PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Okay guys, lets reach a final solution here as some of these posts are going to hell in a hand-basket!

First, we don't need the personal attacks on each other such as the attack on Rybohunter, we are all hunters here and we need to remember that!

Second, lets all agree that complaining on the internet isn't going to do a thing. Instead of spending hours reading and writing on here, get letters started to the guys in charge. Some may be doing this, but a majority aren't.

Third, lets agree to dis-agree on certain points!


I hunt in an area that has a high deer population, I am not going to deny that. This land is mostly cornfields with broken wood lots and the average buck in this area is typically larger than other areas in the state. I will continue to buy and fill doe tags in this area as it is working here. Now, if it isn't working for you guys in different areas, do something about it. Stop shooting does if the population really is getting too low! Let the PGC and anyone/everyone that you can know what you think. It just hit me that the BIGGEST problem here is that guys aren't looking at the whole picture, and I will admit that I wasn't entirely looking at the whole picture. We get so wrapped up in what is going on in our hunting area that we forget about the other areas. I am not going to tell you guys that the deer populations in your area are fine because I don't know, but I also expect that you guys won't ridicule me for still harvesting does in my area!

We can sit here and chew each other out for days/weeks/months, but the fact is that it isn't going to change anything. Do what you need to do in your area and I will do what I need to do.

One thing that I think we all need to do is be more understanding of others situations (yes, this includes me).

So, to you guys who aren't seeing nearly as many deer as you feel you should, do something about it and good luck with it. I wish you nothing but the best. I will be out in my hunting area tyring to kill another doe because the population is still high and we still have room for improvement.

Finally, lets all remember that there are things that we can do to improve the habitat. If you own property in an area that is less than perfect for deer, plant a food plot. Do whatever you can do to help the herd as we are the true care-takers of the deer!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

BM,
You need to get a grip. Come down off your private land pedistal and look at the situation from a public land hunter. You're not that high and mighty.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

T_in_PA2,

Who needs to get a grip. I hunt private land. How does that make me high and mighty? Lucky, yes, but high and mighty no! Maybe you should go back and read some of my threads over the past several years. I know what happens on public land, especially considering one of my favorite hunting grounds borders state game lands. They get over-pressured and the hunting is tough!

Some comments on this site amaze me. Guys are getting blasted for filling more than one tag a year, guys are getting blasted because they hunt private property?

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I wonder how you can get through a door with your head so big BM....

You preaching to others about how to post when you started the thread "pa hunters complain too much" ?????? What a joke.

You may have a wonderfull place to hunt. Maybe it is near your home where you are lucky to have good deer numbers. We all know that there are some Pa wmu's that are still twice thier DD goals and maybe you are in one of them.... but we also know that there are some pa hunters who are not seeing a ton of deer and are experienceing some less than optimum hunting. Lower sightings and lower harvests.

Pa dropped from 203,000 to 165,000 to 142,000 to this years mediocre harvest and some of those hunters who are not seeing much ( and many after moving to new areas 2-3 years now) have every right to voice thier concerns.

You definitely do need to come down off that high horse and walk a mile in the shoes of some other hunters before you go telling them what they can and cannot post about deer season.

We are happy for your success, the least you could do is show some empathy for those who are experiencing a down turn.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

As far as Private land goes, All bucks shot on Private lands that are entered in the record book should be removed, It is not fair to everyone else being compaired. They do this with Fishing, a Record Steelhead was caught last year, but did not qualify for the books because it wasn't caught on a stretch of stream that everyone had the oppertoonity to fish.
Does someone setting in a heated treehouse, harvesting a big buck that stood still long enough for the "hunter" to open his window and get a shot, and didn't spook because of the smell of gasoline, because of the lazy hunter, parking their 4wheeler too close to their stand, deserve any kind of record??? I think not.
their should be 5 differnet record catagorys.
1 State or public land Bucks
2 Archery or ML bucks
3 Private land Bucks
4 private land Archery or ML.
5 And all catagorys with a cut off point of the AR, theirs alot more nicer racks being taken now, so how is that fair to those who took quality bucks when they were hard to come by.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I will hunt with you Buck Magnet.It is a little late for this year.But I could still get a doe tag for your area though.they always keep some around for us disabled veterans. Next year maybe.Dont have the money to travel out there this year

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I see some contradiction in this statement right here

