HuntingNet.com Forums - DEC has it figured out!!

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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ORIGINAL: alloutdoors

There's a big difference between purely estimating, and calculating based on proven scientific formulas.

You said yourself that the DEC counts deer from the same places over and over instead of going out randomly and getting more diverse data. What if the processors they go to have unusually high or low compliance rates?? How can you be sure that the places they go are in fact good samples to apply to the entire state?? Just because a certain percentage of guys do not call in tags in some small town in no man's land doesn't mean that's how the entire state acts. It is simply guess work and that's why it isn't working. They are guessing and guessing wrong. They may honestly believe that the herd is growing despite any and all common sense that shows otherwise.............or they may be just blowing smoke and telling people what they want to hear. either way it's wrong.

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Funny you should say that after more or less "bragging" earlier about how you "knew" the DEC was calculating the harvest wrong because of people like your friends who don't report their deer.

I was bragging??

That's nothing to brag about dude.

So what am I supposed to do about it?? I tell them 100 times and they don't change.......I called the DEC at least 5 times asking how they make sure people call in their kills and EVERYTIME they have said it's an "honor" system and they can't really do anything about it.

Another great invention from the braintrust..........a system that makes counting deer accurately even harder.........well at least it's easier/cheaper for them to issue an arms length of tags now :eek:

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you seem to think that anyone who has spent 20 or so years in the woods is automatically an expert, and I don't agree with that. Spending time in the woods does not cure stupidity.

You are absolutely horrible at trying to hide your arrogance and "I'm smarter then you" attitude.

I'm willing to bet you don't even see it in the sentence above.

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I've had people that have spent entire lifetimes hunting tell me such intellectual gems as "When a buck runs his antlers tilt back." (Right, like the things are on a freaking hinge) Or how about this one... "Deer don't lose their antlers each year." Or the classic...

"This deer is an old one, (and this was in reference to a spike BTW) he's only got four teeth on his lower jaw."

"Ummm, actually sir, he's only a yearling. If you open his mouth a bit more you will see that he's got molars farther back, and deer don't have any incisers on their upper jaw."

"Nonsense, don't try to tell me how old he is, I've been hunting since before you were born, he's at least 12 years old."

"Ok sir, enjoy your deer sir."

You are amazing............you have such a problem with blanket statements and then you conclude your rant with those gems??

Do you have any idea what the word hypocrisy means??

BTW what do you do at the DEC??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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ORIGINAL: devillfishvoice

there are ways that we as hunters can and should help the DEC, like reporting your harvest to get better statistics

I agree with that.

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you yourself even said you know plenty of people who don't report their kill's, well if 10,000 people dont report then how the heck is the DEC supposed to get a acurate count, the DEC can only do so much we're the ones in the woods 365 days a year.

Maybe they should come up with a system that makes it impossible or very very hard to not report kills??..........instead they come up with a half assed system that has no safeguards in it for this problem.........the reason why they don't come up with that system is THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT IT...........their motto should be NYDEC.....close enough!!

I have talked till I'm blue in the face to the hunters I know and the DEC officers about the reporting problem...........all I got in return was a bunch of shrugged shoulders.

It's hard to give respect to an organization that doesn't even seem to care that it has problems........look at alloutdoors, his first reaction is to get defensive and discredit the other party as some stupid hunter that has been in the woods for a couple decades and has the nerve to think he knows anything other then how to climb a tree.

How do you help someone who is unwilling to accept your help??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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ORIGINAL: osiris

Where is YOUR accountability?
When will you take actions into your own hands and
manage what you and the hunters who hunt the
properties surrounding yours?

What the hell is the DEC for if we have to do all those things ourselves?? Not to mention I don't know where you are from but guys around here don't take to kindly to other hunters walking up to their campfires and telling them what to do.

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as I see it,
the DEC provides guidelines and mandates; when you can
hunt, how many deer you can possibly take, and with
what weapon, the rest should be a self-governing
process.

What is left to self govern?? Season dates, tag numbers and weapon options are going to drastically overpower anything else as far as effect on the herd.

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Just because you have 5-7 tags in your
pocket does not mean that you have to fill each and
every one.

I've heard this statement many times and have to wonder.........why do you just take the resposibiity and not question the logic behind the tag free for all?? Bottom line is if a hunter can take 5-7 deer then the possibility is out there for the herd to get slaughtered.........depleted big time. Why take that chance unless you actually ae hoping for it?? People always say everyone isn't gonna kill 5 deer........well what if they did?? It would destroy the herd for years.........why risk it by giving out fist fulls of tags?? Why not just give everyone 2-3 if that is the only reaslistic figure the average hunter can obtain??? Because they want the extra money and the more deer killed the better in their book.

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Moreover, if you look at the most
successful and gratified hunters and property owners
in the state (or any state for that matter) those that
are working in QDM programs or cumulative co-ops are
having the best results with their deer management
programs and ascertaining their own goals on their
hunting land. These hunters also have the best
overall scope as to deer biology, their (deer's) effect
on habitat and knowing that we need to provide if we
require seeing more animals.

So what do we need the DEC for again?? If the most successful lands in the state are being run by intelligent hunters and the state lands are in a downward spiral what does that tell you?? You just re-enforced the theory that the DEC is doing a poor job by saying the best lands out there are guys taking matters into their own hands.

