Deer management in PA
 

For those of you who are missing the point of HR,let me explain.
The DCNR has determined that deer are destroying the forests therefore they want them exterminated and if hunters can't do the job they'll use other means.Now this tells me they don't recognize hunting as a means of recreation compared to hikers,skiers,bikers,birdwatchers,tourists,etc.The PGC is only interested in saving the forests and giving what the DCNR wants because of threats.They don't care about the private land.Sure there's some farmers complaining about crop damage but let's face it,with the amount of tags handed out today the only farms with too many deer are farms that are posted or surrounded by posted land.In that case the farmers need to take that up with their neighbors.If an area is open to hunting there is not a problem with too many deer eating the crops and if you actually think there is then you need to get out more.It's called access and where there isn't much like in the SW or extreme SE you have overpopulation.
OK so scratch the DCNR from future huntable land,Rendell signed that off to tourism and the tree huggers.That leaves us the gamelands for the unfortunate folks that have to hunt public land.And the last I checked these lands were bought by the hunters to "MANAGE WILDLIFE".Deer does fall under that catagory.First of all that means stick to the plan of clearcutting and stop giving into the extremists like the DCNR did.Secondly offer a $5 fee/tag for the people who want to hunt here with that money going toward habitat improvement.I for one would pay even more then that for an oppertunity for some decent deer hunting.That way the gamelands can be managed for what they were bought for-wildlife management.
I hear folks from the SW say that in the past they had to travel to the NC to hunt for deer and now say people are complaining because the shoe is on the other foot.That arguement doesn't hold water because those people had thousands of acres of state land to roam in which used to be great hunting.That oppertunity doesn't exist in the SW because it's mostly private.
If you are fortunate enough to live within private land and have access don't be selfish and flame others who are complaining about the lack of deer on public land.Listen to these people because there's obviosly a problem here.The forest lands are lost to the tree huggers but we can do something about our wonderful game lands system.
Oh yeah,I hear Alt might be headed to California,he'll fit right in there.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I am giddy, thinking that tomorrow is Cut n' Runs last day.

The new year really is starting to look up!

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Wow!You really lost me on that post dude!:eek:

RE: Deer management in PA
 

when I pop that cork tommorrow night at 12 midnite I hope it hits Dr. Gary Alt right in the a-- on his way out!

Germain: I understand your thought to the $5 no big deal for anyone to drop a fin these days, but the point is those lands were purchased for wildlife. The PGC gets the tax break on them because of recreation for all Pa's residents, exactly the same as the F&B Comm. gets a break on waterways and surronding lands cause of recreation. As long as it's recreation we the owners of the Gamelands are going to need to get use to the flower sniffers,mtn bikers,etc. While we want them there less they want more access. the issue of timbering is quite different . EVERY hunter should be beatingf on the PGC's door on Jan 23 demanding more harvests of the timber for both habitat and the cash value it represents.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Oh I agree with you ulysses.But their arguement is that the deer are also destroying the forest on gamelands.The idea of a fee was just to counter that.They need to include deer as "managing wildlife"The plan they have today isn't managing it's eradicating.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

IF the deer were really hard on the habitat on SGL's then why has the PGC not enrolled one single SGL into its OWN program DMAP to address it???? I guess we all know the answer to that.... because the PGC does not use science alone to manage deer. Never have, never will.

They have always managed to a social carrying capacity based on some hunters input. They know hunters would have a cow if a SGL were enrolled, if its a state forest the PGC can always point at DCNR as the bad guy.

Some PGC zealots claim that going to the PGC meeting this year will be a waste of time as the PGC is not listening to hunters. (They pretend the PGC is only listening to biologists anymore which is a joke).

Last year not enough momentum had swung, the trip up to Harrisburg was not a real impact, but this year is different. The momentum IS shifting and if hunters turn out in good numbers to speak about the dismal hunting the commission WILL react. Its just whether enough hunters will show up. Last year there was a small turnout. The PGC invited several dozen people from conservation groups, nonhunters and DCNR employees to speak and it offset the hunters opinions.

The state of Pa has always listened to what hunters want.
When the fad of QDM drifted around the east the commissioners did what was normal, they listened to QDM'ers promises of wonderfull hunting in a small herd and combined that with timber companies and convservationists desires for a small herd and put pathetic regs into affect, like AR.

and as is normal, and has happened many times before, hunters sit back and show apathy and take a 'wait and see' attitude.

well.........now they have waited, and they have seen the suky hunting that a smaller herd with the tacky use Antler Restrictions provides. Lowered buck harvests, decreased sightings, lowered hunter satisfaction, and AR is turning off some hunters who don't like the loss of freedom to take a deer of thier choice just to appease some wannabe trophy hunter.


