Just another couple of quick responses to "cardeer" on his post regarding the game commission putting out more food plots. You say you hunt iowa and Illinois...I cant remember ever seeing any of the terrain that we have here in PA (like our mountians) out in Iowa. Iowa seems mostly agricultral as is Illinois. I would really like you to come to the area of bradford county I hunt and try to grow some corn on some of the side hills up here!!!! I for one dont want the game commission to become some kind of share cropper for us. If you have visited any of the game lands recently you would see they are doing alot for the game, including alot of food plots and they are getting better about starting these kind of projects!!! Lack of funding for years prohibited this. I was amazed recently to see that they even started pruning the old apple orchards on state game lands #36. I would also like to see how much other state DER organizations are putting out as far as food & Cover. Probably alot less than our state does as most do not have the public lands that ours does!!!!!!!!!!!

However with limited manpower, equipment and funding its got to be a tough job. BUT I HAVE SEEN IMPROVEMENT!!! I realize they are not the perfect group as none of us are, I would like to see increased logging of the older forests to promote new forest growth, but I know there is alot more going on in the background within the PGC that i am not aware of as far as Forestry and game management plans. So i'll leave that for them. Dont forget it costs alot of $, manpower and time to clear,plow,disc,lime,fertilize,seed & mow. I know all to well. I only take care of about 4 acres of food plots and it takes me alot of time and several hundreds of $ over the spring and summer!

I didn't post on the poll - but wished I had.

If I were a PA resident - especially with some land, I'd support him 100%. Just because the state might institute a management plan for the general public, doesn't mean you have to follow it (though I think for most it would be wise).

My point is - If you control say 400 acres, and everyone around you is forced to take does, and older bucks (kind of the opposite of what you have now), you could manage your land to take advantage of the situation. DOn't get me wrong, I'm all for taking does and and protecting young bucks, but think of what you could accomplish. By offering food plots, and sanctuary, you could take your does, and up the plan a notch and make your goal 3-1/2 year old bucks within a couple years. In states where no restrictions exist (NY) most of us are trying to manage for 2-1/2 year old bucks, with the occasional 3-1/2 year old on small properties.

Assume that the plan was in place today, and you wanted to increase your deer sightings, and average buck age, could you do it? Of course you could. Buckmagnent, your area sounds great now, think how much better it could be. Cardeer, your situation is a bit more bleek, you say you hunt a week and see 5 deer. With the Alt plan, you would see 2-1/2 deer per week - but they would be better deer, I'm sure that's your fear. And honestly, it might be realized until the habitat rebounds either through management by the state on your forests (through cutting and food plots per your suggestion), or naturally as less deer browse the understory(which might take many years).

If the Alt plan goes through tomorrow, many of you hunting barren woodlands would have to reconsider where you hunt, how you hunt and what would need to be done to increase your deer sightings/population. Mostly it would require increasing the carrying capacity of the land. There is nothing in the Alt plan that I've read, that would stop anyone from doing this.

Biologically, the state needs to reduce the herd, or increase the carrying capcity. Unlike NorthJeff's situation, Winterkill is not a big concern. The state has decided to "manage less deer" (Buckmagnet's words), yes, but if you increase the carrying capicity, or its already high like in Buckmagnet's case, I doubt you'd see less deer at all, just better ones. This is the case in Iowa, Kansas, etc.

For those who think the PGC should increase the carrying capacity or farm more land than they do now, take this tour and it will open your eyes as to why that's not possible in upstate PA. Even if you have to drive 6 hours to get there, do it, it's worth it. The May tour is the best time of year to see the problems.


"The tours are set to start from the game lands buildings on SGL # 44 which is located off of Route 949 about 9 miles south of Ridgway. Turn left just before the two bridges over the railroad tracks and Toby Creek.

We will travel by vehicle from site to site, with some short walks, to examine several areas. Wear comfortable outdoor clothing and dress for the season. After the tours we will try to have some food and refreshments prepared.

These are always a good time and I encourage you to bring the family.

Both tours are set to start at 1:00 PM.

Set tour dates are:

Saturday, May 25 at 1:00 PM - Spend the morning hunting turkey then join us in the afternoon.

Sunday, October 6 at 1:00 PM - Come for the weekend. Archery hunt, on Saturday, then join us for Sunday's tour. We do have some good hunting.

For those that want to make it an hunting experience I would be happy to provide some advise on good locations. There is so much public land that I can promise a place for all takers.

John and I also argeed that we would do tours, on other dates, if groups get together and want a tour. So you tell us when you want a tour and we will do our best to work it in and set it up.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County"

