NY Bowhunters proposal
02-07-2005, 05:43 AM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
BuckAlley
"But I'd prefer it before the regular season"
but before regular season means in the heart of bow season and prime rut time
I would not be heartbroken if there was no early ML (but would take advantage of it), but definitely want more time at the end of the year.
There will definitely be changes for 2005, they haven't gone through all this trouble for nuthin'.
BTW - the new "interum" Commish was announced. Can't remember the name, but I don't think they have any/much management background. additionally, the original replacement (Stark), declined the appointment for "personal" reasons.
"But I'd prefer it before the regular season"
but before regular season means in the heart of bow season and prime rut time
I would not be heartbroken if there was no early ML (but would take advantage of it), but definitely want more time at the end of the year.
There will definitely be changes for 2005, they haven't gone through all this trouble for nuthin'.
BTW - the new "interum" Commish was announced. Can't remember the name, but I don't think they have any/much management background. additionally, the original replacement (Stark), declined the appointment for "personal" reasons.
02-07-2005, 05:59 AM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Taken from another site:
The governor is appointing Denise Sheehan as the acting commissioner instead of Lynette Stark. Lynette couldn't take over due to an illness in her family.
Here's a little bit: In 2002, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) Commissioner Erin M. Crotty appointed Denise Sheehan as Executive Deputy Commissioner at DEC.
"Denise is an extremely talented and dedicated professional whose expertise has made her an invaluable part of the DEC team," Commissioner Crotty said. "Denise is an asset to me and the entire Department and I'm confident that with her as executive deputy we will continue New York's unprecedented progress in conserving and protecting our environment and natural resources."
Sheehan, who will report directly to the Commissioner, will manage the day-to-day operations of the Department and provide policy direction to executive staff.
Sheehan has served as assistant commissioner of administration at DEC since March 2001, responsible for managing and overseeing the Department's administrative functions, including fiscal and personnel, environmental permits, operations, information systems, and public affairs and education. She joined DEC in 1998 as a special assistant in the Bond Act Office where she helped to coordinate implementation of the $1.75 billion Clean Water/Clean Air Bond Act. Prior to joining DEC, Sheehan worked for nearly 11 years at the New York State Division of the Budget where she oversaw the budgets of the State's environmental, recreational and energy agencies.
Sheehan holds a Bachelor of Science in Economics & Political Science from the State University of New York at Oneonta and a Master of Public Administration from the University at Albany's Rockefeller College of Public Affairs. She lives in Niskayuna, Schenectady County, with her husband Michael Miller
The governor is appointing Denise Sheehan as the acting commissioner instead of Lynette Stark. Lynette couldn't take over due to an illness in her family.
Here's a little bit: In 2002, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) Commissioner Erin M. Crotty appointed Denise Sheehan as Executive Deputy Commissioner at DEC.
"Denise is an extremely talented and dedicated professional whose expertise has made her an invaluable part of the DEC team," Commissioner Crotty said. "Denise is an asset to me and the entire Department and I'm confident that with her as executive deputy we will continue New York's unprecedented progress in conserving and protecting our environment and natural resources."
Sheehan, who will report directly to the Commissioner, will manage the day-to-day operations of the Department and provide policy direction to executive staff.
Sheehan has served as assistant commissioner of administration at DEC since March 2001, responsible for managing and overseeing the Department's administrative functions, including fiscal and personnel, environmental permits, operations, information systems, and public affairs and education. She joined DEC in 1998 as a special assistant in the Bond Act Office where she helped to coordinate implementation of the $1.75 billion Clean Water/Clean Air Bond Act. Prior to joining DEC, Sheehan worked for nearly 11 years at the New York State Division of the Budget where she oversaw the budgets of the State's environmental, recreational and energy agencies.
Sheehan holds a Bachelor of Science in Economics & Political Science from the State University of New York at Oneonta and a Master of Public Administration from the University at Albany's Rockefeller College of Public Affairs. She lives in Niskayuna, Schenectady County, with her husband Michael Miller
02-07-2005, 06:13 AM
#33
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Phade I understand your not in total agreement with this proposal, but for some reason you seem to believe you have a total understanding if its reasons. So now were talking the 7 day ml, doe only, DMP tag only as a micro-mgmt tool! I really wonder if the DEC even has a clue anymore! In my DMU I've seen 2 yrs of double issued permits, to 1 permit, to permit w/ perference pt only, to landowners only, and now to help fill permits, and micro mgmt our herds open this special DMP ML season. I still say its b.s. There are other reasons were not being made aware of here.