Why do you suppose all those guys out there felt like they had to take matters into their own hands??........I guess the DEC wasn't good enough for all them either...........WOW alloutdoors isn't gonna like you saying that experienced hunters can have as much knowledge as you imply simply by spending their whole lives in the woods........especially since the don't have it stamped on a degree.

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People are very quick to point fingers never realizing
that there are extenuating circumstances affecting our
deer herds. Maturing habitat, less biomass, shrinking
habitat, all play a major part in this.

Aren't those all things that a well functioning DEC should be able to see coming and take pre-emptive action to avoid the negative impact each can have??? Not wait until the dam bursts before you realize a problem exists.

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I offer this challenge to anyone who currently thinks they can do a better job of managing the deer herds then the DEC:

No one is saying it is an easy job...........neither is building bridges but we all expect it to be done properly. Just do your job right............or for god's sake at least show some sign of actually knowing what is going on out there. It's hard to have faith in a system that is preaching the polar opposite of what is actually happening.

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Unfortunately, this is what things have come to and
you have to create your own destiny. If you rely on
the DEC to do everything be ready for consistent disappointment.

Then why does it exist??.......you just said yourself they can not be counted on and if you want things to improve you have to do it yourself. Don't you see that if the DEC was doing even a marginally good job you wouldn't be in the dumps like that?? No one expects them to create a deer hunters Utopia but for crying out loud at the very least do SOMETHING to help us out a little bit.........most things they do make it seem like their goal is to work against what we are all striving for.

They take WAAAAAAAY too much of our money to be counter productive to our goals.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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NYB- Please don't take this the wrong way, but I find it interesting that you are convinced that so many people are misusing nuisance permits. What I find most interesting is that you asked "You don't think the vast majority are abusing that?". Then you also added that you could get them for your golf course but that you don't.

why is that so interesting to you?? I COULD get them and abuse them like every other "nuisance" tag holder but I don't cause I'm not a lowlife poaching scum cause that's all they are.

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So what I want to know is, why are you so sure that so many people are abusing nuisance permits? Is it because you feel that if you were in their situation you would not be able to stop yourself from abusing them?

What are you NOT understanding Freud?? I AM in their position and I don't do it!! Is that hard to understand for you?? Don't sit there and patronize me by talking to me like a child and cover it up with your fake sincerety. Your hidden sarcasm and arrogance is really cowardly and quite funny.

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I think it is a legitimate question, because you seem so convinced that the vast majority of permitees are abusing the system yet you seem to offer no proof that this is the case.

I personally know of 10 off the top of my head that get these tags and are abusing them. Not only using them for no purpose at all (crop damage...haha), but they take it a step further and shoot them at night and not on the property issued for. You continue to believe that these tags aren't abused that's wonderful of you.[:-] Scary but great whatever you want to believe. They are all wonderfully good honest Joes.[:-]

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On another note... I still think you are confusing DMAP permits and nuisance permits. DMAP are extra tags that can be obtained by landowners to use during regular hunting seasons.

on another note I know the difference thanks.:D

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BTW DMAP's aren't just given out like candy either... they require minimum amounts of property and also require that a managment plan is written up for the property clearly stating the need for the permits and the managment goals for the property. There is enough work involved to get DMAP tags that the averag Tom, Dick, and Harry (as you like to say) isn't going to bother with the hassle just to go out and have a shoot fest.

Are you being serious here??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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Where is YOUR accountability?
When will you take actions into your own hands and
manage what you and the hunters who hunt the
properties surrounding yours?

os - psssssssst how in the HE$$ do you think me and my surrounding neighbors that want to do that are GOING to do that when the other guys next store feel like they just won the slaughter house lottery and shoot 50 freakin deer a year now. OH and they also have "nuisance" tags aint that sweet??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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or they may be just blowing smoke

i think you are the only one blowing smoke :D

RE: DEC has it figured out!!

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ORIGINAL: alloutdoors

My only point was that there are a lot of people who have spent many years in the woods, but unlike you I don't automatically take that to mean they are an expert. Some of them are and some of them aren't.

Do you ever wonder why you have to re-explain your points multiple times?? If you have to keep saying "What I really meant was".........you probably should read your posts from an outsiders point of view before clicking OK ;)

Now........Please show me where exactly I said everyone that spends many years in the woods is an expert.

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Just like not everyone with a degeree is an expert, some are and some aren't.

Please show me where I said every person with a degree is an expert.

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The only person here who keeps trying to say I'm smarter than everyone else is YOU.

Please show me where I said this..........you are fond of saying "that's not what I meant it's just what you implied".........you seem to be doing a lot of implying yourself.

Haven't looked up hypocrisy yet huh?? ;)

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All three of those are real life quotes from 3 different hunters, who combined have been hunting for well over a century.

Oh I see...........when I use real life examples and experiences with wanna be's as DEC officers it is wrong and disrespectful..........but when you use real life examples and experiences with seasoned hunters showing lack of knowledge it is not only OK but a good way to prove your point??

Man, you really should look up that word..........it is becoming pathologic ;)

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Now from what I can gather, in your eyes that should make them all experts

Again, show me where I said that.

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Maybe you don't understand what "blanket statment" is. If I had said "No hunter can ever be an expert, even after a lifetime in the woods.", THAT would be a blanket satement. That's not what I said, and you know it.

Well, you accused me of using blanket statements so you are gonna have to show me where I said "Every hunter with years of experience is an expert" or "Everyone at the DEC is an idiot" or "No one with a degree is smarter then me"