PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Just curious.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I have shot a couple during my hunting career. Then again I was in my early teens at the time. I really can't see me shooting another one unless I really screw up the ID process, and that's unlikely to happen.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Thanks Rybo,
I know in the past things were done differently and harvesting a BB was just like any other deer. If I understand your position, you try to abstain from shooting BB now and in the future. I think that is a good practice and good for the deer management in PA. What was done in the past is done and over and was based on a whole different way of thinking. Nice to see PA hunters are able to change with the times and adapt to modern principles.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Wishfull thinking. :D

This sounds like an Alty wish list.

Bottom line is that there is no state that puts an emphasis on doe harvests that do not take plenty of BB with that harvest. Pick another state that harvests 2 AL for every A deer like pa does and look at what their % of buck is in that number.

Too funny, to hear that people think they can prevent the harvest of young bucks, and even more funny is that the PGC experts are not worried about it either.

"About 75 percent of next year's bucks have already been born before Pennsylvania hunting seasons begin -- they are the button bucks we see while afield. The remainder comprises those antlered bucks that elude hunters during the seasons. Hunters typically shoot about 30 percent of the does in annual harvests. After winter losses, about six of every 10 adult females afield before the seasons start will be around next spring to reproduce. And don't worry about hunters shooting too many button bucks -- they typically shoot only about 20 percent of the available button bucks through the deer seasons" <=== from the PGC web site


Bottom line. Anyone who has shot a bunch of does has shot a few buck. The law of averages says so, the PGC says so and it is part of the deer management equation.

Its too funny that Altys cling to the hope of lots of bucks behind every bush, and think that a handfull of BB saved is they key to success or failure in PA's wildlife management.

As a whole the state has not gotten its results on herd reduction. As a state we need to start shooting many many many more antlerless deer to get the required reductions....so getting picky and choosy now is not going to help meet that goal.

If you want reductions, then you need heavy harvests. If you have heavy AL harvests you have BB taken in the mix. It happens in every state with a heavy AL harvest.

Always has, always will. ;)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I appreciate your comments Chick.
The only problem with your reply is that you didn't answer. The thread is about whether you will or will not harvest BB. Will you purposely harvest BB or will you go to long lengths to avoid harvesting BB?

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Neither. I will do what the PGC has asked me to do. Harvest more antlerless deer to balance our herd and continue to harvest bucks like always. And while I am harvesting antlerless deer like the PGC asked....a portion of those will be bb and older bucks who lost thier antlers. About 20-24% of my personal AL harvest will statisticly be bucks.

And....if I am in an area that is overloaded with deer? The PGC says if your goal is herd reduction harvest away. Any deer taken is helpfull in overpopluated areas. So I will take any deer fawn, adult doe, buck, BB, goat that gets in the way, albino's you name it.

In areas that are not over populated I use my good judgement first to see if I even will fill any doe tag, and if I choose to I will use the guideline that the PGC has recomended and that is:

"Consider Letting That Button Buck Walk Away" "Of course, we’re not inferring that it’s wrong to shoot a button buck. They are legal game, and all deer are
trophies. " "These decisions are often based on hunting limitations and individual preferences, and vary from hunter to hunter....." <pgc literature


So I would take into consideration the landowners wishes if I am on private land. Our landowner is not a rack hunter and could care less what we shoot. A boy deer eats as much as a girl deer. If I am on public land I will use my own guidelines like the PGC says we should. I am not a wannabe rack hunter and do not care a lick if a buck has a half rack of 2, 3, or 4 points....makes no difference. So I will take the situation as it comes, and if there is no big doe standing around, and the landowner has no wishes then a BB is going to be in zip lock baggies in my freezer. ;)


I always follow the PGC regs, and honor and respect landowner wishes. So this year I will be harvesting any legal deer in pa. So I will neither purposely seek out a BB nor will I go to long lengths to avoid one.

I have about a 20 to 25% chance it will end up a BB.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I shot my first BB last year, and it could have been avoided but I was impatient and shot what I thought was a doe in ML season. I make a solid effort not to shoot BB, but in the gun seasons it's going to happen at one point or another.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I have shot a BB and I may again in the future. If I do again will depend upon the situation. It is early in the archery season now and I have passed on three BB's and two young does - mainly because they are not big enough to justify the cost of processing. I am in WMU 2D and I only have one tag for here. Later in the archery season if I feel desperate I will take a BB if given the chance. I also have a tag for 2B. In 2B herd reduction is needed so any deer will do. I usually save that tag for the later shotgun season.
So, basically I'm saying I hunt to fill my freezer. My brothers & uncle also hunt to fill the freezer. My older brother has 8 tags for 2B. He processes the deer himself and will always take BB's cause they're easier to shoot and process plus the meat is tender.
Since we have the antler restrictions my chances of getting a legal buck are pretty slim so I must take what I can get with my doe tags.....