Here's what I think, its more to satisfy the groups wanting more ML time, its to give hunters more opportunity in the woods becasue license sales are down, and that results in lack of $ to the DEC. But I feel the big reason license sales are down in this state is becasue of what hunters want most! Large bucks, and lots of deer. How many hunters you know consider hunts in states known for larger bucks such as Illinios, Kansas, etc. Think back to when deer hunters #'s were up, we had alot more deer. Now I understand we have to mgmt to the carrying capacity of the land, but its since become more then that. Its about crop lands damage, auto-deer accidents. The lack of deer, and large bucks has caused hunters in this state to buy, lease, and post lands for their own private use to manage their own herds for that lifetime trophy. I know for a fact two large companys in this state that lease lands for hunting rights are sold out on leases. All their woods are being leased. Just like Yox wrote private, posted, and unhunted lands are harbouring alot of deer, that are being accounted for in the overall population. Deer that can't be harvested. Deer that regulate how many permits will be issued to each DMU. So how can the DEC even possibly mgmt this herd correctly. Thats where the problem is private, posted, unhuntable lands harbouring deer. To help solve this issue the DEC needs to consider such things as tax breaks for private land owners opening their land to hunting. Going to a full QDM program to grow larger bucks, and develope a healthier herd. The move towards 2 DMU's being antlered restricted is the first step, but it should've been done yrs ago. I was learning about QDM 20yrs ago in college, but yet its the private owners that are practicing QDM, planting food plots, making antler restrictions in their hunting groups. Not our fabulous DEC. Its time this state WOKE UP! A 7 day doe only, DMP tag only ml season in the middle of archery is hardly the answer. Why is it being proposed in the middle of Oct., and archery season? Becasue thats the soonest the DEC proclaims they can issue DMP's for the upcoming season, even with the computer license system upgrade. More b.s. Too much B.S. ,I'm tired of the B.S., period!
Phade I understand your not in total agreement with this proposal, but for some reason you seem to believe you have a total understanding if its reasons. So now were talking the 7 day ml, doe only, DMP tag only as a micro-mgmt tool! I really wonder if the DEC even has a clue anymore! In my DMU I've seen 2 yrs of double issued permits, to 1 permit, to permit w/ perference pt only, to landowners only, and now to help fill permits, and micro mgmt our herds open this special DMP ML season. I still say its b.s. There are other reasons were not being made aware of here.
Here's what I think, its more to satisfy the groups wanting more ML time, its to give hunters more opportunity in the woods becasue license sales are down, and that results in lack of $ to the DEC. But I feel the big reason license sales are down in this state is becasue of what hunters want most! Large bucks, and lots of deer. How many hunters you know consider hunts in states known for larger bucks such as Illinios, Kansas, etc. Think back to when deer hunters #'s were up, we had alot more deer. Now I understand we have to mgmt to the carrying capacity of the land, but its since become more then that. Its about crop lands damage, auto-deer accidents. The lack of deer, and large bucks has caused hunters in this state to buy, lease, and post lands for their own private use to manage their own herds for that lifetime trophy. I know for a fact two large companys in this state that lease lands for hunting rights are sold out on leases. All their woods are being leased. Just like Yox wrote private, posted, and unhunted lands are harbouring alot of deer, that are being accounted for in the overall population. Deer that can't be harvested. Deer that regulate how many permits will be issued to each DMU. So how can the DEC even possibly mgmt this herd correctly. Thats where the problem is private, posted, unhuntable lands harbouring deer. To help solve this issue the DEC needs to consider such things as tax breaks for private land owners opening their land to hunting. Going to a full QDM program to grow larger bucks, and develope a healthier herd. The move towards 2 DMU's being antlered restricted is the first step, but it should've been done yrs ago. I was learning about QDM 20yrs ago in college, but yet its the private owners that are practicing QDM, planting food plots, making antler restrictions in their hunting groups. Not our fabulous DEC. Its time this state WOKE UP! A 7 day doe only, DMP tag only ml season in the middle of archery is hardly the answer. Why is it being proposed in the middle of Oct., and archery season? Becasue thats the soonest the DEC proclaims they can issue DMP's for the upcoming season, even with the computer license system upgrade. More b.s. Too much B.S. ,I'm tired of the B.S., period!
