deaddeer

I predicted the 2003 buck harvest within 2 K of the actual harvest while Alt said the buck harvest would return to normal after the 2002 season. Actually the PGC releases a lot more data on the net than most states, in fact I haven't found a single state that provides more data than PA.


While you may be lucky enough to hunt in an area where you have the luxury to pick and choose the deer you harvest ,we are not so lucky. Between 6 hunters we had 8 ethical shoots at legal deer during the 2003 season. We killed seven and had one miss ,which happened to be a shot at an adult doe during archery. No one had a shot at a buck and we only saw 1 AR legal buck in all 3 seasons. We don't target BB ,but we don't shed any tears when we harvest 1 or 6. BB will eat just as much of my garden as a female deer and Alt says we have to reduce the herd to 6 DPSM ,so we harvested 6 BB off of our .05 SM of land in order to help reduce the herd. We did our part to reduce the herd, did you?

BTBowhunter

As a matter of fact I did. I managed to shoot 9 antlerless FEMALE deer. I did not shoot a buck in Pa although I had 5 solid opportunities to shoot legal bucks in the 4 point area and one in a 3 point area. They weren't what I was looking for and my best guess is that all but one was a 1 1/2 year old deer. The other might have been older but still wasnt what I was after. I also gave up a few shots when I couldn't be certain the deer had no "nubs" and intentionally spared several bb's. While I can understand it happening occasionally, I can't understand you now telling us it's good for the herd to target bb's or to just be indifferent after all you've said about the bb kill on these boards.

Oh and you still havent told me what phenomenon causes the majority of professionals in the field to be supportive af Alt's game plan when, according to you, it's so flawed. Does he have little voodoo dolls? magic spells? hypnosis? what?

DougE

BT,I'll give you a rebuttal on why the vast majority of professionals support this plan.It can be summed up with two words.Forest recertification.I have the 46 page forest certification that was done in 1998 if you want to read it.It clearly states that one of the main conditions of recertification this year is to drastically reduce the herd.Byron shissler headed that project and now works with dcnr holding Gary's hand all the way.These professionals are all state employees and have the same goal in mind.Drastically reduce the herd.They are simply doing what they are told to do.Keeping our forests certified is worth alot more money to this state than keeping the hunters happy.

Think about this for a second and try and give me a rational explanation.I speak alot about 2g and 3c.This is because I grew up in 3c and still hunt there alot.I moved to 2g back in 1991 so I'm intimately familiar with these two places.3C is loaded with deer and the hunting has always been excellent in that area.It's so good that it's actually anti-climatic to hunt there in my opinion.Never one time have I made the trip to hunt back there that I haven't returnrd with a deer.Not one single time.That area has so many deer that Gary Alt had an article in a local paper two years ago on the last day of the season.He was appalled at the huge amount od deer in susquehanna county.2G on the other hand,used to have too many deer.The herd has been steadily decreasing since the mid ninties.That is a positive thing but my deer sighting and those of most of my buddies has been extemely low the last three years.Last year was the worst we ever experienced.I was lucky enough to kill a decent public land 8 point on the first wed of archery season.I hunted several days a week for the next six weeks and only saw one deer from my stand.This past spring I was out almost daily hunting and scouting for turkeys and saw zero deer the entire time on public property.Since then,I've been out spotting and glassing every saturday and sunday and have yet to see a legal buck.Some nights I don't see more than 3 deer.Presently,this is the only unit in the state that is below Alt's deer density goal.This is what hunting is like at 12 dpsm.There are not more and bigger bucks than ever before.This is what everyone has to look forward to when Alt's goals are met.Now for my question.Why is 2g getting an increase in doe tags while 3c is getting a reduction of 3000?I want to hear your explanation but here's mine.2g has a huge amount of state forest land while 3c has none.