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I am sorry you feel this way. Of course I don't know the specific piece of ground you hunt, but I am familiar with a good portion of the 2D zone. There are so many legal 1st year bucks, besides the bigger ones that get thru as well. Although I started my personal set of size limitations before AR went into place, I never really did understand why so many people got bent out of shape who hunted in areas with sizeable 1st rack bucks. Yea the odds may have dropped some, just becuase you went from everything legal, to a restriction, but it is still far from the 'slim chance' statement.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You know the guy didnt ask for a discertation on the pros and cons of shooting button bucks.... Gheez, you sound alot like a guy I know that goes by the name of neverwas...I mean beenthere on huntingpa.com.

Really? I shoot between 3 and 4 doe a year and its been 7 years since I shot a button buck and the only reason I shot him, is that is was raining and he was bedded down in the mountain laural and at 100 yards he sure as heck looked like he didnt have buttons.
Of all the guys that I know that hunt, and shot doe last year, only one of them shot a button buck, and were talking total harvest of well over 30 doe.

Bottom line is that we do everything possible to avoid shooting them. But then again thats us. We like having buck around.

So to answer the ?, I try like the devil to avoid it, to the point of if I dont know I dont shoot, just to many does out there to have to whack one if he maybe a button buck.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Personally, I have done my best to avoid shooting them for several years.

I have a 12 year old and would probably encourage him to shoot any legal deer his first year.

My 15 year old passes them now.

I feel it's a personal choice for each hunter and while I would try to encourage all hunters to be selective, I also wouldn't criticize a fellow hunter for taking any legal deer.

The exeception to that would be those who make it a point complain about BB kills and then kill them anyway.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I did ,it was my first 45 years ago. Before Alt and all this discussion I decided myself if I shoot buttons on my farm ,I'm just hurting my chance for a antlered buck,Made sense to me,Never will again.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Another person who is upset by Bt's wit and intelligence? Go figure!

First of all you should be proud of the record of your little group of 30 hunters. They have done what no state with statewide AR/HR has ever done. Harvest one BB out of 30. Deer and DEER Hunter would write a story of your little group!

But we do have states who use AR/HR like ARkansas since 1998 and are in thier sixth year of trying to squelch BB harvest. Lets see how they do ? Shall we?

espn http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/...cast04_AR.html

Arkansas makes hunters use a buck tag for BB. Yet lets see here......how
many do they take.... 66,204 adult buck - 9756 Button buck - 32175 doe in 2003

We don't have BT here to do the math for us, so what does that work out to Bucky?

The PGC says 20-24% will be BB, we go to Arkansas and even without a real push on doe harvests in 2003 took more than that!!!!!

So if we compare that to PA, then Pa will have a bigger problem because we are wailing a lot more doe than the Arkies are. WE took 142,270B and 322,620 AL deer. Lordy! We are taking 2 doe for every one buck and ark is flipped the other way around.

So what was 20% of Pa's 322,620 harvest ? 64,454 bucks taken as AL

So as you can see we will see the effects of this small facet of deer managment even clearer than states that are not so zealous in thier doe harvests.

Did Beenthere tell you that too? Is that why you are upset with numbers?

Remember, if you can't represent it with numbers, it ain't science. ;)


So in summary, a lot of individual hunters claim amazing powers to never harvest BB. But the reports from deer biologists show a different story. In very small groups on controlled lands a small group of hunters might get lucky and have a low %, but statewide the laws of averages catches up to ya and you end up with harvesting a bunch of BB. If you don't then the opposite happens and you are not harvesting doe in large enough numbers to reduce the herd size. Which is our goal in PA.!

In case you don't like looking to other states because you are backwards and afraid to, then here is a link for QDMA. A trusted Alty source for wishfull thinking.

The percentage of button bucks in the antlerless harvest remained similar (22 percent in 2002 vs. 23 percent in 2001).
http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=41


So although you may sit in your stand and cross your fingers that good things will happen by magic, the truth is that BB are gonna get whacked with about as much regularity as before AR/HR percentage wise. And as we all know, when we increase the number of percentage points of doe harvested we are INCREASING our take of BB too.

