Truth syrup....

One of the bioligist over there is a freind of a guy I work with. He's going to make arangements with him for us to get together to shoot the breeze. I'd be interested to see what their thoughts on the massive doe slaughter we are undergoing.

I spose that since you been walkin around in the same body for all those years you would best know how to perfom heart surgery on yourself if you needed it to eh? Talk to a Doctor? Naw

Both statements make about as much sense.

I'll stick with the professionals.

Buck Magnet,
Good to see you back on here! Don't let these old Curmudgeons spoil your enthusiasm. We need more folks your age who care as much as you do

naw I don't need no stinking biologist to tell me about the land I have made my living on raiseing crops and animals for 60+ years that's for certain. I am certainly better suited to tell if the habitat will support more deer or not than an arm chair biologist in an office in Harrisburg.
and that is no different than if I had been a heart surgeon for 60 yrs I sure wouldn't need another one to tell me if I was without a heart.

The fact remains that my land is now posted as well as all my neighbors' land too. A direct result of Alt's deer management style. Who is the biggest loser me or the people that hunted all fall on these 3000 acres an now can't. We all decided to stop buying back tags till the PGC does something about this Alt mess too. Heck we didn't need them to start with anyway an only bought them to help pay for some deer management. but we're done supporting this quackery!!!!! Up here in 3A most locals will do anything we can to derail Alt's plan ( read into that what you like) if the horn hunter an doe killers in other WMU what to be happy seeing 3 or 4 deer a week fine for you but we up here are happy with just 1 deer a year sometimes 2. An we havekilled our share of true big bucks over the years. It will only get better again now that we have very limited family access to 3000 acres.
all this cause Alt wasn't happy with just antler restrictions ( we don't have a problem with them) he had to kill off too many doe too!!!!!!!

Since you are a farmer maybe you can answer this question. How many acres of crops does it take to support 100 head of beef or dairy cattle? How many deer would the same amount of land support if it was left in hay fields without any crops being planted comapred to the same amount of land in the pole timber stage?

#1 depending on what you planted, you need to diversify #2 deer really don't eat much "hay" they do eat greens high in protein with are mainly legumes growing among the hay. i.e. you could plant enough Dutch/Ladino clover mix along with trefoil and vetch on 100 ares provided you had adaquate browse to feed 37.5deer/year but you would need to have rotated plots to keep new growth available 24/7 365 days/yr #3 pole stage timber is not good deer habitat new growth timber is and 1-5 yr old modern select cutting with 30% mast crop producers mixed in the best.
'Course I ain't no fancy biologist boy in Harrisburg I'm only a dumb hick that must either produce crops to convert to cash or starve

I've talked to friends in this area that hunt PA. They've had nothing but good things to say and two of them came back with bucks in the 110-120class. Doe numbers were also discusses and they mentioned a noticeable difference ie; "no more 60 doe days." and the such.... Nothing about the claims some here have been speaking about. I have a question that deserves a truthful answer without lashing back (I’m seeing too much of this and it’s ridiculous.) To everyone that is not happy with what they are seeing in the PA woods. Were you for or against Alts plan when first implemented?

I was an absolute Alt Supporter. I went to hear him speak twice once in the local high school gym and the following year I took my Uncle...

In our camp I was the on who said to all the other guys that he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But in hearing him speak he never mentioned herd reductions outright. He always just said "we need to look at the habitat". Hey, I was all for improving habitat in pa. Which projects was he speaking of?? Over time I found out that he was not going to do any habitat imrovement projects, and our new game commissioner Roxane Palone initiated the vote to abolish Pa's on citizens committee the game commission had. Saying it "was not needed". ??

No improvements in habitat were part of the plan, just Herd reductions with AR as the carrot to get hunters to do what they normally would not do.

I knew once questons trickled out of the PGC stage show that we were being misled. They said by taking more does we would see a huge jump in breeding in Pa, made sense until I found out from Dr. Rosenberry that we already breed 90% of all does and 25% of the fawns in pa prior to AR, and we would lose deer numbers not gain because through herd redcutions we would never ever ever make up for the slight pop in breeding.

doing the math over several years we were seeing that 90% of what Gary was saying was gross misleading. He said no tree has grown in 50 years north of Rt 80. - a lie.

He said we would have better hunting. We do not.

he said it would jump start habitat immediatey. It did not.

He said sportsman overwhelmingly support herd reductions. They do not.

He would never stand up and tell where he and the PGC got thier cash donations from to do studies to justify HR. The Fawn study, the antlered deer study, and the hunter movement study where all financed through private donations through a straw donor (audubon).

He did not divulge in any of his early presentations that Forest Re-certification and the timber industry was a major friver in Pa game managment until pressed by reporters and writers until 2004. Years after he should have.

He did not let on about the deals he was making with DCNR in back room deals to cut the herd well beyond what hunters had been led to believe. His plan with no numbers and no time-line initially.
We were stunned to find out he wanted an avereage of 12 dpsm OW in pa. Within huge bloated WMU's with over a million doe tags!!


He said, like a used car salesman, whatever he thought people wanted to hear. Not the truth. And I fell for it hook line and sinker, until I learned more of the details over time of how it would not add up to "more and bigger bucks" and would not be "better hunting".

Gary's whole dog and pony show could have been wrapped up in 6 words. And he spoke them in Jan 2004 at the PGC meeting.

" get used to seeing less deer"

...a far cry from what he was promising in 2001.


Today we see the results, as many posters now see what less deer provides in the way of hunting. And hunters now realize we aren't getting better hunting for our sacrifices and restrictions. YOU may think we do (because of the word of two buddies? Puhhhleease) , but the majority of hunters now TODAY in pa who experienced it do not.

But there are a few yet left in pa who do not wnat to admit they were punk'd.

Thanks for the reply!. So you are saying that 1 SM of mixed wooodlots and crops could support about 240 DPSM if the area was managed to produce deer, not crops. Now ,some may say that is impossible , but studies have shown that in Valley Forge Park there are around 158 DPSM and the area is completely overbrowsed and there are no farm crops. But, at the same time the PGC says the habitat in 5 C and 5 B can only support 5-6 DPSM. Obviously , the PGC is wrong and admit they are wrong , but they stilll manage the herd based on the outdated OWDD goals.

deadeer: please go back and reread my post I needed to edit it not 375 but 37.5 I missed a decimal point. At 37.5 the land will support a quality and healthy herd.
Valley forge & Gettesburg are prime examples of what the land can tolerate but the herd will be of poor quality.