I also know that your belief on liscense sales is wrong. This recent trends have proven that sales have actually been even, or marginally higher than the previous year. They wish to encourage hunting on Sat. becasue they want to entice younger hunters becasue the average hunter in NYS in the the mid 40's.
My car payments, and other bills require I am in the know regarding issues of NYS.
Antler Restrictions are going to be even more controversial here than the season changes. Alot of hunters do not want to see another PA here. Wait till that comes up in a year or two for state-wide consideration.
02-07-2005, 06:23 AM
#34
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
Taken from another site:
The governor is appointing Denise Sheehan as the acting commissioner instead of Lynette Stark. Lynette couldn't take over due to an illness in her family.
Here's a little bit: In 2002, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) Commissioner Erin M. Crotty appointed Denise Sheehan as Executive Deputy Commissioner at DEC.
"Denise is an extremely talented and dedicated professional whose expertise has made her an invaluable part of the DEC team," Commissioner Crotty said. "Denise is an asset to me and the entire Department and I'm confident that with her as executive deputy we will continue New York's unprecedented progress in conserving and protecting our environment and natural resources."
Sheehan, who will report directly to the Commissioner, will manage the day-to-day operations of the Department and provide policy direction to executive staff.
Sheehan has served as assistant commissioner of administration at DEC since March 2001, responsible for managing and overseeing the Department's administrative functions, including fiscal and personnel, environmental permits, operations, information systems, and public affairs and education. She joined DEC in 1998 as a special assistant in the Bond Act Office where she helped to coordinate implementation of the $1.75 billion Clean Water/Clean Air Bond Act. Prior to joining DEC, Sheehan worked for nearly 11 years at the New York State Division of the Budget where she oversaw the budgets of the State's environmental, recreational and energy agencies.
Sheehan holds a Bachelor of Science in Economics & Political Science from the State University of New York at Oneonta and a Master of Public Administration from the University at Albany's Rockefeller College of Public Affairs. She lives in Niskayuna, Schenectady County, with her husband Michael Miller
Taken from another site:
The governor is appointing Denise Sheehan as the acting commissioner instead of Lynette Stark. Lynette couldn't take over due to an illness in her family.
Here's a little bit: In 2002, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) Commissioner Erin M. Crotty appointed Denise Sheehan as Executive Deputy Commissioner at DEC.
"Denise is an extremely talented and dedicated professional whose expertise has made her an invaluable part of the DEC team," Commissioner Crotty said. "Denise is an asset to me and the entire Department and I'm confident that with her as executive deputy we will continue New York's unprecedented progress in conserving and protecting our environment and natural resources."
Sheehan, who will report directly to the Commissioner, will manage the day-to-day operations of the Department and provide policy direction to executive staff.
Sheehan has served as assistant commissioner of administration at DEC since March 2001, responsible for managing and overseeing the Department's administrative functions, including fiscal and personnel, environmental permits, operations, information systems, and public affairs and education. She joined DEC in 1998 as a special assistant in the Bond Act Office where she helped to coordinate implementation of the $1.75 billion Clean Water/Clean Air Bond Act. Prior to joining DEC, Sheehan worked for nearly 11 years at the New York State Division of the Budget where she oversaw the budgets of the State's environmental, recreational and energy agencies.
Sheehan holds a Bachelor of Science in Economics & Political Science from the State University of New York at Oneonta and a Master of Public Administration from the University at Albany's Rockefeller College of Public Affairs. She lives in Niskayuna, Schenectady County, with her husband Michael Miller
02-07-2005, 11:06 AM
#35
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
As I scratch my balding noggin, I cant, for the life of me, understand how this MZ early season gift is for appeasing the muzzleloader crowd...WHAT muzzleloader crowd? I would dare say that as a guess, theres probably 60 to 70% bowhunters who are what I would consider passionate bowhunters, in that theyre active in supporting it either through their involvement or bowhunting groups. I dont think I can say the same for MZers. Id guess theres about 10% that are true PRIMITIVE WEAPONS purists. The rest of us MZers are simply opportunists. We still enjoy the muzzleloader, but its just another season to us, using a super accurate weapon that takes the place of shotguns with a 100 extra yards, and the rifle we cant use legally here. So, I dont see why the DEC would p8ss off the majority (bowhunters) for a minority (the true hard core MZers).