Attending this years meeting will make a difference. The amount of hunters who show up and spleak will directly relate to the regs for the next year. Remember that there are many Alties out there who will be very quick to point it out if only a handfull show up.

Dr. Alt did that last January. After many speakers spoke against his deer plan he dis'd hunters by saying that "we only heard from 50 hunters today, there are a million still out there we have not heard from".

What a snotty slap in the face to those who did go last year. If for nothing else, go to show that he was wrong.

....and take a friend.

....and ask why the commission is not looking for a new Executive Director. This one has led us to 5+ years of lies, misleading, poor communications and smoke and mirrors. Is that what hunters of pa deserve??

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Come on Chic lets form up the troops an storm the walls on Elmerton Ave!! I'll be there 1 of the days at least probably 1/23

RE: Deer management in PA
 

We'll be there with bells on!

RE: Deer management in PA
 

germain, You will probably get results on this post if the PGC sees $5.00. Anything to generate more revenue without doing any work is right down their alley. Like the timber sales that are not reported and the other schemes you never hear about. Like the slick move of dropping the doe tag from the archery license. I thought they wanted doe harvested. The increased revenue from license fees dedicated to wildlife concerns that never seem to find the correct account for deposit. And last, the endless BS stories of how hard life is at the PGC. You ever been in their Harrisburg office? This is like a mini NRA. Piss away money from dedicated accounts to buy vehicles, pay increases and retirements for a sub standard employees. Put the ledger on the table and tell me again where the money went. [:@][:'(][>:]

RE: Deer management in PA
 

sniper,the DCNR uses the excuse of "save our forests" when it comes to deer management when in reality it's to make room for the elk and tourism.It would be interesting to see what excuse the PGC would use to kill all the deer on the SGL'S with an added fee toward habitat improvement.
Yeah they put some food plots in but the ones I saw lack the nutients to grow.They can blame the deer until the cows come home but the bottom line is oaks need sunlight and some space to grow.If the soil is right and they have the sunlight oaks will grow.
The irony of this whole thing is that the original complaints were about the maples taking over the forests.Well deer browse the maples so what's reducing them going to do?Allow alot more maples to grow!
This whole fiasco is a scam straight from the tree huggers and some hunters are actually falling for it.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

very very true that some hunters have fallen for the environmentalists.

Pa can support decent deer numbers, but as we all know there is always a trade off with the environment to do so. Has for 100 years, and will continue to.

Environmentalists want 0 impact to flora in pa, and that is not realistic. When the PGC gets done alienating hunters and catering to the environmentalists the pendulum will settle into a spot in the middle where there is a balance between enviromental extremism like in the staff of the PGC and DCNR and all the rest of the normal people of pa who realize that you always have to give up something to get something.

It really won't matter for many hunters are dropping out of hunting because the bottom line is they do not enjoy hunting in these restricted conditions. To many it is just not worth it anymore.

We used to worry about anti-hunters and PETA causing problems for hunters, isn't it ironic that in the end the thing most driving hunters away is the PGC and DCNR.....

RE: Deer management in PA
 

BYE BYE MR ALT. This state is going down Thanks PGC and Mr ALT

RE: Deer management in PA
 

You make a good point chickory.The PGC/DCNR will be more responsible for hunter numbers dwindling in PA then Peta ever imagined.
I used to be against the merger but at this point it doesn't matter because the merger already took place.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I've posted several times that the PGC has done more thru Altism to bring an end to sportsmen/s numbers than any ANTI hunting org could possibly do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Deer management in PA
 

germain, your right on the money. If you dig a little deeper it's amazing how much revenue was funneled through this agency that just disappeared. It just sliiiiiiiides out the door without any questions. David Copperfield is still scratching his head on this one. HOW DID THEY DO THAT? Slick Eddie Randel can tell you, but he won't.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Wow. You guys should maybe think about consolidating your "complaints" about the PA DNR onto one post, as they are getting too numerous to read.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I see you found the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I think all "ALTISM" did was weed out the "wannabe buck hunters" because there isn't a spike behind every tree.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I think that if all of these hunters who are going to quit hunting are going to leave some really good hunting to the guys who continue. A reduced herd, healthier deer, more mature bucks and less hunting pressure. That would get me to continue hunting.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