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

OK, Bucky, let's all cut us some slack here. You're a young man, judging by your picture, and have a ways to grow. Most of the problems stem from hunters in your area or situation telling the rest of us we must be lousy hunters, get away from the road, etc and etc. You have a good spot, in a good WMU, but if Dr Alt continues, it won't last. Enjoy it while you can, and good luck hunting the rest of the year.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I'm not the type to sling mud at another hunter for what he does or does not believe in. As for anybody assuming that those of us who aren't seeing deer aren't looking hard enough or don't know what we are doing, that's pointing fingers and slinging mud in every direction. I hunt deep in a valley between two mountains where the terrain is rocky and the brush is thick. If I do get lucky enough to harvest a deer, I have a mile of up hill drag and I'm not talking about a steady up hill drag neither, no sir, it's basically straight up.............. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, I hunt hard, scout hard, and I live where I hunt. I guess I just don't know what I'm doing.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

chickory,

I really do feel for the guys that aren't seeing as many deer as they should be, thats why I feel they should do something. My post "PA hunters complain too much" is about the guys who will do nothing but complain, yet they aren't willing to try and do anything about the situation. I see it all the time. It seems a little counter-productive for me to see guys waisting energy on complaining to guys that can't change anything. Like I said, these guys need to get up and let the PGC know whats on there minds!

boozer,

Your comment "All bucks shot on Private lands that are entered in the record book should be removed" is just ridiculous. When I talk about private land, I am not talking about game farms, I am talking about guys who own there own property or who hunt property that others own and they have permission. Saying that only public land deer should be enetered in the bucks is just crazy.

Cardeer,

Like I have said for the past several years, you are always welcome here. The ground blind is still waiting for you :D

thecontractor,

Where is the contradiction in that statement? The land is mostly broken woodlots and our deer population is still high. In the past years though it has began to get more in check and things are looking better!

MikeE51848 and thecontractor,

I have not told any guys on here that they are lazy hunters. I have said that it is getting harder to kill bucks because the average age of legal bucks is now 2.5 and these deer have been through a season and learned a few tricks. I am not one of the guys saying that you need to get as far from roads as possible, if I did say that, I would be contradiciting myself as my prime hunting spot is located between a prison and a airport! I can't tell you guys how to hunt as I havn't been in your shoes. If you guys are out there doing all that you can and you aren't seeing the deer numbers you should, get envolved and let your opinions be heard!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Would you still buy/fill those tags if your freezer is full ? Here in NJ , we are fighting just to save our seasons since the Antis & tree huggers have the commish of the game coucil in their backpocket. Maybe your PA doe herd is hurting because too many guys shoot does just to "kill" something. I'm actually glad they changed the regs this yr in Jersey to only bucks for 6 day firearm. Last year it was unlimited does and I saw clubs with sometimes 15-20 does outta one area , this is not good. If your freezer is full dont shoot just to "kill" something. Wait till next season.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

slugman: well said. I too have said if anyone is killing any game animal after they have all the meat they can use THAT IS WRONG.
what ever happened to one of the very basic rules of fair chase? (Kill only what you can use and leave the rest)
The guys that fish have figured this out years ago with "catch and release " , now as we can't very well breath life back into something that is harvested the next thing to do is just not kill it to begin with. If some guys just gotta be out there in deer season after they have killed what they need why not PROVE what a sportsman/woman you truely are an volunteer to take a neighborhood kid out while you leave you weapons at home,or visit a senior center and offer to take a senior hunting.
I have no respect for anyone whom will just keep killing cause they love the sport after the freezers are full.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Another good post BM, guess you'll never please/reason with some people.

FYI - you can never have enough meat in the freezer and if you do you can always donate it to the needy (at least in NY)

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

even when its full ? What you just buy another freezer ?

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Doughboy; comments like you can never have enough meat in the freezer, give ALL hunters a black eye.
Just stop an think how that sounds to a non hunter! FYI it reads GREEDY TRIGGER HAPPY KILLER

