Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
12-18-2004 | 08:24 PM
#31
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
I am almost laughing at the responses that I am reading in this post. I am no biologist or any type of scientist. I am however an avid outdoorsman that is out every season and I can tell you all this.....Coyotes absolutely muckle the deer. They do not only kill the sick, young, and old. They do travel in packs and have an organized method in which they kill. They are not afraid of a mother with fawns.
Coyotes are eating machines. The colder it gets, the more calories they burn, the more they eat. They use strategies, and are very smart. If you want to kill them, not a few here and there, I mean kill em all....read on.
The absolute best method to kill these things, other than trapping, is with a fully choked semi auto shotgun over bait. Not a little bait....alot of bait. To the tune of a few hindred pounds of bait. Bait just before a snowstorm and either clear a tree ( way higher than deer)at least 30ft or set up a shooting house about 40ft away from the bait. (always keep the moon in mind in your set ups) Walk away for a week. When you go back to check your bait, do it from a distance with binos or drive by the bait in your truck, sled, 4 wheeler or whatever. DO NOT walk over to your bait or even close to it. You leave boot tracks and you can forget it. Dont educate em. If its getting hit, wait for the next miserably cold night, and get into position at least 1 hour before dark. Wait em out. DO NOT shoot the first dog or pair that comes in, unless they stop to eat. If they stop to eat, not just smell around, let em have it. Usualy they do what I call a buz- by. One or two will come out, cruise around your position, sniff around, and leave. They are the scouts. Let em leave!!! Within two hours, the whole crew will come back and then you can lite em all up. Most winter family groups are between 4 and 8 animals. Once you light them up, don't leave!!! If you wounded some, the rest will come back even though you just scared the crap out of them. They are VERY family oriented and they help each other.
This is not bull crap....this is years and years of freezing my butt off when any normal person is in front of a fire. If you dont see them, stay. They ALWAYS show up to a bait that they are hitting hard. The hardest part is waiting them out. The only exception is if one starts barking. If this happens, you mine as well pack it up cuz you have been had. I could go on forever on this subject, so I guess now would be a good time to end this post. If anyone has any questions...just ask. I will help anyone with killing these things. I absolutely hate them. They are the devil if you ask me. Just a lttle smarter.
Coyotes are eating machines. The colder it gets, the more calories they burn, the more they eat. They use strategies, and are very smart. If you want to kill them, not a few here and there, I mean kill em all....read on.
The absolute best method to kill these things, other than trapping, is with a fully choked semi auto shotgun over bait. Not a little bait....alot of bait. To the tune of a few hindred pounds of bait. Bait just before a snowstorm and either clear a tree ( way higher than deer)at least 30ft or set up a shooting house about 40ft away from the bait. (always keep the moon in mind in your set ups) Walk away for a week. When you go back to check your bait, do it from a distance with binos or drive by the bait in your truck, sled, 4 wheeler or whatever. DO NOT walk over to your bait or even close to it. You leave boot tracks and you can forget it. Dont educate em. If its getting hit, wait for the next miserably cold night, and get into position at least 1 hour before dark. Wait em out. DO NOT shoot the first dog or pair that comes in, unless they stop to eat. If they stop to eat, not just smell around, let em have it. Usualy they do what I call a buz- by. One or two will come out, cruise around your position, sniff around, and leave. They are the scouts. Let em leave!!! Within two hours, the whole crew will come back and then you can lite em all up. Most winter family groups are between 4 and 8 animals. Once you light them up, don't leave!!! If you wounded some, the rest will come back even though you just scared the crap out of them. They are VERY family oriented and they help each other.
This is not bull crap....this is years and years of freezing my butt off when any normal person is in front of a fire. If you dont see them, stay. They ALWAYS show up to a bait that they are hitting hard. The hardest part is waiting them out. The only exception is if one starts barking. If this happens, you mine as well pack it up cuz you have been had. I could go on forever on this subject, so I guess now would be a good time to end this post. If anyone has any questions...just ask. I will help anyone with killing these things. I absolutely hate them. They are the devil if you ask me. Just a lttle smarter.
