Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Watched Dr. Alt on PA outdoor life last night. He talked briefly about the deer program and then answered questions that had been sent in from listeners. Now most of you know I'm an Alt supporter so..... let me say I wasn't too impressed. He was not that informative, downplayed someones question on deer numbers where they hunted when he could have given a much more informative answer. Would have to grade him a D or D-. Guess thiers not much need to be as persuasive and information filled as he once was, but it seems like thier is still a bunch of folks out thier who don't get it still that are looking for answers that he could have reached, but wasted the oppertunity( as opposed to those out thier who have all the answers and who's number one mantra is that if it's from the PGC or from Alt it wrong, slanted, tainted, not worth doing, not true, or a down right lie). For those folks it's not worth trying to reach. Anyway, I degress, didn't think much of his time on tv last night. Anyone else see the show. Enjoy, Juniorpc.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

No I missed it. But sounds like I didnt miss much.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I watch Outdoor Life on occasion but have not been watching it lately. Is it not retelecasted early on Saturday mornings as well? Hopefully I can catch it then.

I would consider myself an "Alt supporter" to some extent as well but still think that he is not doing enough to micromanage the areas within the WMUs.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I feel the same way. I think he is doing good for pa.
I guess micromanagement would be a task to do, but I feel its gotta be done.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I don't expect Dr Alt to change his mind so I didn't bother, same with that recent call-in program. He has never properly answered the deer density numbers he states as fact. I, and many others, believe it to be over-inflated in most cases (except where illbback hunts:D).

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Pabowhunter, I think he's already done more than any of us could have asked of him. Changing atititudes, traditions, etc that have been so ingrained for so long has been a herculean task and accomplished because of his drive and personality as well as his professional stature gained from working with the bears. His ability to use the media is terrific and his contacts in print and video are amazing. I don't think thier is anyone else out there that could have turned PA's deer program around. it just would not have been possible. Our grandfathers, our fathers, and ourselves haven't seen PA's deer herds micromanaged and well now folks will fault Alt for not doing so? Tell me when anyone of us herd anyone complaining before Dr. Alt about micromanaging the deer herd? Nope just didn't happen. Folks didn't care how it was managed. Just didn't care. Still many don't other than they don't want things changed. To heck with the reality of what that means.
Folks that think Gary is in bed with the PGC to further the PGC goals are way, way off. He's at odds with the PGC, especially those that have been through the old Green Ringer School. He still does not have the support of the Commissioners. Why would a commissioner want to listen to an outside biologist instead of one from within thier own agency? In the brief conversations I've had with the commissioners over several years I still find some of them to be less informed than many of us and basing thier views and decisions on tradition and emotion with little or no or twisted and contorted facts to base thier views on. Not one of us would have wanted to undertake what Alt has taken on. Not one of us.
As for the direction he's taking, he's admitted he doesn't have all the answers and that mistakes will be made. He's said that from day one. Any biologist from any state in the union will tell you that is' easier and much quicker to get the deer population increased than it is to get back habitat and habitat is the main issue in the entire process. And bringing deer numbers down is one of the needs. I don't see how he can micromange when he's still going year to year to year with getting approval for the deer program and maintaining the ground he's gained. Folks want him to move faster... heck they almost had his head for the changes he's made to date. Nobody would have accepted and quicker changes. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
I know one thing from knowing Mr. Alt. He will succeed and he will further his name and reputation. That's what drive's him. Succeeding isn't destroying the deer herd. Succeeding isn't getting deer numbers low enough to make the foresters and audobon people happy. Succeeding is making things better for us hunters. So if anyone thinks he doesn't have our best interests at heart thier mistaken. If only because his best intersts and our best interests happen to match.
I've seen folks with different formula's for coming up with herd estimates. Better? No? just different and just not the PGC's biologists ways. I've seen folks take study data from other states and twist the results to suit thier purposes. I've seen folks look for all kinds of reasons our habitat is suffering. If Oaks can grow inside an exclosure but not outside then acid rain is not the issue the seedlings are disappearing. If acid rain is going to kill them in four or five years then certainly that needs to be addressed, but most of us wouldn't know how big a three, four or five year old oak tree is because we haven't seen many in our hunting lifetimes save for our yards if we've planted one cause almost every last one in the wild is eaten as a seedling. Folks hate Alt for being famous and disagree with him sometimes only for that reason. Everybody loves an underdog, which he certainly is not (but certainly was when it came to deer management and changing tradition), but an unknown, a percieved underdog could never have made changes in Pennsyvania. Why wasn't thier this much uproar when we were reducing doe licenses, couldn't sell out counties, couldn't get folks to shoot a doe?? All the while the habitat tanked? Cause people just don't know any better. Folks can disagree with Alts different programs and stratagies, but they can't possibly say we don't have a habitat problem and more often than not they they can't see that either. I see a whole bunch of parallells in how the anti Alt folks go about presenting thier case and how PETA, the humane society present thier anti hunting, anti circus, anti animal abuse arguements. Thier compelling, but based on emotion rather than substanance.