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

there is a tract of state game lands out here in pike county in north east PA that is almost 12,000 acres....yes it's hunted hard and yes it's hard to see deer at times....when i got my buck this year in bow season it was the one of maybe 10 deer i have seen on game lands this year in that area....and yes with it being bow season there wasn't alot of guys in the woods but that doesn't mean alot either with something this big in acres and no food plots so you can't pattern the deer like on farm land....i only hunt public land as i don't know anyone who has good land so to speak....and i'm sure out here in pike co there's alot of deer still cause when i go to work at 10:00 pm i just bout hit 2 deer a week going to and from work and that's a low avg....and the comment bout keep shooting deer after the freezer is full must know guys with a small freezer....i have a 5.0 cu foot freezer that is the height of a office frig that will hold 6 deer....and have never filled it yet....last year with 4 deer it was still half empty....and if i have doe tags still after my freezer happens to get full i know lots of people that will take the deer and will be greatful for me doing that for them....and i will keep going out hunting cause i like the outdoors and the feeling WE ALL get being out there....i think we all feel....if i don't "KILL A DEER" oh well but i enjoyed myself out there while i still can....and if your one who complains bout not seeing deer when you go out there well i think your one who has to kill something each and every time you go out into the woods....i've gone a whole week without seeing something to kill in one's mind but haven't gone on any forum and vented bout not seeing anything....well i've said enough and to those who are in the same mindset as me will understand what i've just said....everyone have a marry christmass and a happy new year..............bob

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

This is all rediculous and depressing!!!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

slugman and ulysses,

When I talk about filling more than one tag, I don't mean shooting deer just to shoot them and waste the meat. This year, the only meat I kept from my doe was one back-strap. The rest went to my aunt and uncle who aren't too well set financially. They are both disabled (my uncle has black lung and severe arthritis in his kness, my aunt had cancer, and has a list of other health problems). They both don't work and they struggle to make it year in and year out. The extra deer meat that I give them goes a long way! Every bit of the deer gets eatten and goes to people who need the meat more than I do. I'll tell you flat out that I love going out chasing deer, and even though I don't keep as much meat, I still love venision, but I know that the meat I give them means more to them than it would for me!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

you need to take a pill an relax. I have personally never been able to get "enough" meat to fill my frezzer, therfore never had enough. My point is, I can use all the venison I can ever shoot with the tags I get. whether that is one deer, 2, 3 ,4, maybe even 5 (the most I have ever gotten is 2-3). I can eat it and enjoy it all the time, I can share with my family and friends. So if I use all the deer I shoot (oh, and all with single shot kills) am I still "a greedy, trigger happy hunter" If I give hunters a bad name for that then I guess that is the case. Maybe you might want to look at all the posts you been throwing out - b*tchin and complaining, bashing other individuals, calling names, pointing fingers, etc. and ask yourself, who is actually giving hunters a "black eye".

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

doughboy IMHO Alt is giving all hunters a black eye,many people don't hunt but enjoy watching deer thruy spotlighting,country drives with the kids etc., when they see a sharp down turn in numbers theyattribute that to "greedy hunters,A.K.A. Slobs" killing them off .
take what you can use and let the rest go free. That is an always has been part of FAIR CHASE HUNTING

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

ulysses,
That may be the case for non-hunting public where you are, but around here people know I hunt and tell me to shoot all them (blankety blanks). They don't like the deer at all. They drive in constant worry of hitting deer, and several people have hit more than one deer in the past year. The deer come into residential areas and eat expensive landscaping. Believe me a guy that shoots 4-5 deer around here is thanked, not persecuted. The most important thing to understand is that circumstances and views can be VERY different from area to area.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I'm in Buck Magnets shoes here. I am fortunate enough to hunt on private ground and routinely see 20-30 deer a day most of the time. We have a doe problem and thanks to state corrections ground around us holding a doe season each year, they help tremendously.

But, I am concerned for the rest of the state that don't have my opportunity. There are a lot of deer being killed out there. I mean a lot! I will definitly not sit here and tell others they aren't good hunters and are not hunting hard enough. Some of the best hunters I know hunt public ground quite successfully. I think thinning the doe population was needed in a vast majority of the state, but not everywhere. I think they need to micromanage the state a lot better than they are.

I agree mostly with what Alt is trying to accomplish, but not entirely. I work at Penn State and I think I might take drive over to the deer research area and talk to some of the bioligists there to get a better feel of what their thoughts are on what is happening. Maybe I'll be enlightened.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

With the exception of a very few posts muzzyman88 has the best idea I've heard. Talk to a biologist. Most if not all of these guys I've ever talked to are totaly dedicated to wildlife and habitat preservation not some suspect motive by Alt and every other private,state or federal agency. I've probably learned more from these guys than I have in 30+ yrs of actual Deer hunting.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Let us know what they think/say.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

