Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
02-27-2002, 07:16 AM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
Do you guys realize that there is an actual QDM organization, and they are the ones that started the QDM movement?
It's at www.qdma.com
Their principles and beliefs are the ones that are being used in PA, as well as over 20 other states. QDM is not new, and there is only 1 set of QDM guidelines and beliefs, that are founded on 1 basic principle: Use only sound scientific research for management. What the herd dictates and needs in your area, to produce the healthiest, natural herd, is QDM. What the deer need will be different in all areas of the country, but the same biological needs apply. There are areas by my house similair to areas Maine in that there are less than 5 deer per square mile, with population densities controlled by the severe winters. These areas need no doe permits. But then you go less than 100 miles away to Menominee county, and there are between 90 and 100 deer per square mile. People continue to under harvest deer in that county, and consequently the deer are 1/2 the body weight of their northern cousins, malnourished, and stunted.
Those two counties have very different needs, but QDM recognizes this, and different sets of harvest strategies are needed for both. That's QDM.
The basic proven principles that apply to all areas of the country to produce healthy deer, are: The correct carrying capacity of the land, age structure, and sex ratios.
For example, for MI, the southern 1/2 of the lower Peninsula needs a 4 point on a side rule to protects at least 85% of the yearling bucks, and many does need to be harvested because of overpopulated habitat. In the Norther Upper Peninsula, along the Lake Superior shoreline, only a 3 point on a side rule is needed to protect 85% of the yearlings, and no does need to be shot. The population in the north is controlled by the severe winters, and the spring/summer/fall habitat is actually underutalized. Those are both examples of QDM methods of harvest-taking into account local needs to produce the healthiest herd within the area. In Georgia they need a 15" minimum spread to protect the majority of the yearlings, and other states need different rules.
The bottom line is, QDM is not 1 set of regulations for every area, only one set of bioligically proven principles, used to determine needs in a given area. The various rules or regulations, dictated by local herd dynamics, take off from there.
To say QDM means this to this person, or that to that person, is partly true, depending on the area, but the same biolical principles apply to both. That's QDM.
You can't say QDM will not work in your area, that's like saying in one area we don't need healthy deer, but in another area we do. QDM is about producing quality, healthy, animals, through sound, scientificly proven, management tactics, influenced by your particular area.
Healthy, quality animals can only be produced in certain areas??????
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
It's at www.qdma.com
Their principles and beliefs are the ones that are being used in PA, as well as over 20 other states. QDM is not new, and there is only 1 set of QDM guidelines and beliefs, that are founded on 1 basic principle: Use only sound scientific research for management. What the herd dictates and needs in your area, to produce the healthiest, natural herd, is QDM. What the deer need will be different in all areas of the country, but the same biological needs apply. There are areas by my house similair to areas Maine in that there are less than 5 deer per square mile, with population densities controlled by the severe winters. These areas need no doe permits. But then you go less than 100 miles away to Menominee county, and there are between 90 and 100 deer per square mile. People continue to under harvest deer in that county, and consequently the deer are 1/2 the body weight of their northern cousins, malnourished, and stunted.
Those two counties have very different needs, but QDM recognizes this, and different sets of harvest strategies are needed for both. That's QDM.
The basic proven principles that apply to all areas of the country to produce healthy deer, are: The correct carrying capacity of the land, age structure, and sex ratios.
For example, for MI, the southern 1/2 of the lower Peninsula needs a 4 point on a side rule to protects at least 85% of the yearling bucks, and many does need to be harvested because of overpopulated habitat. In the Norther Upper Peninsula, along the Lake Superior shoreline, only a 3 point on a side rule is needed to protect 85% of the yearlings, and no does need to be shot. The population in the north is controlled by the severe winters, and the spring/summer/fall habitat is actually underutalized. Those are both examples of QDM methods of harvest-taking into account local needs to produce the healthiest herd within the area. In Georgia they need a 15" minimum spread to protect the majority of the yearlings, and other states need different rules.
The bottom line is, QDM is not 1 set of regulations for every area, only one set of bioligically proven principles, used to determine needs in a given area. The various rules or regulations, dictated by local herd dynamics, take off from there.
To say QDM means this to this person, or that to that person, is partly true, depending on the area, but the same biolical principles apply to both. That's QDM.
You can't say QDM will not work in your area, that's like saying in one area we don't need healthy deer, but in another area we do. QDM is about producing quality, healthy, animals, through sound, scientificly proven, management tactics, influenced by your particular area.
Healthy, quality animals can only be produced in certain areas??????
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
02-27-2002, 07:29 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
Mainehunter, I have a cottage on George's Pond outside of Franklin. You're dead on for your state. The Fish and Game does a great job. The only limiting factor for your herd is the fact that all they grow is blueberris and pine trees up there, which don't feed the deer through winter. And the damn coyotes.
