A challenge to the Alt naysayers
04-10-2004, 07:49 PM
#11
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 491
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
The first thing I would do is revise the OWDD goals to reflect the true carrying capacity of all the habitat that the deer utilize. Here are the goals Mich. uses to manage their herd.
And, here is what the deer managers in Wisc. have to say about their herd.
Then I would divide the current WMU's in to much smaller units. Wisc. currrently has 130 units and Mich. has over 118 units. If they can manage the herd with that many different units ,why does PA only have 22 units?
The next thing I would do is repeal AR in every unit that isn't at its OWDD goal. If a WMU is at its goal then a survey should be taken of the hunter and landowners and if 66% approve Ar, than AR should be implemented for a five year trial period ,just like the Mich. plan.
In any unit that is 50% above its OWDD goal ,I would implement an earn a buck program for all seasons that occur prior to the Dec. rifle season. That would be the best way to address the problem in suburban and farming areas.
In any unit that is double or triple its OWDD goal ,based on the true carrying capacity of the habitat, I would allow hunters to use any legal weapon to harvest any deer from Oct.1 to Jan.31. They would be allowed 1 antlered buck with spikes greater than 3" and 1 antlerless deer for each tag they were issued. If that failed to reach the goals then I would issue an additional tag for every anterless deer harvested.
If you believe in herd reduction ,as I do, that is the way to achieve the goal ,instead of sending conflicting messages by implementing AR before the herd is reduced.
Michigan has a total of 58,000 square miles, 45,000 of which is suitable deer habitat. It has been estimated that the maximum carrying capacity is around 2.2 million deer or 48.9 deer per square mile. The desired population goal as stated by the DNR is 1.3 million. This is 60% of the carrying capacity or 28.9 deer per square mile. This 60% goal is a proper goal. Many studies have shown that this population density will produce the maximum sustained yield, while at the same time insure deer health and the habitat, with normal maintenance continuous forage productivity.
Currently, overwinter population goals for most units in the
north are set at approximately 65-70% of the estimated maximum
In the farmlands, there is an abundance of food for deer.
Maximum biological carrying capacity in this region may be as
high as 100 deer per square mile of deer range—and much higher
in some units (Figure 16). The management challenge here is different
than other areas of the state. Large harvests of antlerless
deer are required to hold the population at levels that meet social
carrying capacity. Overwinter population goals for most units are
less than 50% of maximum biological carrying capacity, but with
such a large carrying capacity, that’s still a huge number of deer.
north are set at approximately 65-70% of the estimated maximum
In the farmlands, there is an abundance of food for deer.
Maximum biological carrying capacity in this region may be as
high as 100 deer per square mile of deer range—and much higher
in some units (Figure 16). The management challenge here is different
than other areas of the state. Large harvests of antlerless
deer are required to hold the population at levels that meet social
carrying capacity. Overwinter population goals for most units are
less than 50% of maximum biological carrying capacity, but with
such a large carrying capacity, that’s still a huge number of deer.
The next thing I would do is repeal AR in every unit that isn't at its OWDD goal. If a WMU is at its goal then a survey should be taken of the hunter and landowners and if 66% approve Ar, than AR should be implemented for a five year trial period ,just like the Mich. plan.
In any unit that is 50% above its OWDD goal ,I would implement an earn a buck program for all seasons that occur prior to the Dec. rifle season. That would be the best way to address the problem in suburban and farming areas.
In any unit that is double or triple its OWDD goal ,based on the true carrying capacity of the habitat, I would allow hunters to use any legal weapon to harvest any deer from Oct.1 to Jan.31. They would be allowed 1 antlered buck with spikes greater than 3" and 1 antlerless deer for each tag they were issued. If that failed to reach the goals then I would issue an additional tag for every anterless deer harvested.
If you believe in herd reduction ,as I do, that is the way to achieve the goal ,instead of sending conflicting messages by implementing AR before the herd is reduced.
04-11-2004, 02:32 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
DVD don't let deerslayer get to you I love the 4 pt restriction too.
