Pa. deer hunting BAD????
11-09-2004, 06:07 AM
#51
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
The thread is "pa hunting bad"?
Not 'will we get sunday hunting'.
And there were no Mountian Kitties shot in Harrisburg two years ago, nice troll, but not true.
As for the subject of the thread, I already posted my views...but as every day goes by it is becoming more and more obvious that the season is not what folks expected it to be so far. A fabulous summer, had vegetation growing wonderfully. Last year they said we did not harvest the buck because of wind and snow, well that should mean then there are some extras out here this year....yet archers are not reporting very many buck taken??????? hmmmmmmm....
I think we are going to experience a bit of the smaller herd the PGC was talking about, but now claims was never reduced and is bigger than ever.
And they will look silly come January when their "bigger than ever herd" produces a less than average harvest. But then again they have very little credibility left, so whats there to lose....?
Not 'will we get sunday hunting'.
And there were no Mountian Kitties shot in Harrisburg two years ago, nice troll, but not true.
As for the subject of the thread, I already posted my views...but as every day goes by it is becoming more and more obvious that the season is not what folks expected it to be so far. A fabulous summer, had vegetation growing wonderfully. Last year they said we did not harvest the buck because of wind and snow, well that should mean then there are some extras out here this year....yet archers are not reporting very many buck taken??????? hmmmmmmm....
I think we are going to experience a bit of the smaller herd the PGC was talking about, but now claims was never reduced and is bigger than ever.
And they will look silly come January when their "bigger than ever herd" produces a less than average harvest. But then again they have very little credibility left, so whats there to lose....?
11-09-2004, 04:14 PM
#53
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 79
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
I FIGURED YOU GUYS WOULD HAVE SOME LAUGHS ABOUT THE HARRISBURG "LION".
FIRST OF ALL, I'M HAVING A VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING ANYTHING THE PGC HAS TO SAY, INCLUDING THE "BEST HERD EVER".
SECOND OF ALL, IF ANY MOUNTAIN LION WAS ACTUALLY EVER SHOT NEAR HARRISBURG, I STILL DON'T THINK YOU WOULD HAVE ANY "TAKERS".
CHICKORY, I AGREE THAT THE PGC IS GOING TO LOOK PRETTY STUPID THIS TIME NEXT YEAR. I LIVE JUST THIS SIDE OF 62 SOUTH (IN 3 POINT LAND) AND LITERALLY IF I STEP ACROSS THE STREET, IT'S 4 POINT LAND. THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED THERE WHOLE LIFE ON THE "OTHER SIDE" ARE PRETTY PISSED, ESPECIALLY THE FARMERS WHO ARE KIND ENOUGH TO LET HUNTERS ON THEIR PROPERTY.
AND JUST FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, AM I SUPPOSED TO ASK ONLY QUESTIONS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE CURRENT THREAD, OR START A BRAND NEW ONE FOR 1 QUESTION?
FIRST OF ALL, I'M HAVING A VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING ANYTHING THE PGC HAS TO SAY, INCLUDING THE "BEST HERD EVER".
SECOND OF ALL, IF ANY MOUNTAIN LION WAS ACTUALLY EVER SHOT NEAR HARRISBURG, I STILL DON'T THINK YOU WOULD HAVE ANY "TAKERS".
CHICKORY, I AGREE THAT THE PGC IS GOING TO LOOK PRETTY STUPID THIS TIME NEXT YEAR. I LIVE JUST THIS SIDE OF 62 SOUTH (IN 3 POINT LAND) AND LITERALLY IF I STEP ACROSS THE STREET, IT'S 4 POINT LAND. THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED THERE WHOLE LIFE ON THE "OTHER SIDE" ARE PRETTY PISSED, ESPECIALLY THE FARMERS WHO ARE KIND ENOUGH TO LET HUNTERS ON THEIR PROPERTY.
AND JUST FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, AM I SUPPOSED TO ASK ONLY QUESTIONS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE CURRENT THREAD, OR START A BRAND NEW ONE FOR 1 QUESTION?