But you already knew that, BT told you that 3 years ago. :D:(

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I did it once many years ago on a bitter cold day in late muzzle loader and it almost made me sick when I saw that it was a button buck. Since then, I carefully look at deer and have avoided shooting a BB. I had 2 buttons udner my stand on Monday and it is easy to see the little nubs during archery.

We do have certain guys in our club that are notorius for shooting BB's each and every year.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I think you all know how I personally feel about shooting BB, but that opinion is for me only. I would never ridicule anyone who shoots a BB, even on purpose. We all have our own reasons and expectation. In differing circumstances it may be hard to tell and mistakes happen, as in the 100 yard shot in the rain story. I do feel that abstaining from harvesting them is good management. I take exception, however, to someone who shoots them at will and then complains that there are no larger legal buck in their area. That being said, the reason I started this thread was to get an idea of the thinking of a broader group of hunters and not to ridicule anyone. I know I have questioned some guys that shoot BB but their statements openly conflict with their actions on the subject.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Though not as vocal :) I tend to be more inline with chickory on this one. I do not go out of my way to shoot or not to shoot button bucks.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I don't complain about shooting BB , because as Chickory pointed out so well, it is inevitable when harvesting large numbers od anterless deer. You interpret a discussion about the impact of harvesting BB on future buck harvest as a complaint and call me a hypocrit, because you can't refute the fact ,that not shooting BB only delays the decrease in the buck harvest 1 year.

I do not target BB, and prefer shooting mature doe , but after the first few days of rifle season I'll take any legal deer because they disappear into posted ground and usualy all we see are fawns.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Ahhhh you and BT must be good buddys.

Your dang straight, but then again myself and my buddys arnt your average everyday hunters. Just because you cant do it, it must not be possible. I can see BT must have taught you how to hunt LMAO ;)

[quote]Did Beenthere tell you that too? Is that why you are upset with numbers?

Remember, if you can't represent it with numbers, it ain't science.
[:D/quote]

We proved it, like I said were a group of dedicated hunters, who has the skill neccesary to handle the job, but like you said that just pertains to us. We have the kinda hunting ability that lets us tell BBs from fawn doe, but then again maybe we just look for buttons on their heads before we send an arrow or a bullet down its flight path.


See there you go again, saying that not killing BB is a matter of luck, BBs beside having buttons have a differently shaped head, might have something to do with the fact that they have small bumps on there head. And for all the things that BTs said over the years, myself and a whole bunch of other hunters have come to one inescapable conclusion, BT couldnt hunt his way out of a wet paper bag with a chain saw. :D

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

If you weren't there when all those doe were shot you are dealing in hearsay and that is a polite way of saying I think you are full of beans.

Furthermore, if you be up to date on the PGC studies you would know that most of those BB you saved will disperse up to 10+ miles away from where they were born. So although you saved them , it is quite probable you will never see them again. But, you did your duty as an Altie and reduced the recruitment rate in your area so there will be even fewer BB in the future. Congradulations!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

killed one my second year of hunting...first year youth could take does in rifle season...hunted a long day to see a few tails....rained all day too...coming off the mountain he was running right for us....i hid behind a giant tree and shot him when he was broadside with me adn the tree......from a few FEET away....it was my second deer....i check now....and been shooting the biggest maturest does with no teeth in their mouths at all since.....now that im hunting with a flinter alot i gota be careful....i know im going to be passing a few just to be safe.....i may slip up but dont plan to kill any on purpose......

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

i have shot 2 knotheads my first 2 deer didnt know either of them were buttons till i got up to them. I will shoot a mature doe over a button any day but if the season's winding down and the freezer is empty ill smack one.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I see.... when you have just your hunting tales and thirdhand knowledge you quickly resort to a personal bash rather than speak to the issue.

Your little group is no better than any other group of hunters in pa, you may thing you are but thats just internet braggadocio.

Its a fact that when you put an emphasis on doe harvest, you are gonna take the BB with the AL harvest at 20+ percent. IF your not, then your not accomplishing high AL harvests and not getting your HR as per the plan.

Wishfull thinking is all you have, when it comes to BB.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Sounds like we got three kinds here....

1
Those who don't necessarily try to shoot BB's but don't make a concerted effort to avoid it either.

2
Those who try to be selective and leave the BB's

3
Those who happily shoot em and seem to be happy that it happens. Coincidentally these are also the most vocal opponents to AR and HR

To the guys (and gals) behind door # 1, I say no problem. They're legal deer. Every hunter can set his own standards within the law. I would be inclined to encourage those hunters to consider letting em go. ( I said ENCOURAGE not dictate!)