No sunday hunting. Reason there are people who like to use the woods who don't want to get shot at. And yes it does happen and if you don't think so YOUR NUTS. I mean people who ride horses or whatever. I know right now thier is no sunday hunting I mean just keep it that way.
No buck hunting for one year. HMMM [:-]
Change seasons around like start date for specific weapons. Get doe harvest done before the rut not during the rut or after it. We don't need bucks to waste there energy breeding a doe only to get shot 3 hours later.
Maybe all are not really serious but some are you just have to figure it out or maybe I am but don't want to get raked over the coals
Brian
Great topic BTB
No sunday hunting. Reason there are people who like to use the woods who don't want to get shot at. And yes it does happen and if you don't think so YOUR NUTS. I mean people who ride horses or whatever. I know right now thier is no sunday hunting I mean just keep it that way.
No buck hunting for one year. HMMM [:-]
Change seasons around like start date for specific weapons. Get doe harvest done before the rut not during the rut or after it. We don't need bucks to waste there energy breeding a doe only to get shot 3 hours later.
Maybe all are not really serious but some are you just have to figure it out or maybe I am but don't want to get raked over the coals
Brian
Great topic BTB
04-12-2004, 08:51 AM
#13
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Gouldsboro, PA
Posts: 548
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
These wishes only apply to Deer Hunting Seasons:
1. Include Sunday Hunting, especially during Rifle and Muzzleloading seasons
2. Extended Rifle Season, 2 weeks to 3 weeks before or after Dec. 1st
3. Early Muzzleloader season includes doe and buck, could be 1 week after Archery ends
4. Late Muzzleloader season includes in-lines, start 1 week prior to XMAS instead of after
5. Smaller WMU's
6. Expanded DMAP's, doe and buck instead of doe only
7. OK with antler restrictions
8. Start Archery in mid-September, end Oct. 31st
If you notice, I am eally only interested in including Sunday Hunting during Rifle and ML seasons, not Archery.
T
1. Include Sunday Hunting, especially during Rifle and Muzzleloading seasons
2. Extended Rifle Season, 2 weeks to 3 weeks before or after Dec. 1st
3. Early Muzzleloader season includes doe and buck, could be 1 week after Archery ends
4. Late Muzzleloader season includes in-lines, start 1 week prior to XMAS instead of after
5. Smaller WMU's
6. Expanded DMAP's, doe and buck instead of doe only
7. OK with antler restrictions
8. Start Archery in mid-September, end Oct. 31st
If you notice, I am eally only interested in including Sunday Hunting during Rifle and ML seasons, not Archery.
T
04-13-2004, 12:37 PM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
I have to admit that I like Mike's suggestions based on the area that I hunt. However, I realize other areas of the state offer different hunting opportunities than the little corner I hunt in. My suggestions though I do not consider myself an Alt-naysayer are....
1. Sunday Hunting for deer.
2. Smaller DMU/WMU with appropriate adjustment for hunter density in relation to public versus private land.
3. No overlapping seasons during the month of October. Move muzzeloader-Junior/Senior rifle to November.
4. I would support a small license increase.
5. Expand archery season from mid-September through the usual mid-November but then also extend it to the end of January.
I think that would satisfy my personal wants, needs and desires though I have no idea how it would impact the deer herd.
1. Sunday Hunting for deer.
2. Smaller DMU/WMU with appropriate adjustment for hunter density in relation to public versus private land.
3. No overlapping seasons during the month of October. Move muzzeloader-Junior/Senior rifle to November.
4. I would support a small license increase.
5. Expand archery season from mid-September through the usual mid-November but then also extend it to the end of January.
I think that would satisfy my personal wants, needs and desires though I have no idea how it would impact the deer herd.
