RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Well there, ol DD, where do I start?

Once again, you ignore the science thats not convenient to your point of view. The buck dispersal studies show that it is unlikeky that a BB passed on will remain in the same area. You are much more likely reducing your fellow hunters (down the road) chances than your own for harveting those babies after they grow up.

As for you accusing me of mere lip service when it comes to herd reduction, I have only killed 3 Pa bucks in the last 10 years. I have killed well over 50 antlerless deer in that time and only 2 were BB's. One of those was already wounded. (most in an SRA area, all legal, tagged and reported) In that time I also have passed immature but legal bucks every year before and after AR. I have passed many BB's and probably a lot more does when I couldnt be sure.

You ought to get your facts before you spout off

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

But you forget I am hunting in 5C where the PGC says we are at 19 DPSM and the goal is 6 DPSM. The PGC doesn't give a rats butt if there are enough buck for the hunters down the road,they want 68% of our deer dead,whether they are buck or doe.

If you really killed 50 doe in 10 years ,you enjoy killing a lot more than the average hunter. Furthermore, that claim really rings hollow when you consider there was no push by the PGC to get hunters to harvest a lot more doe from 1993 to 1999. Although I can't prove it ,it appears you are exhibiting internet testosterone, because you can't support your claims with facts.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

DD
BTB is in programs that hunt in suburban areas where it is HIGHLY encouraged to shoot as many deer as you can all the time. SRA's have had unlimited doe tag situations for a long time. There has always been a push to shoot that many deer in these areas.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

That may be true, but there aren't many hunters that would enjoy killing 50 doe and only 3 buck in 10 years. I believe in HR ,but I would never kill 5 doe / year, 10 years in a row because I can't use that many deer and i don't enjoy killing that much.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Comparing SRA hunting to the rest of pa is not a great comparison.

To get the proper herd reductions that we want, you have to be aggressive in antlerless take. And you will take BB with that increased pressure on does.

By the way did you notice in the PGC hunting digest that it says: "That distinction (that they are male), according to many hunters, entitles them to special consideration".

The point is that the biologists do not say there is any compelling reason to protect BB, they put the ownership back on hunters for that type of thinking.

Biologists know the AR is what protects the proper number of bucks, not wishfull thinking.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

That point is not valid since the highest buck harvest prior to 1991 harvest was the harvest of 170,101 buck in 1990. That is a decrease of 20.5K ,not the 50K you erroneously claimed.

Furthermore ,you should note that the decrease in the buck harvest was due to the record high anterless harvest of 245k in 1990 when a record 55 K BB were harvested.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

That was meant to be fascetious. That is the kind of points you make using the stats. The falling buck harvest that you complain about and your wishes to appease the masses with forkies for everyone, is based on a spike in success ratios and not a historically expected result by anyone. Seems like that one year spoiled alot of guys, huh? I really didn't expect you to get it though.


You have the right to remain silent. Don't go hurting yourself now!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Well said Livbucks!!!!


Once again DD shows that it has to be his way or not at all.

His way of digesting and regurgitating the "facts"

His way of harvesting AL deer (83% BB's)

Now, perhaps he can tell us exactly how many deer we're supposed to "enjoy" killing and hpw many deer "that I can use" is an acceptable number.

And of course we must all accept his way of managing the deer.... but wait, in all his posts, has anyone seen a positive reccomendation for a deer manangement plan acceptable to DD? All I've seen is criticism with no solutions other than "put it back the way it was"

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

The decreasing buck harvests occurred while the herd was increasing not decreasing, so your point about the the spike in the buck harvest in 2000 and 2001 is irrelevant. Without AR the buck harvet in both 2002 and 2003 would have exceeded 200K.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

The decreasing buck harvests occurred while the herd was increasing not decreasing, so your point about the the spike in the buck harvest in 2000 and 2001 is irrelevant. Without AR the buck harvet in both 2002 and 2003 would have exceeded 200K.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

It is up to the individual to determine how many deer they enjoy killing and how many deer you can use. Just rememeber, killing 5 adult doe /yr. reduces the future BB population by around 5 BB/yr. , so you are decreasing the number of BB survive just as if you were harvesting BB instead of adult doe.