Down here it's different, we have 30 deer per square mile, and enough food to keep them fed, in most cases. The problem is, that food is often peoples bushes, flowers, corn, ect. That food is often right next to a road, too. Our Fish and Game doesn't manage for the benefit of the deer, they manage for the purpose of keeping their jobs. Politics has more say than nature. People that get so worked up about this stuff are those who want it to go back to being managed by the biologists, like your state is. If that reduces the herd to 20 deer per square mile, let's the bucks grow past spikes and forkies,and keeps my truck from getting smashed up so often, even better! The only downfall is you may have to pass up a spike or two the first year, and the naysayers don't want to do that. That's the only reason some folks don't like it.
Down here it's different, we have 30 deer per square mile, and enough food to keep them fed, in most cases. The problem is, that food is often peoples bushes, flowers, corn, ect. That food is often right next to a road, too. Our Fish and Game doesn't manage for the benefit of the deer, they manage for the purpose of keeping their jobs. Politics has more say than nature. People that get so worked up about this stuff are those who want it to go back to being managed by the biologists, like your state is. If that reduces the herd to 20 deer per square mile, let's the bucks grow past spikes and forkies,and keeps my truck from getting smashed up so often, even better! The only downfall is you may have to pass up a spike or two the first year, and the naysayers don't want to do that. That's the only reason some folks don't like it.
02-27-2002, 08:21 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ellsworth Maine USA
Posts: 377
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
6pt-Franklin is a nice area. It's close to me and I have a lot of friends that live and hunt there. I have however always gone "back home" so to speak. I go to the town of Searsmont in Waldo County. There are more deer there and one of the last sizable pieces of public land that I'm aware of. Of course it helps that I grew up hunting that area so I'm very familiar with it.
The deer are so plentiful there that they actually had more any-deer permits than applicants for that wildlife management district this past season. That was the first time that I am aware of that happening in this state. I think there was another district that experienced the same thing too. That resulted in some applicants getting 2 any-deer permits. I understand that's the norm in PA but it's something we dream about up here.
Whether the cause is increased numbers of deer or decreased numbers of hunters I can't say. Either way I'm sure the state biologists will make adjustments accordingly.
The deer are so plentiful there that they actually had more any-deer permits than applicants for that wildlife management district this past season. That was the first time that I am aware of that happening in this state. I think there was another district that experienced the same thing too. That resulted in some applicants getting 2 any-deer permits. I understand that's the norm in PA but it's something we dream about up here.
Whether the cause is increased numbers of deer or decreased numbers of hunters I can't say. Either way I'm sure the state biologists will make adjustments accordingly.
02-27-2002, 08:42 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
My famile hunts on Hardwood Hill, beautiful area, but few deer. That cottage on that lake is probably my favorite place in the world. Can't wait until May, I'm heading up for some smallie fishing.
02-27-2002, 01:03 PM
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Indiana PA USA
Posts: 3,656
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
What I was saying is that True QDM as defined by the movie Buck Fever isn't feasible in most areas. It isn't feasible to pass up 160 class deer to shoot 180 class deer in Pennsylvania. It just isn't going to happen. I am not saying that there are no 180 class bucks here, there are, but it just isn't feasible for everyone to pass up those 160 bucks to get the few 180" bucks around. Thats what I meant by that statement.
Here is another question for everyone. Do you think that the PGC is doing all of these management programs to help out the deer herd, make money, or a little of both. Personally, I say a little of both. I guess that is the best route. They will help out the herd, then they will have money to spend on helping out the herd even more.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
Here is another question for everyone. Do you think that the PGC is doing all of these management programs to help out the deer herd, make money, or a little of both. Personally, I say a little of both. I guess that is the best route. They will help out the herd, then they will have money to spend on helping out the herd even more.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
02-27-2002, 02:11 PM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
Posts: 186
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
I believe they are doing it for the money as well as for the overall condition of the herd. Heck... if they can help the herd and make some money in the meantime... no sweat... so long as the funds are properly allocated and accounted for. Also... I believe they they have our best interest in mind... even though I'm sure to get slammed for that crack. [ask me if I care]
I've heard people say, "Why do you need to know how their funds are allocated?" I say, "Why shouldn't I know. They work for me. I pay their salaries."
Finally... I hate to think PA will be a lease hunt only state.. but it sure looks like it might be headed that way.
-DT
I've heard people say, "Why do you need to know how their funds are allocated?" I say, "Why shouldn't I know. They work for me. I pay their salaries."
Finally... I hate to think PA will be a lease hunt only state.. but it sure looks like it might be headed that way.
-DT
02-27-2002, 02:12 PM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
True QDM as desribed by Buck Fever? How about true QDM desribed by the QDMA. Sorry if I'm harping on this, but there is only 1 QDMA, everything else is a fake, or a futile attempt for the justification of a Trophy Management indeavor.