Juniorpc

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I think that Gary Alt was man before the time. 10 years ago hunters were not as informed about conservation and management. Today every hunter is part of some group NWTF, QDMA, etc. These groups have informed many of the "real hunters" that care about the species they pursue. Some people will never wake up and will therefore be left in the dark.

The reason I think Gary Alt is becoming dry is because many of us are reading Deer and Deer Hunter, Turkey and Turkey Hunting, Quality Deer Management and publications of such which allows us to learn these scientific ideas ourselves. We don't need Gary Alt telling us that we must pass small bucks to have larger rack bucks or that I doe to buck ratio is a little out of whack.

There are many hunting clubs that had restrictions before the PA Game Commission made them law. These clubs are tried to keep there doe numbers down. Many of us are practicing some type of management whether we know it or not. "Let him go so he can grow" "A doe tastes just as good as a buck -- some say better" "You don't eat the horns"

The best thing we can do as hunters is keep learning and trying to help manage and have a positive impact on our wildlife.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I saw it as well and I was not that impressed with Dr Alts Answers as well (very vague) (can you believe that one Mike!! of course I only saw bits and pieces of it cause I was trying to chase all the deer away from eatin my lawn all up;))

Every one has a bad day....All other times I have seen him speak he has given very clear answers.

I am not crazy about PA outdoor life. They treat their audience like we are all a bunch of idiots who have never set foot in the outdoors.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Why do you think was vague?He was vague becaus he can't back up anything he's done with facts.None of his predictions are coming true.The buck harvest was supposed to return to normal this year and it ended up being a big flop.The buck harvest and antlerless harvest were both down.Does he say maybe there were less deer available?Nope,he blames it on bad weather and a poor mast crop.I was out in it every day and I'll I can say is I've seen alot worse.Besides,the two week concurrent season was put in place to prevent the weather from having an effect on the harvest.Then we have the mast crop.It was poor around here also but it wasn't the first time for that either.A poor mast crop should actually help the hunting since the deer are more easily patterened.As usual he tried to cover up any hard questions with his usual B.S.Whenever someone comments on seeing less deer he just says"well they're out there.It takes a guy with a phd to come up with that one.*

I agree with your comment on Pa outdoor life.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

It's all about dcnr and the audubon.Who do you think is financing all of these studies?They ain't doing for their own benefit.The goal for every magagement unit in the state except one has a goal of 15 dpsm or less.It's all about getting our forests certified.Nothing more,nothing less.I have the certification report if you want to read it.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

This is JEPORDY:

I'll take "Dances with Deer" for a 1000 Alex.

Why hunters in PA don't see the deer like they used?

What is poor habitat caused by too many deer?

Correct

I'll take "Out of Commission" for 800, Alex

The reason PA's deer managment is no longer the shambles it would have been if left to past and some present commissioners, Alex

What is Gary Alt, Alex

Correct.

I'll take "Diabetic Deer" for 1500, Alex

The name for a sudden increase in blood sugar or Pennsylvanias favorite type of buck to shoot.

What is a spike, Alex

Correct.

I'll take have you Herd for 1000, Alex.

What some people strive for at work or what PA deer hunters need to do more of.

What is increase the amount of Doe they get? ,Alex.

Correct

Enjoy,
Juniorpc.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Do you know that according to the 2001 antler buck survey 51% of the buck harvested in Pike Co. were 2.5 + buck? Do you know that only 40% of the 2.5+ buck in Pike co. have 8+ pts? Do you realize that more than 18% of 2.5+ buck won't be AR legal and they will become the dominant 3.5 buck, that will be doing most of the breeding?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Junior,explain how the past commissioners left the deer management in shambles.Alt is claiming the herd hasn't been reduced since he took over.*