You raised that issue before and I said I would have emphasized herd reduction instead telling hunters not to shoot BB and small deer and I wouldn't have created a protected class of deer with AR.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

It is up to the individual to determine how many deer they enjoy killing and how many deer you can use. Just rememeber, killing 5 adult doe /yr. reduces the future BB population by around 5 BB/yr. , so you are decreasing the number of BB survive just as if you were harvesting BB instead of adult doe.


You raised that issue before and I said I would have emphasized herd reduction instead telling hunters not to shoot BB and small deer and I wouldn't have created a protected class of deer with AR.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Thanks to AR that didn't happen. And the point I make is that your claim about the "poor 40,000 guys that went home with a doe as a consolation prize" is bogus. Just because a high number had success that one year does not mean they should be guranteed or necessarily expect a forkie every year. As a matter of fact, success ratio's will increase as a result of slowly falling hunting population and license sales. When I was a kid it was one deer per hunter per year. Folks don't know how good they have it these days and yet they complain.

Really, I'm tired of this joke of an argument. I think you just like to argue and be contrary. If you hunt in a big woods area that is controlled by timber interests, then you have to realize that the livelyhood of people and the needs of consumerism must come before your level of hunting satisfaction. If you need for the herd to be managed for your amusement only, then you should go buy a big chunk of property and fence it in.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

No one was ever guaranteed a forkie every year, even with a harvest of 203K buck in 2000 amd 2002. The success rate was approximately one hunter out of every buck , or 1 buck /hunter every fivr years.


That will only happen if the number of hunters decrease at a faster rate than the decrease in the herd. If we loose 50% of the hunters by the time we reduce the herd by 50% , then the PGC will not have enough hunters to control the herd and the problem will become worse than ever.

No , I just want hunters to know the truth about Alt's plan because all they get is smoke and mirrors from Alt and the outdoor writers. BTW, I only hunt private land now, so what happens in 2 G doesn't effect me one bit. They can reuce the herd to zero in 2 G and it won't change a thing where I hunt.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Dont pass up all BBs. the last two i took both weighed between 110lbs and 130lbs. these are mature deer that aren't needed in the breeding cycle. but yesteday i watched a yearling bb die, he was about 60yard in front of me, when i watch a ML hunter sneeking in, it wasn't long after KABOOM. i met up with him. the guy was retired, but not by long, and had the entire season to hunt. i think what really Peeed me off was his family owns the bottom of the mountain that is sealed off by posters, and he decided to come up onthe state ground to shoot what little is left!!!!!!.
That yearling couldn't of weighted more than 40lbs wet, and had 1" buttons, i wonder what he may of turned into??????

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Are you saying that you shot two mature BB? That is a new one to me as I have never heard of such an animal.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

A WCO from Elk county said he has checked numerous 1.5 buck that had spikes less than 3 " and were harvested as anterless deer. These deer are not BB,since only male fawns are referred to as BB. However, the more mature anterless deer we harvest , the more of these 1.5 buck will be harvested along with more bucks that have lost their racks.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Yes, in my mountain hunting career I have seen many 1.5 spikes that might not make the old standard, but we never referred to them as BB nor did we consider them "mature" nor were they. Bucks living in the big woods eat too much woody browse and not enough nutrient rich foliage. It is common in these areas to see 1.5 bucks that fit this description. They are NOT the product of AR but of a hard life all around. These deer get NO surplus nutrients and the antlers get sacrificed in the interest of skeletal growth and health of body. To somehow insinuate that Ar is causing this is irresponsible and rediculous. Mature bucks in these areas end up having decent racks when they are done growing their body. If they live long enough that is. that is where AR comes in...:D