12-19-2004 | 12:03 AM
#32
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: Western up state NY in the USA
RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
ORIGINAL: WNY Bowhunter
Fastfire,
I agree with what you say about larger coyote pop. needing lots of food and coyotes preying on the easiest prey they can get and it's true that a newborn fawn is pretty much helpless to the advances of a hungry coyote. Coyotes certainly do take a fair number of fawns throughout the spring / early summer...but the idea of coyotes killing almost every fawn in the woods is ridiculous. Coyote predation on fawns is just nature's way of thinning out the surplus of the fawn crop. That's why does in good habitat usually have twins to compensate for anticipated natural mortality on the fawns. The reason that farmers get so many fawns while chopping hay isn't because the fawns are totally helpless, but rather because a fawns main defense against predators is laying still and allowing their spotted coat to act as camouflauge until the threat passes by. When the farm machinery gets to close the fawns just see it as another predator and usually hold their ground until it's too late to escape. As far a coyotes go, think about it...if coyotes ate all of the fawns every year, the deer pop would crash within a few years and then in turn so would the the coyote pop. I'm beginning to think that alot of folks believe that there are actually more coyotes in the state than there are deer. The rules of nature dictate that there has to be adequate food sources available for a predator pop. to grow and thrive. If coyotes ate mostly deer and the deer pop. was being thinned out too much up to the point that there weren't enough deer around to feed all of the coyotes, then the lack of prey would cause the coyote pop. to suffer as a result.
Like I said earlier: There's no question that coyotes do in fact kill and eat deer...the more deer that are around the more that coyotes will have the opportunity to take, but the diet of a coyote is very similar to that of a fox which is composed mostly of mice and other small mammals. That's why areas that experience a large increase in the coyote pop. usually experience a similar decrease in the fox pop. due to the larger, stronger coyotes outcompeting the foxes for food (I don't think foxes take too many deer). Predator-Prey relationships are very complex cycles with lots of variables.
I don't live too far from you (about 1/2 hour east of Hornell in Steuben County) and I agree that the deer hunting this year sucked over most of the Region. Last year wasn't that great either (2002 was probably the best take I've ever seen around here) and I don't know why...I saw plenty of deer and videoed lots of nice bucks in velvet around the area for the past couple of summers. This year, once bow season got here most of the deer just seemed to vanish. It was really wierd. During gun season we do alot of deer drives and saw tons of tracks and sign but never really got on the deer that made them. Personally, I think that our main problem was that our best hunting land which is about 250 acres of the thickest, nastiest bedding cover in the entire area was put off limits this year (the guy that owns it wanted to make it into a sanctuary for deer)and the deer really stacked in there and never left the security until dark. I think that alot of bucks made it through season this year which it pretty unusually for this area. We should see some really nice 2 and 3 yr. olds and maybe even a few 4 yr. old bucks around next year. I've been out bowhunting for the past few days and there are deer tracks all over the place! We can only hope that things will be better next season. I just think that too many people are jumping the gun and blaming the entire lack of deer sitings on predation from coyotes
Fastfire,
I agree with what you say about larger coyote pop. needing lots of food and coyotes preying on the easiest prey they can get and it's true that a newborn fawn is pretty much helpless to the advances of a hungry coyote. Coyotes certainly do take a fair number of fawns throughout the spring / early summer...but the idea of coyotes killing almost every fawn in the woods is ridiculous. Coyote predation on fawns is just nature's way of thinning out the surplus of the fawn crop. That's why does in good habitat usually have twins to compensate for anticipated natural mortality on the fawns. The reason that farmers get so many fawns while chopping hay isn't because the fawns are totally helpless, but rather because a fawns main defense against predators is laying still and allowing their spotted coat to act as camouflauge until the threat passes by. When the farm machinery gets to close the fawns just see it as another predator and usually hold their ground until it's too late to escape. As far a coyotes go, think about it...if coyotes ate all of the fawns every year, the deer pop would crash within a few years and then in turn so would the the coyote pop. I'm beginning to think that alot of folks believe that there are actually more coyotes in the state than there are deer. The rules of nature dictate that there has to be adequate food sources available for a predator pop. to grow and thrive. If coyotes ate mostly deer and the deer pop. was being thinned out too much up to the point that there weren't enough deer around to feed all of the coyotes, then the lack of prey would cause the coyote pop. to suffer as a result.