11-09-2004, 06:07 PM
#54
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
You an do anything you like here.....except type in all caps and talk about Mt Lions.
Typing in all caps is a internet faux pas, and we all know you don't want to be yelling at people. We can hear you just fine.
You may want to start a separate thread if you are wanting to discuss Sunday hunting. It's contentious, and is something that will not be settled on an internet message board. But you can always share you desire for or against it in a new thread. Run it up the flag pole, and see if the cat licks it up!
The unique thing about a thread like "Pa hunting bad????" is that it shows some surprise on the part of the origional poster. Interesting, isn't it?
He was told by sports magazines, Dr. Alt, Pa hunting groups, neighbors and the local hardware store owner....that AR/HR would be fabulous for PA hunters. And as you can see by the title of the thread, some are a bit shocked that it is not....fabulous. I detect a bit of a let down in the posts I read? Not exactly "shock and awe" after two years is it?
As one guy told me, "I thought it was supposed to be better hunting?"
Hey, so we got punk'd by the PGC.
Typing in all caps is a internet faux pas, and we all know you don't want to be yelling at people. We can hear you just fine.
You may want to start a separate thread if you are wanting to discuss Sunday hunting. It's contentious, and is something that will not be settled on an internet message board. But you can always share you desire for or against it in a new thread. Run it up the flag pole, and see if the cat licks it up!
The unique thing about a thread like "Pa hunting bad????" is that it shows some surprise on the part of the origional poster. Interesting, isn't it?
He was told by sports magazines, Dr. Alt, Pa hunting groups, neighbors and the local hardware store owner....that AR/HR would be fabulous for PA hunters. And as you can see by the title of the thread, some are a bit shocked that it is not....fabulous. I detect a bit of a let down in the posts I read? Not exactly "shock and awe" after two years is it?
As one guy told me, "I thought it was supposed to be better hunting?"
Hey, so we got punk'd by the PGC.
11-09-2004, 07:10 PM
#55
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 79
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
I think the PGC's plan is a big part of it, but I don't think it's the only reason for the decline in deer numbers. I think when you couple weather,additional hunting licenses, more road traffic, and the rise in disease and predators, the deer population really takes a hit. Something, if the PGC continues it's assault, I think the deer might not recover from. Which, by the way, may have more than an impact than the PGC wants to see. And, and don't quote me on this, but I believe Pa is one of the largest drawing states for non-resident hunters. If there ain't deer, there ain't hunters, and there sure as heck isn't that "extra" generated revenue that the PGC so desperately needs to continue onward and upward ( or downward).
Well, we have half the deer we had in 2002, but look at the size of that rack!!!
Well, we have half the deer we had in 2002, but look at the size of that rack!!!
11-10-2004, 08:31 AM
#56
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 255
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
I hope some others will post as a response as well, because I don't want to sound like I disagree wth everything you are saying..... but there are a few flaws in your post that could be open to different interpretations. Let me just share my one opinion on some of them.
"I think the PGC's plan is a big part of it, but I don't think it's the only reason for the decline in deer numbers. I think when you couple weather,additional hunting licenses, more road traffic, and the rise in disease and predators, the deer population really takes a hit. "
Very true, but we as sportsman do not control the road traffic and weather. Our state agency controlls the deer by issuing doe tags accordingly. I do not know how many are too many or too few. BUT I do know that by issuing more tags, the herd gets reduced. That is straight from the PGC website, and from many other states who wish to reduce thier herd. Herd reduction is the plan in pa, and the tool to do it is additional doe harvests. That much we know. So we know that we can put aside predators, weather, aliens, and biospheres as being the reason for our situation, since they are always there every year. What we DO know is that tag allotments control our herd size. Always have.......always will.
"Something, if the PGC continues it's assault, I think the deer might not recover from. Which, by the way, may have more than an impact than the PGC wants to see. "
No I have to disagree, the herd will always rebound back. The only question is how long a time? I can't say how long. The PGC says "it is better to overharvest than to underharvest", and I believe that. But they say the rebound will be quick, and I do not really agree. It will take quite some time (and they probably realize that too but will not speak to it). It will take some time to recover from an overharvest, but eventually it will rebound "if" other species do not exploit the gap created.
