, then it should probably have been labeled a " Beginner Class" or somesuch. I think the great popularity of the class is largely due to many others who, like myself, enjoy coming out and competing with our HUNTING gear. For a few guys, some of whom were heard from above, hunting gear also means three-foot stabilizers and scopes and 1 3/4" vanes, but for the vast majority of us, hunting gear means pins and short stabilizers and 4" fletching, because we' ve found those to be more practical in the field, and we limit our shots to what WE consider hunting ranges. I competed years ago in IBO, but dropped out because the only way to get serious was to buy a whole different rig, and to shoot at ranges that bore no resemblance to hunting ranges, in MY opinion. Besides the expense, I just didn' t WANT to have to shoot two completely dissimilar rigs and have to always be adapting to the target bow for half the summer, then adapting to the hunting rig for a few weeks before season. Better to shoot one type bow and sights all year, and just change points and go hunting. So, equipment restrictions were what it was all about to me, and to many others, when this class was started. Not experience, as I' ve shot for 40+ years. Not seriousness, as I' d enjoy the class just as much if it was the only one and I had to try to beat Christenberry. Put the best shooters in the class that want to shoot it, and let the best man win! Only a very few are competing with any real expectation of actually winning the class anyway; most of us who shoot do enjoy seeing how we stack up against some top shooters, shooting the same gear at the same range. Where' s the fun in seeing how we stack up against a bunch of beginners and guys who would be shooting some other class if they were any good? Seems like in a BOWHUNTING organization, there should be a place for guys to shoot BOWHUNTING gear, at BOWHUNTING distances, against each other without it being referred to as the " Bunny slope" . Right now we have that place, and it' s VERY popular. Mess with it to try to " fix" it so the " good shooters" will stay away, and you' ll end up fixing it so the great numbers of shooters you' ve pulled in with the class will get tired of being insulted and will go back to their local shooting and away from the IBO. I know I' m not likely to ever collect any of the pot after a major shoot, but if I ever do get lucky and win or place well, I' d want to claim a prize that had some good shooters competing for it, not some " booby prize" that should read " Best of the Not Very Good" on it. I see we' re paying the full entry price now, so we should have the same pot split. If you want to try a " Beginners Only" class, or one for " Guys That Don' t Shoot Very Well" , by all means have at it, but that' s not what you' ve created in the HC. By original intent or not, what you have created is going over very well, and doesn' t need tampered with. For many of us, moving to a 45-yard class with what we consider non-hunting equipment is not " moving up" !

I should add that even though the above might seem like an angry type post, I' m really very happy with what the IBO has done in creating the HC, just would like to see it get the respect it deserves and not be " fixed" or " dumbed down" .

I also like the IBO' s position on supporting hunting and appreciate the money raised for defending bowhunting through the Bowhunter Defense courses. I think the organization is mostly on track and doing very well, just adding my $.02 worth to the conversation.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Ken, Are you starting to get It ?

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

I have to agree with Russ Koon, The IBO has done a good job with this class so far. But I would like to see the recognition for the shooters in this class from the IBO. While I was watching the awards ceremony I noticed they did not give a shooter of the year to the hunter class and when I looked at the rules I found out that they don' t recognize this class. It' s not the money but the lack of recognition for the largest class in the IBO. There is as much money or more brought in by this class than any other, but you don' t even recognize a shooter of the year.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

At the local shoots I go to their is about 30-50 hunter class shooters. Most of the time their isnt enough people in the mbo,and mbr class to place three trophies. In the hunter class their mite be five people that shoot a score over 300. I think that the hunter class is where the competition is. If the mbo and mbr classes had more shooters and their scores where as close as the hunter class scores I would move up.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

:D:D:D Amen to Russ k.' s comments.

RE: Hunter Class under fire!
 

Hey wait a minute, maybe you can run HC like FBH where every one gets a prize!!!

O, wait... Ken Screwed that up too LOL.