PA Hardwoods

Funny Stuff BTBowhunter I'm ROFL. It's amazing these people can't see exactly what Dr. Alt speaks about everytime they step into the woods. I guess it is the old cases of people seeing what they want to see.

Deer902

I think that is key in turning the thinking of todays hunters in a different direction. I've been preaching to my family and friends about AR since they were introduced. I have swayed some of their opinions, but others would still rather shoot a spike rather than take the doe standing next to him. Hopefully if AR remain in place for the next couple of years, the "Trophy Hunters" will see that there are bigger buck out there if they wait and a doe tastes just as good if not better than a buck. My definition of Trophy Hunter is one who will shoot any buck just because it is a buck no matter the size.

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BTBowhunter

You're right, 902 hit it right on the head! I think at least some of these guys simply cant admit their frustration with being denied the chance to shoot the first yearling buck they see so they make unsubstantiated claims that the PGC ruining the herd. Selfish motives masquerading as "concern for the deer"

How many times have we all heard "I know it's just a spike, forky, 3 point etc but AT LEAST IT'S A BUCK!!!! Once is too many times to hear that and I've heard it way too many times!

rybohunter

Try having that person who wants to shoot any buck, even though they've killed a boatload in thier time be your Dad, who is also your best hunting/fishing partner, best friend, and have a bond as tight as any father and son. Makes for some interesting conversations sometimes.

I've tried everything I can to nudge him along, including leading by example, even before AR's started. He's so frustrated with not being able to shoot any ol buck, that he hardly hunted at all last year. I don't understand him, and I've tried really hard. At least he hasn't found a reason to stop fishing

Deer902

Thats a tough one Ryan. Just keep passing on those little ones and let him shoot them. In a couple years compare the buck that both of you have shot most recently and see if he changes his mind.

MikeE51848

You know, maybe the reason is he doesn't care about the size of antlers? There are some of us like that.

BTBowhunter

Ok Mike, please explain if you arent like that, if the horns arent important,...... What's wrong with a doe?

MikeE51848

Nothing is wrong with shooting does, I've shot plenty. Some of us are just not into trophy hunting. I've shot, all on public land, an 8 ptr and a 7, along with other smaller bucks in my hunting career. Shooting a doe with the in-line this year was just as thrilling. And I'm probably old enough to be your dad, too. When you get older, your priorities change. Don't be so hard on him. Enjoy your times together no matter what the outcome.

DougE

1.You still didn't answer my first question.Alt is the one using the pgc's numbers.Whether or not they're the exact number's isn't the point.Alt is trying to show a trend by using them.How can we possibly have not decreased the herd if there was an 8% decrease in 2001 followed by two record antlerless harvests?This alone proves that he lied somewhere along the line.

2.You still haven't answerd how his claim of" more and bigger bucks" can come true when the deer density is reduced to les than 15 dpsm.I'm living through that right now and it cant happen.

3.The quality of the average buck will not improve when we rech his deer density goals.A higher percentage of bucks will be 2.5 year older but they won't be any bigger than the 2.5 year olds before ar.Remember,I support ar.I just know it won't make near the difference he claims it would.I belong to a 15000 acre lease that's been practicingit for over 6 year now.The results were good the first few years.hen,the timber company made us let more people in.There used to be about 150 members.Now there's over 600.Due to the increased pressure most bucks that were big enough to shoot,got killed.There hasn't been anything exceptional taken off that lease in two years.That will be the story with most of Pa.Regardless,I still think the benefits of ar are worth it.The results will not be as great as Alt led everyone to believe.

4.Even Kip Adams from the qdm association agree's that the worst the b/d ratio could ever get is 1/3.That's with every adult buck getting killed.Take a harvest of 250000 bucks.If approximately 50000 additional bucks were carried over,that would leave 300000 preseason bucks.A 1/5 ratio would give us 1.5 million doe.Those doe would recruit 1.1 fawns each on average giving us 1.65 million fawns.The total preseason deer population would be 3.45 million deer.That's impossible.Your confusing the b/d ratio with the antlered to antlerless ratio.The adult breeding age deer are the only ones that are factored into the b/d ratio.

5.The only thing the bigger wmu's did was concentrate more tags in areas where hunters had the most access.It did nothing to address area where the deer herd was too large.Most of these areas have limited access.As a result,an overharvest occured in many areas and an underharvest ocured in many places where access was restricted.It's interesting to note tha tmost of the overharvests have occured where the most state timber is.

6.What would I do in the sra's?For staters,I'd issue unlimited tags and a much longer seasons.

7.I'm primarily an archer myself and I have no problem sharing the woods with others.This is one area where I commend Alt.I think killing more does before the rut is agood idea and I welcome increased opportunities for hunters.I give him a thumbs up for this one.

8.I also give him credit for the concurrent seasons.I wasn't sure how they would pan out at forst but I now agree that it was the best approach.

9.Don't get me started on how great he did with the bears.I agree he did alot of good research.However,he was trying to increase the population.That's a stark contrast to what he's doing with the deer.Alt was put in charge of the deer team because of his ability to speak not because of his knowledge of deer.He even admitted that.

I'm not a biologist or a forester either.However,there's a great deal of information out there on regeneration,especially oak.You can do a search yourself but I'll say this,it's alot more complex than just the deer.

I'm not against everything Alt has done.I agree with herd reductions in most areas and I like ar.I just can't stand the way he's misrepresented the facts in order to achieve ridiculously low deer densities.It's not about the deer,it's about forest certifcation.I have all the documentation and I'd be glad to fax it to you if you have a fax machine.