The PGC won't make written time lines or written goals and objectives that are measurable. That is because they do not want sportman to fully comprehend how long this will take. They speak of your children because they need to play to emotions and hype rather than facts and measurements. Politics, not science.
" If there ain't deer, there ain't hunters, and there sure as heck isn't that "extra" generated revenue that the PGC so desperately needs to continue onward and upward ( or downward). "
Don't be so sure. Non sportsmans groups ponied up 1.3 million dollars to the PGC and PSU to pay for the studies to jusitfy the "kill the deer" programs in place. Large foundations like the Heinz Endowments, the Western Conservancy, Sand County Foundation, Audubon, Sierra Club, timber interests, ecotourism interests are all eager and waiting to help fill the void left by leaving hunters. Audubons web site has tips on how Audubon members can purchase PGC memorabelia such as shirts, patches, license plates etc.... to support the PGC.
The PGC has recently created a 'foundation' which non sportsman can donate cash directly to, in order to "support wildlife". These groups are covering the whole spectrum of thier $$$ buying power. From small purchases by rank and file, to large donations in excess of one million at a time by trusts and conservancies, thru land purhcases for the PGC, and with donations for support of studies to justify thier agenda (like happened with deer).
We won't even mention the efforts to merge some agencies and allow general fund dollars be used to fill the void, which means that career politicians can say how the dollars are spent.
One thing that is always true in state bureaucracies..... follow the money. The PGC only derives about 50% of its income from license sales. The other half is in timber sales on SGL's with gas and coal leases (12-14 million dollars a year), cash donations, merhcandise sales, Pitman-Roberts aid, other Federal and state aid programs, and land donations.
So the license dollars are not as important as they once were, when only about 15% of the income of the PGC was from timber. The PGC has sat on its timber resources and allowed them to mature and they are now offsetting the importance of license dollars. And remember the legislature has given a green light to the PGC now that they are reducing the herd and appeasing the special interests and lobbyists in the Leg. So they are getting a license hike for 2005.
Money, in the PGC who carries a rollover (excess) of 20-30 million dollars each year is not a big problem. Although some would lead you to believe it is ALWAYS an issue. That is just a symtom of a large bloated bureaucracy, they always claim they are short on money, its just good politics.
"Well, we have half the deer we had in 2002, but look at the size of that rack!!! "
I'm not sure how to take that statement. Maybe you are being facetious? In our hunting circles in this part of pa, we are seeing less deer and none appear to be any bigger than before. Just less overall. The only people I hear saying they see bigger racks everywhere are Jr. Alties' and you know how they are!
wannabe's.
"I think the PGC's plan is a big part of it, but I don't think it's the only reason for the decline in deer numbers. I think when you couple weather,additional hunting licenses, more road traffic, and the rise in disease and predators, the deer population really takes a hit. "
Very true, but we as sportsman do not control the road traffic and weather. Our state agency controlls the deer by issuing doe tags accordingly. I do not know how many are too many or too few. BUT I do know that by issuing more tags, the herd gets reduced. That is straight from the PGC website, and from many other states who wish to reduce thier herd. Herd reduction is the plan in pa, and the tool to do it is additional doe harvests. That much we know. So we know that we can put aside predators, weather, aliens, and biospheres as being the reason for our situation, since they are always there every year. What we DO know is that tag allotments control our herd size. Always have.......always will.
"Something, if the PGC continues it's assault, I think the deer might not recover from. Which, by the way, may have more than an impact than the PGC wants to see. "
No I have to disagree, the herd will always rebound back. The only question is how long a time? I can't say how long. The PGC says "it is better to overharvest than to underharvest", and I believe that. But they say the rebound will be quick, and I do not really agree. It will take quite some time (and they probably realize that too but will not speak to it). It will take some time to recover from an overharvest, but eventually it will rebound "if" other species do not exploit the gap created.