Heck, we are going to move the Gun opener to a Saturday, just move it BACK to the previous Saturday and allow the MZers to use their tag then too.
Heck, we are going to move the Gun opener to a Saturday, just move it BACK to the previous Saturday and allow the MZers to use their tag then too.
02-09-2005, 11:13 PM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Altmar New York USA
Posts: 1,247
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Yox, I believe the DEC may be looking at the popularity the 7 day ML season has gotten in the northern tier region. Trust me its a single shot, shotgun opener. I hear more shots in the woods for the ml opener, then I do on the regular rifle season opener in Northern tier. I'm sure the DEC feels it'd be even more popular in the Southern tier eventually.
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
02-10-2005, 06:40 AM
#37
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Yox, I believe the DEC may be looking at the popularity the 7 day ML season has gotten in the northern tier region. Trust me its a single shot, shotgun opener. I hear more shots in the woods for the ml opener, then I do on the regular rifle season opener in Northern tier. I'm sure the DEC feels it'd be even more popular in the Southern tier eventually.
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
Yox, I believe the DEC may be looking at the popularity the 7 day ML season has gotten in the northern tier region. Trust me its a single shot, shotgun opener. I hear more shots in the woods for the ml opener, then I do on the regular rifle season opener in Northern tier. I'm sure the DEC feels it'd be even more popular in the Southern tier eventually.
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
I cant tell you why you hear anything.
If you want numbers, look at the premier issue of NY Outdoor News. It clearly states that numbers were at and possibly slightly higher than '03 in 2004. That came from the gentleman in charge of the division at the DEC.
You might be thinking of the average age of hunters getting higher, cause it is in the mid to upper 40's right now. However, the DEC wants to incorporate the younger hunters to lower the age average so sales do not drop in about 10-15 yrs.
NY has a LARGE number of hunters. One of the highest in WHOLE country!
02-10-2005, 07:00 AM
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 1,157
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
. Trust me its a single shot, shotgun opener. I hear more shots in the woods for the ml opener, then I do on the regular rifle season .
. Trust me its a single shot, shotgun opener. I hear more shots in the woods for the ml opener, then I do on the regular rifle season .
02-10-2005, 07:07 AM
#39
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
Phade if I'm way off on license sales. Then why is it all I hear being preached is how hunters numbers are way down, and I've read this in several articles over the yrs.
I did some research BuckAlley as to what you "hear" and read all the time. I really do not know what you read, but I would question them a bit.
I checked the Census surveys done by New York in 1996, and 2001 (obviously every 5 years)
Here are the results:
1996
Resident hunters: 608,000 hunters
Non Resident: 34,000 hunters
Total: 642,000 hunters
2001
Resident hunters: 635,000 hunters
Non-Resident hunters: 79,000 hunters
Total: 714,000 hunters.
Looks like we gained 70,000 hunters in NY, but somehow numbers keep dropping?
And the trend from '01 is similar to now, we have averaged about the same total number of in-state hunters, varying on out of state hunters.
What do you read, and who do you talk to?
Just for you to take a gander...
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/01fhw/fhw01-ny.pdf
2001 survey
http://www.census.gov/prod/3/98pubs/nyfhw698.pdf
1996
I really am curious to see what your response is here. Please show me evidence of NY losing hunters for the last several years like you said.....
And I know with the internet, people can mistake what is said in the manner it is said. My words should in no way be taken as being smart-a@@ in any way, as I really just want to know who is putting out these numbers so I can look at them myself and see where they came from.
02-10-2005, 10:09 AM
#40
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
This will sound like a slam toward some folks, as it will contradict whats been posted lately, but please, dont take this personally. Im known for "saying it like it is" so I just put it out there.
I for one dont wanna call the DEC PR group liars, but we have to remember that these numbers are coming from the same folks who claim to not know where all the deer are, and blame winterkills and coyotes, when we ALL know they want to cut the herd back and gave away a bazillion permits to do so. ( and of course, we shot the deer too!) Right there tells me I need to use MY common sense, over THEIR numbers.