As far as shooting these as antlerless deer, I'm not even goint to comment on this farce of an excuse for shooting one. OOPS.. I just did.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

It is not an excuse for shooting them,because no excuse is needed since they are a legal anterless deer. It is simply a fact of life that as you increase the anterless harvest ,more adult buck will be harvested as anterless deer, especially since AR increases the number of adult buck that survive tthe first few days of buck seaon ,only to be harvested as anterless deer later in the season.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Very rare. Most bucks shed around the beginning of Feb. I have routinely seen bucks with racks in early March. Deer hunting in PA ends the middle of January. The number of bucks that shed in time to be taken as antlerless would be even less significant than the occasional forkie taken by a junior hunter.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You really need to do a lot more reading about the history of our herd and our harvests. before AR, 2-3 % of the anterless harvest were adult buck that had lost their rack If we use the average of 2.5% and apply it to an anterless harvest of 325K ,that equals 8K adult buck harvested as anterless deer. If ,due to AR ,that percentage increased by 1%, then we would harvest 11.4 K adult buck as anterless deer.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

YADA YADA YADA..... All unsubstantiated conjecture...."IF"...
By the time bucks shed their horns the masses have quit chasing. Yes, some get taken but I doubt your numbers. Show me recent figures from actual counts to back this up. Do not show me stats from South Dakota or Saskatchewan either. PA evidence please!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You are the one that is challenging the stats I provided. So ,for a change, why don't you provide the stats that show that I am wrong. There are endless stories of hunters harvesting a buck and having one or more anterless drop off when they are hit or while dragging. It is a common occurance as is broken racks due to sparring.

Why do you think the PGC hasn't provided recent stats on the number of adult buck harvested as anterless deer. do you think it might be that the percentage has increased due to the concurrent seasons, and rifles or shotguns permitted in the late season in 5C, or 2B, plus the facts that more buck are protected by AR?

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

I just saw a BB brought in to our local country deer processor. I was there to pick up some scraps for trapping bait and after dark a guy brought him in for processing. Nice deer, didn't bother anyone there that he is hitting the ziplocks.


On another note, two years ago our camp had to pitch in and do a search of a set of forks. A guy shot one and started dragging it in a few inches of snow, when he go's 200 yds he looks back and they are gone! We pitched in and kicked the snow back down the trail and found both of them. That was the in the first week of buck season.
Antlers do drop before we are done with hunting. Not the majority, but as was alerady posted a percentage of them do.

and with our emphasis on increasing doe kill in pa that means we take more of them with the antlerless harvest. Its just a fact of life, we have done it for a long time in Pa. Even back before Pa developed an antler fetish. ;)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Those are two, nice, little, warm anecdotes you recite there!

I have hunted 26 years in PA
My older bro 30 years in PA
My younger bro 21 Years in PA
My Pop, 52 years in PA

None of us has ever seen a buck alive or dead that shed in time for hunting season. We have never known anyone that got a deer that shed in time for hunting season. When we shot a buck, even a thin little forkie years ago, we tied the rope to its horns or just dragged it BY the horns the mile that we walk in and out. Never had one even loosen any. We have seen bucks with one side BUSTED at the pedicel, but never shed in time for season. ......HOGWASH!
I'm sure it happens, but ever so rarely folks, please!!!!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Here is another nice little anecdote to add to the list.Two years ago we shot a Y buck the first day and both antlers came off during a 100 yd. drag. besides , you should know by now that I don't post facts like that without a reference . Although the source may be dated , there is no reason why it wouldn't apply to todays anterless harvests.

Just for you, I'll see if I can come up with a link to the PGN's article that states that 2-3% of the anterless harvest were adult buck that had lost their racks. And, as I recall it was before we had the late ML, late anterless rifle and late archery season.