Great post Farm Hunter

The area I hunt is farm country. You can't get in your car and drive ten minutes without seeing a farm. We have corn, alfalfa, clover, and wheat planted by farmers. We have an awsome acron crop each year. The deer have so much food from farmers, that they don't enter the woods and eat everything. They only thing that I have ever seen deer eat in the woods is acorns. They all head out to the fields in the evening and eat some corn, a little alfalfa, and some clover. There is plenty of food left over through the winter that deer don't starve. We have a pretty high amount of deer around here, but the caraying capacity is even larger. Within a square mile of my house, there are 12 HUGE corn fields, 5 clover fields, 8 alfalfa fields, and three wheat fields. I mean, the area is all food. I have come to the conclusion that I will just leave the managing up the PGC, they have a VERY HARD task in front of them. The northern part of Pennsylvania is ENTIRELY different the southern part where I live. Trust, I have a camp in Cooks Forest, I travel up to Ridgeway all the time. The woods up there are NOTHING like the woods down there. I am not trying to offend any people who hunt in the Big Woods of Northern Pennsylvania, but they aren't that great of habitat for deer. I have walked through the Game Lands up there, I have been through the area. The only thing on the forest floor is ferns. The trees are all huge, you never see saplings in the woods. There is little farming up there. I havn't really seen THICK BEDDING cover liket he stuff around here. I guess that you would just have to hunt in my area. The woods are full of all different stages of growth. In the middle of a bunch of HUGE white oaks, there are sapling and crab apple trees. The bedding area around here is LITERALLY INSANE. It is SO thick. Deer around here bed in areas of knocked down trees that are covered/surrounded by green briar that is sometimes probablly 15 feet tall. You LITERALLY have to crawl on hands and kness to get into these areas. Heck, alot of the woods around here have lawn grass growing on the forest floor. Seriously. It isn't like the big woods up north. The forest floor up there is either loose/sandy soil, ferns, or decaying pine needles. You can see for over a hundred yards in some of the big woods up north, down here, even in the winter, you will RARELY be able to see past 60 yards. It is just to thick. We don't live in a very "MOUNTANIOUS" area. We have some big hills and deep gully's, but for the most part, it is pretty flat around here. The areas are just so diverse. The PGC is going to have the biggest war they have ever had in trying to get BOTH areas to have a good, healthy deer herd. Just look in my signature, those size deer are COMMON in my area. That is no joke either, the bucks around here are HUGE. Up north, the deer aren't so big. Alot of hunters will have to change the way they hunt and I believe that scares them more than anything else. They won't be able to go around doing drives and scaring 50 deer out to a group of 100 hunters. Hunters will have to skillfully hunt the deer. They won't be seeing deer every two minutes and they wont be taking any shot at any deer. It is going to be a HUGE change, but it will help keep the woods a safer place to hunt. I know that people up north don't see nearly as many deer as us South Western PA hunters do, but trust me, it is for the best. Which is more important to you, seeing a lot of deer or seeing few deer but the deer will be healthy, bigger, stronger, and possibly even happier.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"

Buck Magnet: That's exactly my point. The habitat/food is missing in the northern PA, and it won't get up to potential until the deer density is FIRST lowered so that the food can get ahead of the deer. You can't "build-up" the food supply, you need to take the deer density down to the point where some food gets past the deer. Then you can begin to build up the deer herd again but never back to the levels it was in years past.

Where I hunt in Berks is like you describe in Indiana co.

grundsow

I agree with you, but I would like to see the PGC plant food plots on the State Game Lands up north. I mean, you can help the herd by planting food, but it isn't going to do it all. If the PGC planted food plots and cut the herd down, then the area would have healthier deer and more food.

Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"

Someone on an ealier post that I read said that in some of the midwestern states the guys out there wouldn't be caught dead with a small buck in the back of their truck, it's almost taboo out there to kill a scrub. You know, I've hunted Illinois and that's such a true statement and I couldn't help but think about how PA's culture is so totally the opposite. No, we are never going to be the midwest but it wouldn't hurt to try a little as long as it doesn't go overboard. In most areas come gun season if it's brown it's down in PA. That's a culture thats been beat into this state's hunters for a long time. Can you even imagine a guy on the first day of rifle season on a mountain passing up a buck cause it was a 1.5 year old and not yet mature, that's just not PA. There are a lot of guys in this state who hunt a couple days a year and when they do all they care about is killing something and they could care less about having a healthy deer herd in this state or about letting some of these bucks God for bid live a couple years. That mentality is going to be a hard one to change. I've seen some people during gun season that are so out of control and so wrapped up in killing something that they do some pretty scary things. In other words, I'm for the changes, go Alt ( on most things anyhow) but good luck in convincing the 1.3 million hunters in this state.

Natebook, last season we had just under 1 million and according to the surveys most hunters (65-80%) are willing to try the new proposals. Now all we have to do is watch it work. (Assuming we get past the April meeting and the push by a noisy few to go against science and the majority)

BTBowhunter, who is taking these polls, though? They may be getting 65 - 80% approval from the people taking the polls but I'm going to guess most hunters have never taken a poll, the the bigger question is how many hunters have taken a poll, if it's 50% or 75% of the total population than you have the majority but if it's only 5% than your 65- 80% approval rating is not accurate, that's what worries me. I'm not creating an argument cause I'm for the changes and my guess is most people that are against the changes are so because they are not educated on the population problem we have in some areas. Does anyone know what percentage of the total hunter population has taken a poll? Don't get me wrong, I hope your right and all we have to do now is watch it work.

No they didn't poll every hunter. random sampling is a long proven method of conducting a survey or poll. No they arent 100 % accurate but they are typically VERY close. Its done every day from TV ratings to product surveys to hunter surveys to political polls. The bigger concern with polls is in how the questions are asked. I've read the most recent PGC poll and personally think the questions are very fair they're not leading or intended to promote one response or the other. BTW, Polling every hunter would be a huge task. I do like the idea of a survey with each license app but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe it should.