To the folks behind Door # 2. Congratulations! Even though that BB may get popped by the next guy down the ridge, you are willing to sacrifice an opportunity to harvest a deer because you believe it might help the resource.

To the # 3 gang, once again, you have proven yourself to be nothing but selfish.
This group also hates ARand HR. Could it be that they "just wanna shoot sumpin" and wont make the commitment to hunt for a mature deer whether it's a buck or a doe?
They further criticize HR cause it's harder, especially for less commited hunters, to shoot any deer when there's a few less of em.
I'd encourage this group to consider golf!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Your right I wasent there to see them killed but I did see the deer and or the pics of the deer, so unless my friends are leaving deer in the woods after they shoot them, I would say you dont have a clue as to what your talking about.

What you said would be entirely true, if not for the fact that ophraned deer dont disperce near as far as deer that arnt. Do your homework next time. ;)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Oh pluuze, give me a break. Your the one who started off by telling me that I should have learned something from BT, I did and when I told you what I learned you cry bashing, boo hoo hoo. Cry me a river.


There are loads of groups just like ours, nothing real hard about it, however there are just as many people out there such as yourself and BT that think brown is down. Thats fine for you, but not for us. You go yourway and Ill go to the taxidermist. :)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I've shot a few buttons in my early years, but I can't recall shooting any buttons in the last 5 years or so. I do try and make sure all of the deer I shoot are at least 1.5. Moreso because I like to have meat in the freezer and they offer a higher yeild than the typical buttons or first year doe. But, I'm in line with Cardeer in that I don't want to kill future generations of bucks so I make an effort to identify them before dropping the hammer. Those are my two main reasons/philosophies on this subject. I'm not going to say that I'll never shoot a button again, but I will say that it's highly unlikely that I'll do it knowing it's a button. I like to still hunt in rifle season and sometimes you bump a single antlerless deer up or multiples that offer a shot....I do my best to shoot the biggest of them, but in those cases it's sometimes difficult to idnentify in a hurry. Archery season I don't see myself shooting a button ever again, but anything is possible.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You are being intellectually dishonest and are intentionallly misrepresenting my position . I specifically stated our group prefers to shoot adult deer and when we have the choice we all harvest the largest deer available. Therefore, the brown and down label does not appply.

The selfish hunters are the ones that pass on BB to create more trophies and then fail to harvest an anterless deer to help with herd reduction. The result of this practice has been zero herd reduction after 4 years of Alt's plan which will result in more drastic measures to reduce the herd , such as a rifle anterless season during archery ,as proposed by the DCNR>

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

The fact that some guys are willing to pass on a BB even though it may disperse to a different area says alot. I always pass on BB knowing full well that it may leave for parts unknown. I am willing to do this for the betterment of the sport and hope that some guys over the next ridge would do the same for me. Some may ridicule this way of thinking but little steps add up if enough folks practice this. If you want a BB, by all means shoot one though, they are legal after all.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

More important than the shallow interests of wannabe rack hunters should be forest health and herd health. If your area is overpopulated, you do a dis-service by not harvesting any deer. (to be politically correct you should say you would shoot another doe in its place).

In the other bb thread I posted a note from Alabamas DNR that says it all. They remind people to shoot bb if they want to achieve their herd reduction goal.

But I'll post another one just for good measure, this one from Arkansas DNR

"Concerns surrounding the reluctance by hunters to kill female deer, on the chance it may be a button buck, could result in a decreased doe harvest. The agency has pressed for a balanced sex ratio in its deer management practices."

If we support the PGC's efforts for herd reductions in Pa then we have to get REAL busy on shooting does for this year. 5 years of modern deer management under this team and they claim we have not reduced one single deer. So you cannot be choosy this year, you have to harvest bigtime if you are going to be a good conservationist hero Alty and get your WMU to the goal of 13 dpm.



..."Be bold in what you stand for; and careful what you fall for. "

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

If this is true then why are so many people claiming there are no deer left to hunt?

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Have we harvested more AL under AR? .......YES
Has the BB kill declined as a percentage of the AL kill?...... YES
Are we doing the impossible...YES, (according to you)
Is it impossible? ..................NO, (according to me, and the facts)
Anything that can be done once can be improved on in the future.
We are just starting out and the FACTS prove that we can do it.