Here is the link ,for your reading pleasure and please note that the total of adult buck in the naterless harvest was 4% , not the 2-3% I reported.

http://www.fortgrundsow.com/WhyCheckDeer4.jpg

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

HOLY CRAP!
Where did you dig that up? The font is so old on that article it should be considered heiroglyphic.....
If you hunted as much as you read about the hunting stats, you should have no problem getting your buck....No offense, you are well read!

I was rummaging around in my memory and I do recall one year there was an abundance of racks falling off during buck season and the biologists were scrambling to come up with a cause. The hunting public was panicking with reason scenarios. I did not witness any of this, just read or heard about it, I don't recall which. I acknowledged that it does happen, some years alot I guess, some years hardly at all.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

hehehe.... no one you know ever heard of deer shedding thier racks early? what is early? You think because you lead a sheltered life and never have seen it that it never happens? Bwwwahhhahahahahaaaaa.


Good one.

Just can't face up to the fact you were not aware of all the issues revolving around a heavier antlerless harvest. And thanks goodness dead deer is here to educate you. And he does a good job, I commend him for taking the time with our slower learners. :D

Next time your rummaging around in your memory, maybe you can remember that Pa has always had mature bucks shed thier antlers before the season is over. But of course deaddeer aleady pointed that out, even before your snotty reply to me.

...and so end'th the lesson. ;)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Still rare....

As Far as a runny nose reply, you have given your share, and mine wasn't so snotty, you just carry a sensitive chip. I said that no one I ever knew or me ever saw this, and that represents a whole load of years a huntin'. If you remember correctly, deadderr discounts anectdotes as insignificant and as such should be dismissed. So, if people of my opinion cannot recite any, neither can you two cohorts. Mon bring it!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You just don't get it, do you ? It is not about whether I get a buck or not. Due to Alt and AR I am no longer a buck hunter, I am simply a deer hunter. If a legal buck comes along I'll shoot it, but I am not going to go out of my way to harvest a buck. Any legal deer worth butchering is good enough for me.

You may consider the harvest of adult buck as rare ,since you can choose to define rare anywhere you want, but it doesn't change the fact that increased anterless harvests decrease the adult buck harvest. You should also note that when that stat was published, 80% of the preseason buck were harvested before the anterless season and there was no late ML/archery season. Now,due to AR, there will be more buck that survive that could be harvested as antlerless deer.

So Alt's plan has produced lower buck harvests because we are harvesting higher percentage of our males as BB , more adult buck are being harvested as anterless deer, fewer BB are being born due to shooting more adult doe and at the same time AR only increased the numberof 8+ pt. buck by 4,000,while reducing the buck harvest by 61,000.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

like quite a few others, they don't want to admit they fell for the hype.

Its kinda hard for them to admit they got punk'd.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

You don't think you are a buck hunter but you are. You take your racks in the form of premie buttons or empty pedicels. And your argument about no bucks left IS hogwash, whether a buck is taken as an antlerless deer or an antlered is irrelevant. It is still a buck and you guys that complain about not being able to get a buck end up shooting three or four a year in the form of an antlerless. Well there you go, you got your bucks. You don't have an antler fetish, do you? You are just "deer" hunters after all, not "buck" hunters anymore, right? "It's Gary Alts fault I shot four bucks this year, not mine, I couldn't help myself, honest, he made me do it"

That is the shortcoming in the plan. Guys that would fill their half dozen bonus tags with BB or empty pedicels today out of spite and selfishness and blame the plan for their loss of opportunities tomorrow. That is the problem today, some can explain and rationalize things on paper, and add facts and figures, but they have no real concept of how things work where the boot meets the mud. They have no realization of the consequences of their selfish acts. All I can say is shoot away, you reap what you sow. We practice the pure form of the plan where we hunt, and all the promised rewards are now being bestowed. We are a happy group.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

one very easy way to tell if it's a BB or a doe is that doe have a hump on the top of there heads where as a buck does not....even at a 100 yds you can see this hump just above the eyes of the doe where as a bucks head will be flat..............................bob

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Now you are just expressing your frustration that you can't formulate a logical defense to the points I have been making. Of course I realize I am harvesting male deer when I harvest a BB or anterless adult male and I have dememostarted quite conclusively that hunters will be harvesting a higher percentage of our male deer as anterless as herd reduction continues. It is a simple fact of life when you are reducing the herd and you can blame the hunters or blame Alt, but the end result will be the same.