Like I said earlier: There's no question that coyotes do in fact kill and eat deer...the more deer that are around the more that coyotes will have the opportunity to take, but the diet of a coyote is very similar to that of a fox which is composed mostly of mice and other small mammals. That's why areas that experience a large increase in the coyote pop. usually experience a similar decrease in the fox pop. due to the larger, stronger coyotes outcompeting the foxes for food (I don't think foxes take too many deer). Predator-Prey relationships are very complex cycles with lots of variables.
I don't live too far from you (about 1/2 hour east of Hornell in Steuben County) and I agree that the deer hunting this year sucked over most of the Region. Last year wasn't that great either (2002 was probably the best take I've ever seen around here) and I don't know why...I saw plenty of deer and videoed lots of nice bucks in velvet around the area for the past couple of summers. This year, once bow season got here most of the deer just seemed to vanish. It was really wierd. During gun season we do alot of deer drives and saw tons of tracks and sign but never really got on the deer that made them. Personally, I think that our main problem was that our best hunting land which is about 250 acres of the thickest, nastiest bedding cover in the entire area was put off limits this year (the guy that owns it wanted to make it into a sanctuary for deer)and the deer really stacked in there and never left the security until dark. I think that alot of bucks made it through season this year which it pretty unusually for this area. We should see some really nice 2 and 3 yr. olds and maybe even a few 4 yr. old bucks around next year. I've been out bowhunting for the past few days and there are deer tracks all over the place! We can only hope that things will be better next season. I just think that too many people are jumping the gun and blaming the entire lack of deer sitings on predation from coyotes
do with it than you would think.
I have been on stand during bow & had deer go by on fire and with in a flash here is mr. yout in hot persuit.
Worst part is this is in broad day light no where near dark.
I agree that this was a weird year lots of deer seen till opening of bow then less an less seen then opening of shotgun all most no deer.
12-19-2004 | 10:40 AM
#33
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 773
Likes: 0
From: Caledonia, NY
RE: Coyotes can't keep the deer population down?
ORIGINAL: fastfire
Must be you don't spend a lot of time in the outdoors or your is in
it's own little world.
Think about this!!!!!!
As yout population grows so does the need for food- fact.
Youts will take the easiest meal it can get - fact.
A new born fawn is a very easy meal-fact.
A new born to 2 mounths old are an easy meal for a yout
and mom will leave them for a short time & if you don't belive that ask a farmer how many fawns he has run tru his haybind or almost has.
I'm not blaming youts for all the deer herd problems but in my area
as the yout population got bigger over the years the deer herd seemed to shrink.
There may be other reasons for it but over hunting in my area is not one of them.
ORIGINAL: Phade
The idea of coyotes affecting deer numbers to the point of humans raising an eyebrow on it is complete BS. As mentioned earlier, the diet of a coyote varies by season. At a few points, yotes may go after deer, but it has to be in the right circumstances. Some include:
Heavy snowfall creating poor foraging of non meat food, and other small game for yotes making them hungry, plus the effect of it on deer (poor food conditions making deer stressed and weak, suprisingly, deer are very manuverable in snow due to their design)
Fawn drop and early fawn growth. Obviously this takes place, but it is nature at it's finest.
And if any hardships result, then yotes make do some bambi hunting.