CONCLUSION
SO, YOU ARE WRONG AND THE FACTS PROVE YOU ARE WRONG!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I never said it was impossible to reduce the percentage of BB in the anterless harvest. What I said was that saving BB only delays the inevitable decline in the buck harvest by one year , because it accelerates the rate at which we harvest adult doe ,which decreases breeding rates and recruitment so fewer BB will be born.

In 2003 we reduced the BB harvest by 9K and increased the adult doe harvest by 22.4 K ,which will result in a decrease in 39K fewer fawns and 19.5K fewer BB. So the long term effect of saving 9 K BB in 2003 was 19.5 K fewer BB in 2004 . therefore, there is no way that saving BB will keep up with the accerlate decline in BB production caused by shooting more adukt doe.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Nobody says it better than deaddeer. :D

You can spin your wheels trying to make more out of our deer plan than is there...

You can fret over BB.

But in the end, less deer = less deer. It always the herd reduction part that get 'ya!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Yep, you're right! John Kerry comes close, but he's an amatuer at distorting the facts compared to ol DD!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Since you have a computer, you probably have a calculator lying around somewhere. So, why don't you calculate the number of additional 1.5 buck that will created by saving BB versus the number of BB that will be lost due to harvesting additional doe and prove that I am wrong.

Obviously ,you don't have the ability to do it or your you would have done it already and made me look foolish. Instead you make silly ,unsupported claims which make you look foolish. Keep it up.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Duh!

Everyone here has agreed with the statement .... less deer= less deer. Of course more adult does killed means less BB's the next year. Thats not all you tried to say though. You tried to say that passing BB's would not have an effect. As a matter of fact, with more does being killed, it is even more important that we do our best as hunters to bring as many folks as possible on board to the idea of letting BB's walk. This is one that cant be effectively or realistically legislated. A culture change from within our ranks is the only way it could happen. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to possibly understand the concept of self sacrifice to make our deer herd better for all of us. So go ahead, continue to KERRYcterize the facts to your own end. I dont have to point it out. It's as plain as day and most here see it.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I never said or implied passing on BB would have no effect. What I said was it would only delay the decrease in the buck harvest for one year and that in the long term it would accelerate the decline due to harvesting more adult doe. But, apparently that is to complicated for you to understand ,but it is stilll true.

According to you, by harvesting BB ,to reduce the herd, I am reducing my chances to harvest a mature buck and then you turn around and accuse me of being selfish. Maybe you should look in the mirror if you want to see someone who is selfish and places more importance of producing more buck than on herd reduction,even though you give herd reduction plenty of lip service.

You say you don't have to point out my mistakes and the reason is you can't. There are lots of folks that would love to prove me wong ,but they can't because I use PGC stats, not personal opinions as you do.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Getting back to the original question.

I do not think people should shoot button bucks if they can help it. That is the stance of the PGC. The only button buck I ever shot had its leg blown off and ran and stood in front of me bleeding profusely. I put a bullet through his lungs. Some guy was tracking his blood trail and I yelled to him. Once he found out it was a BB he told me it was my deer.

If it would have been a big 10pt I am sure he would have had a different opinion. That was the last day I have ever rifle hunted. I have been bowhunting ever since.

I have passed up lots of shots at BB during archery season because they are pretty stupid. I have gone without filling my antlerless tag because of this and am happy for it.

Gar-Shooter

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I'm in Jersey and do my best not to shoot BB's. I shot 1 BB about 5 years ago but it was a rainy,foggy day and I thought he was a doe. The only way I would shoot a BB on purpose is if it were the last day of the season and my freezer was still empty. If the choice is between shooting a BB and having no venison until next year....sorry Mr. Button Buck but your time is up. For the most part I would pass on a BB to let him grow.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

My .02,
Effective last week going back 7 years(private farm), I've taken 3 BB out of 23 deer total. Never intentional,have passed on many BB's and spikes. I've learned to pay much more attention to head,body and how a deer arrives on the scene. All are key signs of BB even if you can't see Buttons. I've passed on 2 BB's this year and a 3 pnt. If hunters on our farm, and I know farm next door practices such management it's a win win situation for all hunters.

Dispersal rate is directly related to buck/doe ratio. The more skewed the ratio, better chance BB will disperse(kicked out of herd). Fact is - passing on BB's and Spikes - and taking out more does increases your chances of taking a nice 6-8-10 pnt in next 2-3 years. Some as we know always slip thru the crack. This is what biologists/game managers are trying to pound into deer hunters heads.

Having said all that - look at South Texas. They have been practicing Qaulity Deer Management for years. Some of the nicest animals in country are takin off huge open ranches down there.