AJ52, I actually have a two motives while I'm there...:D To see what I can learn from them about the deer themselves and to get their thoughts on what Alt and company are doing. Something tells me they are going to agree mostly with Alt on everything as Alt is a bioligist himself.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Talk to a biologist ?naw I've learned plenty by working my land day in and day out for 60 yrs. Those biologist boys must know more than me about the animals on my land and the habitat to support those animals here. Heck I'm sure they've read all the statistics compiled on deer in Hector Twsp, Potter co. then came out themselves to verify those same statistics maybe even done a fancy pellet count. I must have been in the barn when they visited this twsp. of course all my neighbors must have been in their's too cause none of us ever saw a single biologist set foot in Hector Twsp.
Yahoo Biologist boys Hector twsp is in 3A just drive on up Rt6 to Westpike then turn off on the Ulysses- Lock Mills rd you'll find it easy enough...oops I forgot you've been there with Alt, RIGHT???????

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

well, i guess nobody is right except you. obviously no one has any good input that can help you or even has an alternate view that you can, at least, respect or agree to disagree.

so my question is: Why do you even bother coming to the Board??

oh, that's right - to bash on Alt and his plan (and others on the Forum)

PS - whatever you may think, as AJ stated, most biologist are very knowledgeable and committed to their job and helping wildlife. they may have to work on generallities at times and no, they can't visit everyones farm (I doubt they would want to visit you anyway), but they do their level best to manage the deer herd

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

doughboy I come here for the same reason you do. never claimed those biologist boys don't love thier jobs but I do claim if they are responsible for a WMU then they should be there and at the very least have a look for themselves.
I have yet to hear anyone give a good reason why we went from 29DSM to so few today while the habitat remained the same or IMPROVED in the last 30 yrs in the same area. There is more timbering going on now and the last 5 yrs in 3A than at anytime in the last 30 yrs. when do deer herds prosper the best??? right after timbering ,hmmmmm isn't it odd that Alt says the habitat can't support them now? When one of those biologist boys of yours can give a good answer to that then I'll shut up! Till then you're stuck with my opinions as I'm with yours
This all takes place when the PGC acknowledges over crowding of hunters on public land an pleads with landowners to leave their lands unposted. I can tell you this MOST of 3A is now posted because of this and it is the first year it has EVER BEEN. doesn't that tell you alittle about how the landownerSSSS feel???? It SHOULD!!!!!!!!!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

muzzyman,

When you talk to those bio guys at Penn State,get a couple to the local pub. Feed em a few brewskees(truth serum). That will bring out the true story.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Truth syrup....:D

One of the bioligist over there is a freind of a guy I work with. He's going to make arangements with him for us to get together to shoot the breeze. I'd be interested to see what their thoughts on the massive doe slaughter we are undergoing.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I spose that since you been walkin around in the same body for all those years you would best know how to perfom heart surgery on yourself if you needed it to eh? Talk to a Doctor? Naw

Both statements make about as much sense.

I'll stick with the professionals.

Buck Magnet,
Good to see you back on here! Don't let these old Curmudgeons spoil your enthusiasm. We need more folks your age who care as much as you do;)

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

naw I don't need no stinking biologist to tell me about the land I have made my living on raiseing crops and animals for 60+ years that's for certain. I am certainly better suited to tell if the habitat will support more deer or not than an arm chair biologist in an office in Harrisburg.
and that is no different than if I had been a heart surgeon for 60 yrs I sure wouldn't need another one to tell me if I was without a heart.

The fact remains that my land is now posted as well as all my neighbors' land too. A direct result of Alt's deer management style. Who is the biggest loser me or the people that hunted all fall on these 3000 acres an now can't. We all decided to stop buying back tags till the PGC does something about this Alt mess too. Heck we didn't need them to start with anyway an only bought them to help pay for some deer management. but we're done supporting this quackery!!!!! Up here in 3A most locals will do anything we can to derail Alt's plan ( read into that what you like) if the horn hunter an doe killers in other WMU what to be happy seeing 3 or 4 deer a week fine for you but we up here are happy with just 1 deer a year sometimes 2. An we havekilled our share of true big bucks over the years. It will only get better again now that we have very limited family access to 3000 acres.
all this cause Alt wasn't happy with just antler restrictions ( we don't have a problem with them) he had to kill off too many doe too!!!!!!!

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Since you are a farmer maybe you can answer this question. How many acres of crops does it take to support 100 head of beef or dairy cattle? How many deer would the same amount of land support if it was left in hay fields without any crops being planted comapred to the same amount of land in the pole timber stage?