Explain why you think the deer herd crashed because of poor habitat.Be specific and show some data to support your claim.Make sure you cite how the deer disapeared yet our does still recruit 1.1 fawns per year.Remember Gary Alt is saying the herd continues to increase despite the recent record kills.Only a very healthy herd could increase despite the huge harvest of the last three years.While you're at it,please explain why most of the encloses in Clearfield county fail despite the lack of deer inside the enclosures.Also please explain why Cameron county has been below the deer density goals for over ten years now and Alt still claims there is no regeneration there.Enlighten me on how this could be possible.Don't stop there.When the deer density goals for each management unit are met(less than 15 dpsm),explain how are hunting will be better than ever.Also,currently the state timbers less than 1% off it's timber per year.Explain how this 1% will allow us to have more deer in the future.Are you really excited to lower the deer herd below 15 dpsm all across the state?If you are,please explain how that will make our hunting better.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You have now and had more of then, Commissioners who professed saving the does. While you can argue the merits of AR as to whether larger bucks will be produced and all that AR supporters claim will be accomplished, you really can't argue the need to shoot does. I'm not talking even talking about the big alotments in recent years, even before that from the hunters in the field on up folks didn't want to shoot does. That's as much a part of our history and tradition as is the shooting of spikes and Y bucks. Many of the Commissioners and at least one present one still can't see the need to kill does. We won't even get into the average weights of deer here compared to what they should be. Besides, I need those weights to come up. A bigger target will make me a better shot!! Juniorpc.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Who bought the 1M doe tags and harvested 352K anterless deer in 2002? The tooth fairy? Who kept the hard stable fron 1989 to1998,by harvesting enough anterless deer to match recruitment?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I disagree with you about guys not wanting to shoot does.When I was in school during the early eighties,the first day of doe was a holiday because no one would be in school.The woods were loaded with guys those three days and it sounded like a war.We've been killing far more does than bucks for over ten years now.Since 1992 every doe tag has come with it's own ear tag.This substantially increased the doe kill.I agree that we had far too many deer at one time.The past commissioners did their job and took care of that problem in many areas.We still have far too many in certain areas right now,However,The great Alt is doing very little to see that those areas get the relief they need.The biggest allocation increases have come to the north central region of the state where we've had less deer for quite some time.The reason for the larger increases is because of the huge amount of state timber in this are.In order to get these forests recertified it was written right into the conditions of recetification that the deer herd needed to be severly reduced.This is all about timber not deer.We never had a breeding ecology problem.We never had a poor b/d ratio and we never had unhealthy deer.I've killed tons of deer in this state and I never remember shooting one that didn't have huge layers of fat on it.We haven't seen massive starvation even during some of the worst winters.The deer are healthy.I agree that it wouldn't hurt to let the bucks live longer but that's hard to do when you have a million rifle toting hunters.I live in some of the worst habitat in the state yet I rarely see a mature doe that doesn't have twins with her in the spring.You mention these enclosures with nothing growing outside.Well,come up and see the enclosures around here.They look the same on the inside as they do outside. I'm all for sensible herd reductions that balance the herd with the habitat.Unfortunately it's been proven that saw timber can support far more deer than Alt's goal of below 15 dpsm.Just explain to me how all of Alt's claims will come true when the herd is reduced to less than 15 dpsm statewide.Honestly,answer that.*

The man is fraud and a bold faced liar.He used half truths and misconceptions to sell this program.Now he skirts every question with a smart remark.The hunters have been taken as fools.Some just won't admit it.Remember,if you support Alt,you must be willing to decrease the herd below 15 dpsm.That's the goal of the plan and if you can't accept it,you can't support Alt.*

It's funny,some guys like you say how great of a biologist he is.I agree that he did alot of good research on bears.He also let the population increase by limited hunting pressure on them.That's exactly the opposite of what he's doing with the deer.It's funny,the guy is now running our deer program and didn't know that bears were major predators of fawns until just recently.How did he miss that after studing bears for 25 years?He spent 25 years in the woods studying bears and didn'y realize deer impact the forests until Cindy Dunn of the audubon led him around by the hand and pointed it out.Yep,he's really on the cutting edge of deer management.He was put in this position as a salseman to sell herd reductions to get our forest recertified.He wasn't put there because he was the most qualified biologist.Tell me one more time how our hunting will improve and we'll have more and bigger bucks once the herd is reduced to below 15 dpsm.The pgc just released the present deer densities and density goals for the ntire state.The area where I hunt is now at 12 dpsm.I can tell you from experience,the hunting is not better and there are less bucks than ever before.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Doug your just plain wrong. He's no one's salesman (but his own). He out for only one person- himself. That's why things in the long run we will be fine. Because providing us (hunters) long term healthy forests and healthy deer with bucks in older age classes and bucks and does weighing more at sustainable numbers. Our best interests just happen to match his best interests. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go work for the CIA, other theories just aren't true.
yes the audobon society, foresters, etc all have a stake in a healthy forest and it's to the point where the PGC will be sued if they fail to manage the deer herd at the expense of habitat. Same reason D-map tags have been expanded.
A large part of Gary's bear research dealt with mommas, birth, and newborn cubs. Deer Management- is he learning on the fly? Sure he is and he's admitted as much. Folks just don't want to hear that part of the message. Just like they don't want to here him say mistakes will be made.. and corrected. That's good sound management. Listening to a bunch of folks with little facts and lots of anecdotal "evidence" is certainly not the way to go.
Above somewhere someone mentioned how many 2 1/2 year old bucks in pike county didn't even have eight points why.... because the habitat is so poor. Habitat is much harder, and takes much longer to correct than bringing back deer numbers from some disasterous brink. Until habitat improves deer numbers will need to be reduced. Juniorpc.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

First of all,he should be out for the sportsman not himself.Unforunately he's not.Alt is a Pa state employee.Pa is in danger of losing it's forest certification.Alt was put in charge to see that the herd is brought levels far below the carrying capacity of the land in order for us to retain our certification.The timber is worth alot more to the state than the deer are.I have documentation to back that up.