04-13-2004, 02:34 PM
#15
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
Some quite interesting perspectives. [&:]
Although not an Alt-naysayer, I would like to toss in my thoughts:
1. Institute sunday hunting, regardless of season or quarry.
2. Start archery sept 15, even if its just a doe only time.
3. Archery doe season in SRA runs sept 15 to jan 31, it never goes out.
4. Remove the jr/sr rifles from october. Although I don't like it, I'd let the ML season stay during that time.
5. Smaller DMU's and mandated reporting with stiff fines for violations.
6. Expand the after christmas season to include flintlocks, inlines, Xbows, regular archery, pistols of straight walled caliber, and shotguns. (basically an anything but rifle season.
7. Make pistols of straight walled caliber legal in SRA during deeer season.
Although not an Alt-naysayer, I would like to toss in my thoughts:
1. Institute sunday hunting, regardless of season or quarry.
2. Start archery sept 15, even if its just a doe only time.
3. Archery doe season in SRA runs sept 15 to jan 31, it never goes out.
4. Remove the jr/sr rifles from october. Although I don't like it, I'd let the ML season stay during that time.
5. Smaller DMU's and mandated reporting with stiff fines for violations.
6. Expand the after christmas season to include flintlocks, inlines, Xbows, regular archery, pistols of straight walled caliber, and shotguns. (basically an anything but rifle season.
7. Make pistols of straight walled caliber legal in SRA during deeer season.
04-13-2004, 02:52 PM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: milford Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 140
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
DD, Mike, now give us ideas with real world pressures, considerations, politics, mistrust, tradition, small but organized resistence, etc. etc. etc. etc figured in.
Myself- I would hire as many more biologists as I could garner support, funding and political backing for. With one leading to the other; ie- policital backing leading to funding, support leading to political backing etc. etc. I would then divide the managment units into as many as I could based on the biologists available to cover those areas. I would continue the studies in place, create a comprehensive list of areas in need of study, create a timeline outline of the order and time frames I'd like to get these studies off the ground and give the public an idea of where we are heading and how we will get there. Most of all I would let the biology, the studies dictate the direction I go in, the results from the direction I go in guide further study, changing and fine tuning my direction as we went, and oh yeah I'd do all that without ruffling any feathers, bowing to politics, tradition, small groups of discontent, personal and professional jealousy of those against me, financial/budgeting contraints, etc. I WOULDN"T WANT TO MANAGE PA's DEER PROGRAM FROM A COZY OFFICE IN CALIFORNIA LET ALONE MICHAGEN OR WISCONSON. Watch out for CWD out thier DD. DD, Mike, where's your statements about constraining what you would like to do with what you can in reality do, when you would like to do something and when you can in reality implement some change. Let's keep hammering the person who has to put up with the real pressures of running the deer management program shall we. Do tell us more. Man, PAB, I love bowhunting too, how do we get Gary to go for that longer season?!! Juniorpc
Myself- I would hire as many more biologists as I could garner support, funding and political backing for. With one leading to the other; ie- policital backing leading to funding, support leading to political backing etc. etc. I would then divide the managment units into as many as I could based on the biologists available to cover those areas. I would continue the studies in place, create a comprehensive list of areas in need of study, create a timeline outline of the order and time frames I'd like to get these studies off the ground and give the public an idea of where we are heading and how we will get there. Most of all I would let the biology, the studies dictate the direction I go in, the results from the direction I go in guide further study, changing and fine tuning my direction as we went, and oh yeah I'd do all that without ruffling any feathers, bowing to politics, tradition, small groups of discontent, personal and professional jealousy of those against me, financial/budgeting contraints, etc. I WOULDN"T WANT TO MANAGE PA's DEER PROGRAM FROM A COZY OFFICE IN CALIFORNIA LET ALONE MICHAGEN OR WISCONSON. Watch out for CWD out thier DD. DD, Mike, where's your statements about constraining what you would like to do with what you can in reality do, when you would like to do something and when you can in reality implement some change. Let's keep hammering the person who has to put up with the real pressures of running the deer management program shall we. Do tell us more. Man, PAB, I love bowhunting too, how do we get Gary to go for that longer season?!! Juniorpc
04-13-2004, 03:01 PM
#17
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Jim Thorpe, PA
Posts: 536
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
Lets deal in reality. The question asked was a fantasy one, like "what would you do if you were president for a day" or as in "Bruce Almighty". I have as much chance of seeing what I'd like done as you have in longer seasons and Sunday hunting. I offered my views.