Coyotes much prefer smaller game that wagers less danger to them despite pack orientation. I am sure you would rather go punch a 5 ft 145 pound guy in the face than a 6' 5" 325lb offensive lineman. Same principle, coyotes do not want to get the snot kicked out of them.
Also, coyotes prefer the small game due to their ability to hunt it. Ask a farmer in farm country, you'd be suprised to find out how coyotes often follow farm machinery in the field. This is because the machinery disturbs small game and flushes them out creating predatory oppotunities. I have two pics of coyotes on my game cam this year, and it coincided with the harvesting of the corn field around the woodlot.
Until a legit experiment with established and confirmed data has been released by different organizations offering a consensus, coyotes having a sever impact is only BS based on rumors.
ORIGINAL: White_Farm
Woodchucks? Rabbits? What are those? I haven't seen any since I started hearing coyotes howling at night 5-6 years ago. Also used to see 30+ turkeys at a time, several different groups of them. Now I see the same group of 12 every couple weeks. And we haven't had any real bad winters the past few years. Heck were halfway through December and I haven't seen anything more than a dusting of snow so far.
Also, I would assume if there was a disease taking out large numbers of deer in NY we'd have heard about it correct?
Tim
ORIGINAL: WNY Bowhunter
You gotta stop and think that coyotes are not strictly venison craving carnivores and most of their diet consists of small mammals such as woodchucks, rabbits and lots of mice and carrion that they come across. The only realistic things that I can think of that can cause a serious decrease in the deer herd over a large area to such a degree would be a disease (such as EHD or blue tongue) and the harvasting of really large numbers of does by hunters.
You gotta stop and think that coyotes are not strictly venison craving carnivores and most of their diet consists of small mammals such as woodchucks, rabbits and lots of mice and carrion that they come across. The only realistic things that I can think of that can cause a serious decrease in the deer herd over a large area to such a degree would be a disease (such as EHD or blue tongue) and the harvasting of really large numbers of does by hunters.
Also, I would assume if there was a disease taking out large numbers of deer in NY we'd have heard about it correct?
Tim
Heavy snowfall creating poor foraging of non meat food, and other small game for yotes making them hungry, plus the effect of it on deer (poor food conditions making deer stressed and weak, suprisingly, deer are very manuverable in snow due to their design)
Fawn drop and early fawn growth. Obviously this takes place, but it is nature at it's finest.
And if any hardships result, then yotes make do some bambi hunting.
Coyotes much prefer smaller game that wagers less danger to them despite pack orientation. I am sure you would rather go punch a 5 ft 145 pound guy in the face than a 6' 5" 325lb offensive lineman. Same principle, coyotes do not want to get the snot kicked out of them.
Also, coyotes prefer the small game due to their ability to hunt it. Ask a farmer in farm country, you'd be suprised to find out how coyotes often follow farm machinery in the field. This is because the machinery disturbs small game and flushes them out creating predatory oppotunities. I have two pics of coyotes on my game cam this year, and it coincided with the harvesting of the corn field around the woodlot.
Until a legit experiment with established and confirmed data has been released by different organizations offering a consensus, coyotes having a sever impact is only BS based on rumors.
Must be you don't spend a lot of time in the outdoors or your is in
it's own little world.
Think about this!!!!!!
As yout population grows so does the need for food- fact.
Youts will take the easiest meal it can get - fact.
A new born fawn is a very easy meal-fact.
A new born to 2 mounths old are an easy meal for a yout
and mom will leave them for a short time & if you don't belive that ask a farmer how many fawns he has run tru his haybind or almost has.
I'm not blaming youts for all the deer herd problems but in my area
as the yout population got bigger over the years the deer herd seemed to shrink.
There may be other reasons for it but over hunting in my area is not one of them.
PS. Any knowledgeable outdoorsman would know what was already explained.....Fawns hide because it is their only defense to predation...hence the common occurences of fawns becoming bales of hay.