Now let me tell you, taxidermists are a funny breed. Most would rather boast about how many deer they took in, or how big they were, rather than how much money they made that year. Butchers talk based on numbers too. Any butcher you know bases the season on intake numbers, and so do these taxidermists. The funny thing about both, especially taxidermists, is that they do NOT like to let their guard down, as in admit that they dont have work coming in. Its just a thing, the way it is. Trust me, Im a taxidermist and, because of the place Im put in within the industry, I deal with taxidermists all over the country. Its about the numbers.
So when guys start talking about lower numbers, thats a fact. They seldom wanna talk LOWER numbers. So when they even start calling EACH OTHER, and ask about numbers, you know theres something going on. Then, when even the butchers start calling us, thats REALLY telling. Many states were down, and its not just PA with its AR plan. For these professionals to let their guards down and talk openly to each other about not taking in work, well, thats telling!
Hunter numbers are way down, theres no doubt. I can remember when I was a teen, in the 70's, when a guy shot a deer, buck or doe, we all went out and saw it, as something of note. Youd spend the whole day, or two days, "down south" hunting, and on your return, follow behind a car or truck with a deer on it, just to see what he had. By the 80's and 90's we had so many deer, EVERYONE killed deer. By the year 2000 we were choosing what buck to shoot and how many does to take. But, remember back when the sides of the road were lined with cars, and every field edge along the woods was dotted with orange vests? Its different now, no doubt about it.
In this day and age of downsizing jobs, less guys can take time off to hunt, and still others have changed priorities because of job changes and family committments altered by these new, less paying jobs. I know this might not illustrate what happens across the state, but take Buffalo, Rochester, and even Syracuse, and Ill bet ya. Thats where 50% of my workload comes from.
Starting the opener on a Saturday will help sales for sure, as it will return an Opening Day for many. But Ill still maintain, regardless of posted numbers and stats, that hunters afield and deer take is down.
I for one dont wanna call the DEC PR group liars, but we have to remember that these numbers are coming from the same folks who claim to not know where all the deer are, and blame winterkills and coyotes, when we ALL know they want to cut the herd back and gave away a bazillion permits to do so. ( and of course, we shot the deer too!) Right there tells me I need to use MY common sense, over THEIR numbers.
Now let me tell you, taxidermists are a funny breed. Most would rather boast about how many deer they took in, or how big they were, rather than how much money they made that year. Butchers talk based on numbers too. Any butcher you know bases the season on intake numbers, and so do these taxidermists. The funny thing about both, especially taxidermists, is that they do NOT like to let their guard down, as in admit that they dont have work coming in. Its just a thing, the way it is. Trust me, Im a taxidermist and, because of the place Im put in within the industry, I deal with taxidermists all over the country. Its about the numbers.
So when guys start talking about lower numbers, thats a fact. They seldom wanna talk LOWER numbers. So when they even start calling EACH OTHER, and ask about numbers, you know theres something going on. Then, when even the butchers start calling us, thats REALLY telling. Many states were down, and its not just PA with its AR plan. For these professionals to let their guards down and talk openly to each other about not taking in work, well, thats telling!
Hunter numbers are way down, theres no doubt. I can remember when I was a teen, in the 70's, when a guy shot a deer, buck or doe, we all went out and saw it, as something of note. Youd spend the whole day, or two days, "down south" hunting, and on your return, follow behind a car or truck with a deer on it, just to see what he had. By the 80's and 90's we had so many deer, EVERYONE killed deer. By the year 2000 we were choosing what buck to shoot and how many does to take. But, remember back when the sides of the road were lined with cars, and every field edge along the woods was dotted with orange vests? Its different now, no doubt about it.
In this day and age of downsizing jobs, less guys can take time off to hunt, and still others have changed priorities because of job changes and family committments altered by these new, less paying jobs. I know this might not illustrate what happens across the state, but take Buffalo, Rochester, and even Syracuse, and Ill bet ya. Thats where 50% of my workload comes from.
Starting the opener on a Saturday will help sales for sure, as it will return an Opening Day for many. But Ill still maintain, regardless of posted numbers and stats, that hunters afield and deer take is down.