Don't get me wrong.I personally support ar and reasonable herd reductions but 12 dpsm is ridiculous.These deer are healthy and the regeneration is good where responsible logging has taken place.I don't need to see 20 deer every time I hit the woods nor do I want to.One is really all it takes.However,never in my life have I gone almost 6 weeks without a single deer sighting.Remember,I'm hunting deer at the levels Alt wants the whole state to be at.There is no way any of his claims can come true under these conditions.That's all I'm trying to get accross.I hear guys say how great this plan is.They're still seeing plenty of deer and bigger bucks to boot.What they fail to understand and need to realize is, thats not the plan and it will change eventually.Just like Alt said,get used to seeing less deer.If your not seeing alot less deer at this point,Alt's plan is not succeeding in your area and things will eventually change.

deaddeer

Another reason they support Alt's plan is because they have no idea what Alt's plan will do. Nowhere in any of the articles do you see that the goal os to reduce the statewide herd to 13 DPSM. Nowhere do you see that that if the plan succeeds the buck harvest will drop to below 100K. Nowhere do you see that our OWDD assign no habitat value to farmland or any other non-forested habitat The other professionals all agree with balancing the herd with the habitat ,but that is not what the plan does. It attempts to balance the herd with only the forested habitat and ignores everything else so the plan is a classic example of gross mismanagement.

Would you prefer that we harvested 4, 2.5+ buck instead of 4 BB? According to the dominant breeding theory you don't want 1.5 buck doing the breeding because you want the dominant 2.5+ buck doing the breeding. So those 6 BB we harvested would have contributed to the OW population and added to the breeding competition,but wouldn't have contributed to the breeding. Therefore, how did the harvest of those BB harm the health of the herd?

The hunters that harvested the 62 K ,2.5+ buck did more to harm the health of the herd than the 68K hunters who shot BB, since they prevented those 2.5+ buck from becoming truly dominant 3.5+ buck. So while shooting BB definitely reduces the number of 1.5 buck, it does nothing to harm the health of the herd compared to increasing the harvest rate of 2.5+ buck, which is what AR has done.

etw

Whoa! Somebody please post a Glossary of terms. AR, OWD?? I'm FROM PA, Uncle Sam moved me to TX (among other places) years ago and I stayed. But I hunt with buddies in Pike and Bradford counties every other year. I hunted the bow in Bradford near Gillett, no 5 pt or better bucks and the early muzzleloader in Pike near Promished Land on state forest last October saw a few doe but none clear enough for a sure shot. None of the guys I hunt with are pleased with Alt's "plan". Ques. Is Alt a Marlins fan? Sure looked like him at Wrigley last October interfering at another sport.

deaddeer

HR= herd reduction

AR= antler restrictions

OWDD = over wintering deer density goal in DPSM

DPSM= deer per square mile

DPFSM= deer oer forested square mile

We are now at 25 DPSM and the goal is to reduce the herd to 13 DPSM. However , nobody knows how many SM of land the PGC counts as deer habitat. However, the previous goal was 557K and in Jan. 2003 we had over 1.13 M ,according to the PGC.

J Pike

BTbowhunter said" They do?? Like I said before show me one other state agency or biologist that only considers Forested Habitat as deer habitat!! Also please show me one other state agency or biologist that manages their over winter herd at 5-13 deer per square mile!! Show me just one and I will become an Alt supporter. The vast majority of hunters that support Alt are either like you (Hunters who dont have a clue about Alt's plan and also like you Hunters who are not effected by Alt because they are hunting land that has limited access, so herd reduction doesnt affect you) Pike

J Pike

BTbowhunter, also can you answer for me why the previous buck studies mentioned took place on mostly public land and this buck study took place mostly on private land with limited access?? Pike

chickory

Well said Mr. Pike

BTbow can't rationally respond because there are only a handfull of QDM proponents who support the idea of Alts plan, and most of them are not apprised of the ACTUAL content. Like PA only considering forest as habitat. Like farm fields and orchards, and small open areas are not habitat? Whaaaaaaa? And the dd goals for herd reduction.

At the recent QDM weenie show in Michigan the daunted John Ozoga was asked about the statewide AR pa is using..................and he said he is against it and the science does not support its use. !!! chuuuumba wuuuumba ! from Ozoga

btbow better go back and check his list of biologists supporting Alt. Seems as though when they find out details, THEY BACK OFF that support.

In my opinion the direction the supoprt is going, is down. Some hunters were holding out that it would make for better hunting, they were the first to drop thier support as it does not and that was apparent quickly. Then there were many die hard support the biologists at any turn crowd because we need less deer to make big booner bucks pop out of shrubbery. They have now dropped support because thats not happening in any way shape or form. And lastly are the hunters who just say "oh well, we have to have half the deer we used to in order to help the forestry dept keep the profit levels up for our timber sales" so we will just sit back and accept what we are told because we have such low expectations.

Support is waning and that is obvious.

DougE

I been looking for a link all day on that qdm conferance.You wouldn't happen to have one would you?I'd like to hear what Alt had to say as well as John Ozoga.