The PGC won't make written time lines or written goals and objectives that are measurable. That is because they do not want sportman to fully comprehend how long this will take. They speak of your children because they need to play to emotions and hype rather than facts and measurements. Politics, not science.
" If there ain't deer, there ain't hunters, and there sure as heck isn't that "extra" generated revenue that the PGC so desperately needs to continue onward and upward ( or downward). "
Don't be so sure. Non sportsmans groups ponied up 1.3 million dollars to the PGC and PSU to pay for the studies to jusitfy the "kill the deer" programs in place. Large foundations like the Heinz Endowments, the Western Conservancy, Sand County Foundation, Audubon, Sierra Club, timber interests, ecotourism interests are all eager and waiting to help fill the void left by leaving hunters. Audubons web site has tips on how Audubon members can purchase PGC memorabelia such as shirts, patches, license plates etc.... to support the PGC.
The PGC has recently created a 'foundation' which non sportsman can donate cash directly to, in order to "support wildlife". These groups are covering the whole spectrum of thier $$$ buying power. From small purchases by rank and file, to large donations in excess of one million at a time by trusts and conservancies, thru land purhcases for the PGC, and with donations for support of studies to justify thier agenda (like happened with deer).
We won't even mention the efforts to merge some agencies and allow general fund dollars be used to fill the void, which means that career politicians can say how the dollars are spent.
One thing that is always true in state bureaucracies..... follow the money. The PGC only derives about 50% of its income from license sales. The other half is in timber sales on SGL's with gas and coal leases (12-14 million dollars a year), cash donations, merhcandise sales, Pitman-Roberts aid, other Federal and state aid programs, and land donations.
So the license dollars are not as important as they once were, when only about 15% of the income of the PGC was from timber. The PGC has sat on its timber resources and allowed them to mature and they are now offsetting the importance of license dollars. And remember the legislature has given a green light to the PGC now that they are reducing the herd and appeasing the special interests and lobbyists in the Leg. So they are getting a license hike for 2005.
Money, in the PGC who carries a rollover (excess) of 20-30 million dollars each year is not a big problem. Although some would lead you to believe it is ALWAYS an issue. That is just a symtom of a large bloated bureaucracy, they always claim they are short on money, its just good politics.
"Well, we have half the deer we had in 2002, but look at the size of that rack!!! "
I'm not sure how to take that statement. Maybe you are being facetious? In our hunting circles in this part of pa, we are seeing less deer and none appear to be any bigger than before. Just less overall. The only people I hear saying they see bigger racks everywhere are Jr. Alties' and you know how they are!
wannabe's.
11-10-2004, 11:05 AM
#57
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
I remember when you could only shoot one deer a year - regardless of sex. If you had a doe license, you could shoot a doe in "doe season". If not, you could shoot one in archery or muzzle loader season. If you got one, that was your one and only tag. You were done for the year. Imagine if your season ended on October 2nd if you shot a doe. Times, they are a changing.
11-10-2004, 01:01 PM
#59
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 53
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
What happens in 5 years from now when your kid asks you. Dad what does a deer look like? You will have to break open the encyclopedia to show him a picture because on your 20 day hunting trip you didn't get to see or shot at a deer.
11-10-2004, 01:54 PM
#60
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: Pa. deer hunting BAD????
ORIGINAL: BarnesX.308
I remember when you could only shoot one deer a year - regardless of sex. If you had a doe license, you could shoot a doe in "doe season". If not, you could shoot one in archery or muzzle loader season. If you got one, that was your one and only tag. You were done for the year. Imagine if your season ended on October 2nd if you shot a doe. Times, they are a changing.
I remember when you could only shoot one deer a year - regardless of sex. If you had a doe license, you could shoot a doe in "doe season". If not, you could shoot one in archery or muzzle loader season. If you got one, that was your one and only tag. You were done for the year. Imagine if your season ended on October 2nd if you shot a doe. Times, they are a changing.