04-13-2004, 06:31 PM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
Here's an easy idea as far as I'm concerned.......not as thorough as a check station for sure, but better than what we have now.
Make it mandatory that all Harvest Report Cards are sent back regardless of success Cross reference each card via a number against the license sold (general or Antlerless) and make it a fine of some sort for each one not sent back. if we went to a computer generated license like many other states, this information would pop up on a screen informing the clerk that a report card was not handed in.........pay the fee right there or no new license.
They are already printing these cards, postage paid so why not actually MAKE the hunters use them. Won't cost anything accept the postage paid for each one.
Leave AR's alone........settle down a bit on the doe harvest, maybe actually plant some real food plots on all the game lands. Sunday hunting instead of screwing around with new seasons, moving start dates blah blah blah. What good are extra WEEKDAYS to hunt? For me they mean NOTHING.
Make it mandatory that all Harvest Report Cards are sent back regardless of success Cross reference each card via a number against the license sold (general or Antlerless) and make it a fine of some sort for each one not sent back. if we went to a computer generated license like many other states, this information would pop up on a screen informing the clerk that a report card was not handed in.........pay the fee right there or no new license.
They are already printing these cards, postage paid so why not actually MAKE the hunters use them. Won't cost anything accept the postage paid for each one.
Leave AR's alone........settle down a bit on the doe harvest, maybe actually plant some real food plots on all the game lands. Sunday hunting instead of screwing around with new seasons, moving start dates blah blah blah. What good are extra WEEKDAYS to hunt? For me they mean NOTHING.
04-13-2004, 07:08 PM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
The original point here was to put a few folks on the spot for simply criticizing without any reasonable solutions. We still have a few of those out there but this thread has also pointed out there's a lot of common ground here. I think almost everyone mentioned smaller management units and true deer harvest reporting. The reporting could happen tomorrow if the pgc wants it and smaller dmu's could happen very quickly too but thats would be a tougher task. Maybe we'd all be better off to concentrate together on the things we all know will help.
JMHO
JMHO
04-13-2004, 09:17 PM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tunkhannock, PA USA
Posts: 171
RE: A challenge to the Alt naysayers
1. make BT the head of the PGC
2. Sunday Hunting for BOW ONLY. (that way you wont tick the farmers off)
3. Extend Archery till the saturday B4 thanksgiving.
4. Issue a doe tag with your hunting license.
5. Start rifle deer season the saturday after Thanksgiving (DOE ONLY on that saturday)
6. Concurrent Bear/buck/Doe rifle season statewide
7. Private landowners get as many doe tags as we want.
8. Require a turkey stamp and be able to harvest 2 Gobblers
9. License fee increase to Out of state hunters (Doubled at least!)
10. Keep refining the DMU's
11. Keep the AR restrictions as IS
12. and finally throw some kind of computer virus into DD's puter to stop
making me sick with all the #'s crap!!!![:@]
13. Life inprisonment for poachers!!!!!!!! (we need stronger fines)
14. Anyone caught littering anywhere gets there you know whats cut off!!
2. Sunday Hunting for BOW ONLY. (that way you wont tick the farmers off)
3. Extend Archery till the saturday B4 thanksgiving.
4. Issue a doe tag with your hunting license.
5. Start rifle deer season the saturday after Thanksgiving (DOE ONLY on that saturday)
6. Concurrent Bear/buck/Doe rifle season statewide
7. Private landowners get as many doe tags as we want.
8. Require a turkey stamp and be able to harvest 2 Gobblers
9. License fee increase to Out of state hunters (Doubled at least!)
10. Keep refining the DMU's
11. Keep the AR restrictions as IS
12. and finally throw some kind of computer virus into DD's puter to stop
making me sick with all the #'s crap!!!![:@]
13. Life inprisonment for poachers!!!!!!!! (we need stronger fines)
14. Anyone caught littering anywhere gets there you know whats cut off!!