How can this be about the money? If anything hunters will be lost over this, not gained. That's the reason we still have baiting in MI. The right thing to do is get rid of it, but it is estimated the loss of gun-hunters could be close to 300,000. I say so what, but I think the state likes those extra license sales.
That is why Alt is so bold. He realizes that the management of the deer herd can be sued for and taken away by special interest groups, if it can be proven that the current regulations are detrimental to the herd. So at the seemingly bewilderment of some hunting groups, Alt is standing up and doing the right thing, regardless of a loss in license sales.
I do beleive that a temporary drop in license sale will be followed by long-term increases, due to increased support and respect, following future hunting seasons and harvest results.
I actually have enjoyed seeing deer in the Aleghany National Forest at 400+ yards in a browse-free woods due to extreme populations. I've never seen deer that far in the woods-even went out and bought a high-power scope so I could see what they are. What a difference though if the population comes in line and the woods are filled with thickets, saplings, and clearcuts-without fences.
And yes, even though I've only been hunting and visiting PA for 9 years, I've still seen deer starving(actually already frozen to death), in northern PA. I found 5 frozen stiff in a clearing, evidently caught out in a storm, and torn apart from coyotes-what a sight.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
How can this be about the money? If anything hunters will be lost over this, not gained. That's the reason we still have baiting in MI. The right thing to do is get rid of it, but it is estimated the loss of gun-hunters could be close to 300,000. I say so what, but I think the state likes those extra license sales.
That is why Alt is so bold. He realizes that the management of the deer herd can be sued for and taken away by special interest groups, if it can be proven that the current regulations are detrimental to the herd. So at the seemingly bewilderment of some hunting groups, Alt is standing up and doing the right thing, regardless of a loss in license sales.
I do beleive that a temporary drop in license sale will be followed by long-term increases, due to increased support and respect, following future hunting seasons and harvest results.
I actually have enjoyed seeing deer in the Aleghany National Forest at 400+ yards in a browse-free woods due to extreme populations. I've never seen deer that far in the woods-even went out and bought a high-power scope so I could see what they are. What a difference though if the population comes in line and the woods are filled with thickets, saplings, and clearcuts-without fences.
And yes, even though I've only been hunting and visiting PA for 9 years, I've still seen deer starving(actually already frozen to death), in northern PA. I found 5 frozen stiff in a clearing, evidently caught out in a storm, and torn apart from coyotes-what a sight.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
02-27-2002, 03:11 PM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
Would culling 3.5 yr old basket racks be considered QDM? I was wondering, because it seems culling for a trait humans desire wouldn't seem to have anything to do with it. The deer will determine who breeds, and passes on genetics, right? And we can't judge the multitude of other traits that constitute a "superior" animal, right? It would seem that you should let all the bucks grow to a certain age, regardless of what their rack looks like, but everywhere I see QDM proclaimed, they reccomend shooting the inferior racked bucks. Seems to be what you're calling "trophy" management to me. Is this an accurate assessment?
This isn't a comment on AR's, I'm aware most hunters can't age deer on the hoof, and it's the only logical way to spare the younger deer. I'm in no way saying you should manage around the .0001% of bucks who stay spikes, or the few who have 10pts at 1.5yrs old, either.
Just wondering.
This isn't a comment on AR's, I'm aware most hunters can't age deer on the hoof, and it's the only logical way to spare the younger deer. I'm in no way saying you should manage around the .0001% of bucks who stay spikes, or the few who have 10pts at 1.5yrs old, either.
Just wondering.
02-27-2002, 03:29 PM
#29
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 93
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
Where I hunt in Maine any deer that I have a tag for is a "quality deer" and I have no problem "managing" any one of them. Like Mainehunter said, I'll let the state decide what the herd needs, and though I pass on smaller deer early, there isn't anything wrong with an 80lb. skipper late in the hunt. YUM! DLuke
02-27-2002, 03:43 PM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
Posts: 186
RE: Do YOU REALLY practice Quality Deer Management????
"Would culling 3.5 yr old basket racks be considered QDM?"
Not sure if that was directed at me or not... but to answer the question... I think not.
Culling a basket rack is trophy management.
-DT
I won't cull an animal unless I believe it to be truly injured. I admit to liking large racked deer... but harvesting lesser rack bucks for the sake of the gene pool is not my style.
Edited by - PA DropTine on 02/27/2002 16:50:36
Not sure if that was directed at me or not... but to answer the question... I think not.
Culling a basket rack is trophy management.
-DT
I won't cull an animal unless I believe it to be truly injured. I admit to liking large racked deer... but harvesting lesser rack bucks for the sake of the gene pool is not my style.
Edited by - PA DropTine on 02/27/2002 16:50:36