If we continue to loose more hunters the PGC will never be able to control the herd. Even with 1 M hunters they only sold around 550K anterless tags on the first round ,which shows many hunters don't want to harvest anterless deer. While fewer hunter may in fact result in better hunting for the remaining hunters , it will also result in a population explosion and a repeat of the same problems Alt tried to correct.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

550k out of 1M is better than half...most DO want to kill does. It's been interesting reading the PGC/Alt debacle, but am curious to know what will be said..IF... when the new admin takes over, things don't improve? who'll be blamed then??? The passion of the sport is evident here, maybe enough to be blinded by the fact that there's more NON-hunters than hunters,(in about every state) and their $$ is just as good as yours. It's also amazing to read this very type of controversy in about 6-8 different Eastern states...

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I think hunters dropping out will help the hunters who remain. Pa had too many hunters for what deer we have. But it costs the sport as a whole. Nobody will miss 2 or three hunters gone from my woods, but thier license dollars are only part of the equation. With less hunters, the sport loses clout, loses revenue, and loses overall.

Those that are left will have more to go around, but will come with a cost...

RE: Deer management in PA
 

One really large item that seems to be ignored on most threads is hunter numbers ten years ago vs numbers today. They are on the decline. One would tend to think the PGC would be willing to try most anything to keep hunter numbers stable.
With less hunters less deer are controlled.
With less and less access to hunting land hunters give up the sport forcing deer management into an impossible goal, short of sharpshooters eliminating deer. Only so many deer can be killed regardless of how many tags a single holds. Very few hunters are able or will kill enough deer to make up for the decline of other hunters. Add that to more hunters flocking to public land as their one time private land is now posted or sold off. What you get is more deer being killed where hunters have access to them and less where they don't.
The PGC should place more resources into enrollment of private land holders to keep their lands open to hunting. Rather than improving trails for hikers,joggers,bikers,etc.. This could be accomplished easily with revamping the current 1960 enrollment procedures and bringing them up to date. ex. I own a store that sells outdoor equipment clothes, ammo fishing rods bait etc. 15 years ago I had only other small shops to vie with for sportsmean's dollars. Today I have a Cabelas and a Bass Pro shop within easy driving distance of my shop. If I still advertised and offered the same quality of service I did 15 years ago my doors would be shut in 2 months.
The PGC still uses the same programs today they did for years for farm enrollment.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

[quoteI think hunters dropping out will help the hunters who remain. Pa had too many hunters for what deer we have.][/quote]

Don't you mean we have to many buck hunters and not enough anterless hunters? The herd couldn't have increased like it did if we had too many doe hunters.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

ONLY sold 550k tags in the first round, half of the guys don't even have a license when tags go on sale. And that shows that the majority of guys who have a license when tags go on sale DO buy a doe tag.

I guess only having a couple thousand tags left out of 1M shows that nobody wants to shoot doe too. Or the fact that over 300k doe were shot in each of the past 2 years. Yeah, not many hunters want to harvest a doe.:D

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Yes, DD you are absolutley correct. I should have said too many buck hunters.

those are the ones who are dropping out as harvests drop. As for doe, there will always be an increasing load put on them as the hunter base drops. In a few years, in the smaller hunter base, those who remain will propbably be under a earn a buck system. where they must shoot doe(s) before being allowed a buck tag.

With fewer hunters everyone will get mulitple tags, if they plan to reduce, then stabilize the herd ar the PGC goal of 12dpsm.

I'm not to worried about long term, if the PGC does not improve as a result of this, I will have plenty of "other" things to do.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Dont really want to see hunter numbers drop, but if we're gonna lose some, it might as well be the one day, and only one day, opening day nimrods.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Bt you sure you aren't an anti hunter in sheep's clothing? Making statements like that? EVERY hunter is important even the horn boys soon as #s drop the Rendell flower sniffers have the upper hand.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

What part of that didnt you understand???

RE: Deer management in PA
 

the part that goes ...if we're gonna lose someetc.
I would think you of all people would be more interested in keeping all hunters than most. Baaaahhhhh

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Hunters we can all afford to lose:

The guy who goes to camp, drinks all night, stumbles out into the woods for a couple of hours and spends the next year complaining that he didnt see any deer.

