BTBowhunter Well said AGAIN. Please Give us a break when everyone is trying to GUESS on what his aganda might be. YOU are only assuming about what it may really be doing. SO if you stop assuming you will stop making an A$$ out of you and me. Lets give the guy a chance and see what happens. I doubt that he will wipe out the whole heard in one or two years. By then In say two more years we should be able to see what the heard is heading for. He is a hunter be it gun or whatevey who cares he is a fellow hunter. We need to see what happens before we through that first stone. I will be the first to go against him if things get way out of hand. But I will at least give him a chance. I bet this guy knows more than most of what is going on around here. He has a lot of people who work around the state that he gets info from not just one or two people.

Brian

NJ_Bowhntr Have you been to one of Dr. Alt's presentations?

It was brought up about why didn't they try this in specific areas as a test instead of state wide. He said that was the original idea. However when they went to these two counties that they had chosen because of the poor quality of their habitat, they were met with overwellming oposition. He said they wanted to run them out of town. These 2 counties were Center and Armstrong. The argument that they got there was if they do that in just those two counties then everyone there would go else where to hunt and kill small bucks out of spite. Then they were concerned that in a few years when they did have larger bucks because of the point restiction that there would be a large influx of hunters into there counties to hunt these bucks. Which would result in an over kill of bucks.

You say that Pa. hasn't done any research on this. Wrong! Obviously you haven't done any research. They have been gathering data for this program for the last 2.5 years. They have been visiting meat lockers all accross the state to gather information on the health of the deer herd,age, body weight fat content etc. They have also been doing things like picking up road kill does to examine the fetusis to determine when they were being concieved. What this tells them is the time span in which the breeding period runs. Which they found it varied from as early as Sept. 9th to as late Feb. This study is important in that it tells them that there are to many does for the mature bucks to breed in the time span of what should be "the rut". Therefore leaving some does to be bred by younger bucks or so late that the fawns are born to late in the year to survive a bad winter. Also by the birthing period being streched out for a longer time the fawns are more subject to predation.

Their research is an on going proccess, they are radio collaring bucks and fawns right now and plan to radio collar does in the future.

They also explored the possibility of check stations to gather info. but took into consideration that their already mandatory harvest report card system is only 46 percent accurate. Meaning that only 46% of the deer taken get reported. How did they come up with this? While they were visiting meat lockers they took down information such as back tag numbers and cross referenced them to harvest report cards. So when hunters arn't doing something thats mandatory what makes you think they will do somthing thats voluntary.

Again I feel that before someone bashes the ideas of someone thats trying to help you should do your homework and know the facts.

God Bless & Good Hunting
LM/NAHC
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Member Ducks Unlimited

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since everyone admits this is new territory, why not do it in selected area's and evaluate it's success there? Personally, I think it will show benefits, and it will give all hunters more time to warm up to the idea.

The primary reason I oppose the current proposal is one of choice, and hunters enjoying the hunting experience. I think that hunters should have a choice in their pursuit of deer. Not everyone hunts for big racks, some people get great satisfaction from taking a spike or four pointer, and since they pay the same amount of money as the trophy hunters of the state, they should be permitted to enjoy hunting as they please.

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I never said I didn't like the idea of antler restrictions, in fact, I said just the opposite. This above was my objection, which no one seemed to pay attention to.

BBHPete, as far as doing research, I know they started two years ago. In a state as large, and diverse as Pa., two years of sampling data is just that, a start.


BTBowhunter
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I'm curious, how did it become clear to you that the health of the herd is not the issue here?
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Dr. Alt has already admitted that the health of the herd varies from one area to the other, so how can one blanket proposal be a fix-all for such diverse conditions?

And BT, I don't know of any wildlife officials that disagree with Alt. They are just towing the company line, and many of them likely believe it's good for Pa., which I haven't disputed. Again, my objection is to the statewide aspect. Hunters who want to hunt for something other than a nice rack, should be able to do so.

BBHPete
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>They also explored the possibility of check stations to gather info. but took into consideration that their already mandatory harvest report card system is only 46 percent accurate. Meaning that only 46% of the deer taken get reported. How did they come up with this? While they were visiting meat lockers they took down information such as back tag numbers and cross referenced them to harvest report cards. So when hunters arn't doing something thats mandatory what makes you think they will do somthing thats voluntary.
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Pete, I never said check stations should be voluntary, they should be mandatory. I'm betting you would get better than 46 % compliance. Another point to ponder is this; if people are so reluctant to follow the procedure for checking a deer, what makes you think they will abide by a 3 or 4 point rule? I have more faith in all Pa hunters than that, I'm sure the compliance in check stations would be at or above 90 percent.

NJ_Bowhntr I agree I to would like to see madatory check stations. This question was rasied at the presentation I was at. Dr. Alt said it was considered but the commission felt it would be very costly due to having to purchase scales and supplies for the stations. He also said they were skeptical as to whether it would work because of the inconvinence it would cause for the hunters with having to wait in line to check your deer.

God Bless & Good Hunting
LM/NAHC
Member NRA
Member P&Y CLUB
Member QDMA
Member Ducks Unlimited

NJB, When I asked if any wildlife scientists have disputed Alts ideas I wasn't talking just about the PGC. Alt is respected sll over the world. The bottom line is that no one has disputed him by using science as their argument.
I also would like to ask you again, have you been to one of his presentations?

I believe I answered your objection to the sweeping all at once changes as well. They are intended to start us in the right direction and WILL BE MODIFIED as results come in from research he is conducting now.

BT Bowhunter

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I believe I answered your objection to the sweeping all at once changes as well. They are intended to start us in the right direction and WILL BE MODIFIED as results come in from research he is conducting now.
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Maybe it (AR) is the right direction for you, me, and others who routinely pass up small bucks for a chance at one a little bigger, but what about other every-day hunters who enjoy taking a deer, any deer including a spike or four-pointer? I'm betting they don't think it's the right direction for the type of hunting they enjoy. Which brings me to the primary reason I said I objected to the current plan; the reason no one has addressed yet. What is wrong with allowing hunters in some area's to hunt for any buck?

Here is something to think about I just attended one of Alt's meetings on the 21st.He stated that this next years buck kill with A/R will be about 100,000 down from what he said should be 200,000 bucks.Then in one year the buck pop. would triple these are his own words.Why if there are too many deer now and they are eating every thing in sight would you want to triple the buck population.Maybe because this person you say knows nothing is right that the 2.5 year old bucks which tripled will be shot in one year and where is the deer herd going from there.Also cardeer I for one do know like you that it is to sell more doe permits as alt already at the meeting told an non-resident that he would have no problem this year getting a doe permit.So there will be more permits allotted this year then before more money.

NJB
The problem I see with allowing &quot;any buck&quot; in certain areas is the same reason I agree with what's being done. It allows the immature bucks to continue to be the ones to reproduce. The buck doe ratio would stay out of whack unless the doe #'s killed were really high.

As for those guys happy with any deer, why isn't a doe or two as good as that spike or forkie? Ive seen guys proud as can be with a spike and thats ok. Whats not ok is that same guy saying &quot;at least I didn't have to settle for a doe&quot; and that is a common mentality in Pa. One that I believe is just beginning to change, thanks, in part, to Gary Alt.

Well said BTB

Brian

BH3, I think he wants to triple the buck pop. and lower the doe pop. This will help to bring the herd into balance. This should be a continuing cycle for a few years....then act on what's happened thus far in a couple years.