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

#1 depending on what you planted, you need to diversify #2 deer really don't eat much "hay" they do eat greens high in protein with are mainly legumes growing among the hay. i.e. you could plant enough Dutch/Ladino clover mix along with trefoil and vetch on 100 ares provided you had adaquate browse to feed 37.5deer/year but you would need to have rotated plots to keep new growth available 24/7 365 days/yr #3 pole stage timber is not good deer habitat new growth timber is and 1-5 yr old modern select cutting with 30% mast crop producers mixed in the best.
'Course I ain't no fancy biologist boy in Harrisburg I'm only a dumb hick that must either produce crops to convert to cash or starve

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I've talked to friends in this area that hunt PA. They've had nothing but good things to say and two of them came back with bucks in the 110-120class. Doe numbers were also discusses and they mentioned a noticeable difference ie; "no more 60 doe days." and the such.... Nothing about the claims some here have been speaking about. I have a question that deserves a truthful answer without lashing back (I’m seeing too much of this and it’s ridiculous.) To everyone that is not happy with what they are seeing in the PA woods. Were you for or against Alts plan when first implemented?

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

I was an absolute Alt Supporter. I went to hear him speak twice once in the local high school gym and the following year I took my Uncle...

In our camp I was the on who said to all the other guys that he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But in hearing him speak he never mentioned herd reductions outright. He always just said "we need to look at the habitat". Hey, I was all for improving habitat in pa. Which projects was he speaking of?? Over time I found out that he was not going to do any habitat imrovement projects, and our new game commissioner Roxane Palone initiated the vote to abolish Pa's on citizens committee the game commission had. Saying it "was not needed". ??

No improvements in habitat were part of the plan, just Herd reductions with AR as the carrot to get hunters to do what they normally would not do.

I knew once questons trickled out of the PGC stage show that we were being misled. They said by taking more does we would see a huge jump in breeding in Pa, made sense until I found out from Dr. Rosenberry that we already breed 90% of all does and 25% of the fawns in pa prior to AR, and we would lose deer numbers not gain because through herd redcutions we would never ever ever make up for the slight pop in breeding.

doing the math over several years we were seeing that 90% of what Gary was saying was gross misleading. He said no tree has grown in 50 years north of Rt 80. - a lie.

He said we would have better hunting. We do not.

he said it would jump start habitat immediatey. It did not.

He said sportsman overwhelmingly support herd reductions. They do not.

He would never stand up and tell where he and the PGC got thier cash donations from to do studies to justify HR. The Fawn study, the antlered deer study, and the hunter movement study where all financed through private donations through a straw donor (audubon).

He did not divulge in any of his early presentations that Forest Re-certification and the timber industry was a major friver in Pa game managment until pressed by reporters and writers until 2004. Years after he should have.

He did not let on about the deals he was making with DCNR in back room deals to cut the herd well beyond what hunters had been led to believe. His plan with no numbers and no time-line initially.
We were stunned to find out he wanted an avereage of 12 dpsm OW in pa. Within huge bloated WMU's with over a million doe tags!!


He said, like a used car salesman, whatever he thought people wanted to hear. Not the truth. And I fell for it hook line and sinker, until I learned more of the details over time of how it would not add up to "more and bigger bucks" and would not be "better hunting".

Gary's whole dog and pony show could have been wrapped up in 6 words. And he spoke them in Jan 2004 at the PGC meeting.

" get used to seeing less deer"

...a far cry from what he was promising in 2001.


Today we see the results, as many posters now see what less deer provides in the way of hunting. And hunters now realize we aren't getting better hunting for our sacrifices and restrictions. YOU may think we do (because of the word of two buddies? Puhhhleease) , but the majority of hunters now TODAY in pa who experienced it do not.

But there are a few yet left in pa who do not wnat to admit they were punk'd.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

Thanks for the reply!. So you are saying that 1 SM of mixed wooodlots and crops could support about 240 DPSM if the area was managed to produce deer, not crops. Now ,some may say that is impossible , but studies have shown that in Valley Forge Park there are around 158 DPSM and the area is completely overbrowsed and there are no farm crops. But, at the same time the PGC says the habitat in 5 C and 5 B can only support 5-6 DPSM. Obviously , the PGC is wrong and admit they are wrong , but they stilll manage the herd based on the outdated OWDD goals.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!
 

deadeer: please go back and reread my post I needed to edit it not 375 but 37.5 I missed a decimal point. At 37.5 the land will support a quality and healthy herd.
Valley forge & Gettesburg are prime examples of what the land can tolerate but the herd will be of poor quality.

RE: PA Hunters FINAL solution!