The hunter, who, even though he knows he's being tracked by a gps for a study, who never gets more than 100 yards from a road the entire time and then spends the rest of the year complaining he saw no deer.

The hunter who monopolizes a public forum with rants and raves over and over with anything he can come up with to agitate his fellow hunters.
The guy who really doesnt believe in anything except causing trouble. Oh, and spending his entire year complaining that he saw no deer.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I could make a long list of disparaging comments about archers who only wnat to harvest trophy buck or rifle hunters that refuse to harvest doe and we could accumulate a class of several hundred thousand hunters that wouldn't be missed by the hunters that remain. But, would the remaining hunters be willing to harvest enough doe to control the herd or would a higher percebtage of the remaining hunters be trophy hunters ,who have no desire to control the herd?

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I think that most trophy hunters know that they need a low density, well balanced herd to produce those trophies so I think that they would control the herd or they would no longer be able to kill trophies.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

That is part of why Michigan is not shooting does, many many of htier doe tags go unsold. They have learned what increased pressure on does means over time to the herd and are not biting.

Pa soon will have a whole new flock of hunters (abeit smaller) that are going to be turned off to overharvest.

Then a "real" problem may actually arise.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

One of the main reasons PA wants to get a grip on their deer pop. is because in 20 years when PA loses half of its hunters to old age they want to have a pop. that the reduced hunters can work with. Recruitment isn't keeping up with the fallout that is going to happen in the next 20 years. Maybe the PGC should reduce the doe tags for adults but not for 12-18 yr old hunters. Kids aren't going to stay if they aren't allowed to kill any deer. If there is only a 15-20 % success rate for PA buck hunters that means only 1-2 kids out of 10 are going to kill a buck each year and then you don't want them to kill any does. They won't stay in the sport long .

RE: Deer management in PA
 

I know it sounds good and is politically correct to say only the kids are important, but if Uncle Pete gets disgusted and quits then 14 year old nephew billy is probably done too. Just like when we closed our camp last year, once the adults move on to new areas the kids do not enjoy it as much as when they could hunt out of camp. This year we split up and hunted separate farms and the kids did not like it at all. After the first day my coworkers son called it quits and went back to school so he could make basketball practice.

You have to make it decent for kids and for the adults who are the grunt power of the sport to make it all work. With Adults walking away, the kids lose thier connection. Adults are facilitators and important too...

RE: Deer management in PA
 

Understood, and maybe if the PGC caves in this year, to the presure, maybe they can find a way to still let the youth hunters obtain 1-3 does tags and just cut back on the tags for adults. Kids have to be with a parent or a very close friend if they are going to continue hunting, like you said, but they shouldn't be restricted in what they can kill. Kids are smart enough these days they will know if they want to shoot a spike or an 8 point or if they want to take a doe or to. They just have to be given the chance to by the pgc. and lately they've been allowed. Hopefully it will continue even if adults are restricted.

RE: Deer management in PA
 

ABSOLUTELT TRUE!!! yet it's the "adults" who are making the terrible management decisions that's causing all the trouble.........Hmmmmmm

RE: Deer management in PA
 

kids never had a problem staying in the sport before all this "new deer management practice" did they. Wasn't that many years ago in some counties it was near impossible to get a doe tag unless you knew the county treas. yet another reason to scrap the plan an go with smaller WMU reduced anterless tags
HR YUKKKKKK

RE: Deer management in PA
 

The remarkably disturbing drop in youth hunting license sales started before AR/HR.
There are many contributing factors.

Here's a few that come to mind:

Lack of the traditional upland game that many of of us grew up hunting

Those damned video/ computer games!

A drifting away by too many parents. I know way too many hunting parents who just dont interrupt their hunting time to take their kids (this is the worst of all, IMHO)

The unprecedented time demands on kids from other activities IE: organized sports, youth groups, band, school, scouts, etc etc etc

Heres my 12 year olds schedule during the fall....
Monday- Band. Tuesday- Football practice, Wednesday- alternates between bowling club and chess club, Thursday- Scouts, Saturday Morning- Football games

That left us Friday after school and Saturday afternoon for hunting. We need Sunday hunting NOW!

How about an extra youth doe license for that early season. Helps the doe kill when most needed and gets the kids out when the weather is more moderate. And, what the heck, let em shoot their buck if they see one then (after they shhot their doe)!



Here was my