Harvesting BB is not a selfish act as you claim. It is simply assigning a higher priorty to herd reduction than harvesting a buck. If every hunter passed on all fawns in order to save BB , anterless harvests would drop drmatically , more areas would be overpopulate and overbrowsed and Alt's plan would be a total failure. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT!!!!

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

HR sux, its ruining the north central counties of PA. The hunting here is horrible now and I may need to start hunting NY if I want to see anything. I have killed a BB before and no I will not do it again. I probably wont be shooting a doe either, I plan to buy up as many tags as I can for this area, dmap,flintlock, etc.etc. and just hold on to them, my wife will also be buying a license now, should save a couple deer a year that way. ALT needs kicked out of this state.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Whaaaaaat...?? Not everyone likes herd reduction and wannabe's??

Go figure.

Not busting on you pa bowman, I'm just having a little fun at the expense of the Jr Alties. Up till now it has been theory and wishfull thinking. Fluff and rhetoric. But now the rubber is hitting the road and as predicted not everyone likes the smaller herd and the less opportunity.

If you think its depressing now, wait till after rifle season.

Herd reductions with extra BB dead biting the dust......coming to a woods near you...;)

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

No , it is you who complains, I am a happy hunter, remember? You dutifully whack any deer that comes along without regard for the future and then complain about falling buck harvests. I have never complained about falling buck harvests. If the herd is increasing, why all the bellyaching from you guys. If you have private property nearby that harbors all the smart deer and all you are left with is dumb buttons, sorry.
Seems like something you gotta deal with and not Gary Alts fault. I still don't get you guys, do you think HR is necessary? I still can't tell either way what you want. By the way, harvesting buttons IS a selfish act IF you are going to complain later about no opportunities to harvest a buck.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Now there is an expressed opinion I can respect. The guy thinks deer opportunities are down, he does not like it and yet he is willing to do what he thinks is best for his situation. He will lay off does and buttons because he knows that doing so will repair the damage done in his specific area. If that were DD or Chick saying this, they would respond by filling ALL their tags and bonus's with BB and even bucks that shed, out of spite and selfishness. In reading his report though, I must add that many posts reflect quite the opposite findings in the NC region. Deer density varies across the landscape and if your area is down, don't overharvest your future, do what is best for your specific situation. Shooting any deer that is left in your neck of the woods does not offset an overdensity 30 miles away. You are only shooting yourself in the foot.

RE: PA- Who has shot BB and will you in the future?
 

Sorry, but your clumsy bash doesn't fly.... if your going to bash then at least have it make sense. :D

You complain because we are following the plan, which is to reduce the herd everywhere. Do you have any directions from the grand tall wizard Dr. Alt to harvest here, but no there? No

Do you have maps of population densities to direct the hunters to high populations? no. Matter of fact dmap areas are directing hunters directly to low deer populations according to Merlin Benner of DCNR.

You complain and complain, but we are just doing as the good Dr. asked. Apparently now you are the one who does not believe in Dr. Alts deer management, since you are saying there are areas that do not need reductions. Yet Dr. Alt says ALL areas are overpopulated and we need a heavy doe harvest this season to "balance the herd with its habitat".

When exactly did you walk away from the deer plan? Not that you are the only one to do so, a lot of hunters do not believe in it. But was it when you found out the states deer density goals were obscene? Or when you realized that it was not producing what it promised?

Big wmu's, big allotments = big antlerless harvest. And with that big antlerless harvest go a percentage of BB and adult bucks that lost thier antlers.... no wonder you no longer support the plan.