What mistake has he admitted to and fixed?He's still saying the herd hasn't been reduced after he claimed an 8% reduction in 2001 followed by the biggest kill on record.Explain to me how that can be possible.Explain how the buck harvest will return to normal when the herd gets reduced to below 15 dpsm.Explain how we will have more and bigger bucks when the deer density goals are met.The fact is,when we hit those levels,we will have less 3.5 year old bucks.It's mathematically impossible to have otherwise.How can he claim the habitat is in bad shape if the deer herd keeps growing despite record kills?Tell me what you think the statewide b/d ratio is.Alt won't answer any of these questions,maybe you can.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Thank you very much. He (Alt) has also stated his desire to be head of PGC or he'll go elsewhere. Let him go.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I wonder if it has sunk in yet to some of the more gullible hunters, that they have been played bigtime......?

No answers to the important questions, hunters are kept in the dark to blindly stumble into the new season with no idea where thier area's densities are because nobody in the PGC has spoken. The deer team appears to be awol in 2004, and the order of the day appears to be to just let hunters overharvest for another year or until they catch on.

So much for anything that came close to QDM in pa, under qdm there is supposed to knowledge of the herd. Pa does not have that, they have mushrooms.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Alt was in charge of bears for many years and the bears in my area never got bigger racks. What's the deal with that?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

hehe... thats because not enough hunters in your area embraced Quality Bear Management and you all failed to plant bear plots in accordance with the strategic bear plan. Didn't you notice the depleted habitat (Don't feel bad, neither did Dr. Alt for 30 years until someone took him by the hand and told him what to think.)

Once again hunters were the point of failure! :eek:

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Ah - QBM. I guess we were all too greedy and shot the first bear we saw. As for the food plots, I planted some jelly donuts in a nearby field but I couldn't get them to grow. Maybe too much sunlight.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

DougE:
I live to read your posts on deer #'s & Qdm from Alt's perspective. because i agree with you 1000% due to the area that i hunt in. Clinton/Centre co's in the Loganton (Sugar Valley) area just off rt 80 at the jersey Shore exit. The deer ARE NOT THERE like they were 5 years ago! I built a 6x6 enclosed treestand 14 years ago this year & i sit there from daylight to dark every day of the rifle season. when i first built the stand i would record seeing 50-75 deer a day,,,last year i saw 4 deer!!!! Now,,,my problem is this,,,were in an area that is overwhelmed with Amish,,im sure alot of you have seen me bitch about this in the past,, but im struggling with this issue,,,in a serious way! These people are demolishing the deer herd in our area & theres no way of stopping it due to their survival comes from their farms. Where in any of Alt's stats does it show crop damage deer taken by the Amish? I can find none & if i could would they be accurate???HELL NO! To me this is nothing more that legal poaching for a given culture! I know for a fact that my areas deer densitys are way down & i dont need sum self proclaimed professional telling me any different! My question to you & everyone else is this,,,short of blowing it off & hunting another area,,what can i do about this???

Thanx for any help

Mike

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

When are the Alt supporters going to wake up and realize they got Punk*D? After 2 years of AR. and an increasing herd ( according to Alt and the PGC that is) Our Buck Harvest would increase this year not continue to decrease!! Ofcourse Alt is going to be vague with his answers he is hoping he can keep his junior Alties hood winked for atleast another year. Honestly this is getting embarrasing!! Pike

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Rem700man:

If you've got reasonable proof, go here:

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=483&q=152267

If you don't, forget it.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

:):D;)

Hehe...haw haw that is the best analysis I have heard yet on our current deer fiasco.

YOU got punk*d !!! What a perfect phrase to describe the way sportsman in pa got played. And the really funny part is that to this day......some of them don't even realize it. [8D]

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

MikeE: surely your suggestion that Rem700 turn the Amish in as poachers is a joke isnt it? If it's not, you need to know that they can shoot all the deer they want to for crop damage, legally.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

anyone who farms in pa can shoot as many deer as they want for crop damage, its not unique to the amish.

If you have poor law enforcement in your area, then thats a problem you can work with the commission on.

In bucks co. (I believe from memory) one farmer dropped 27 deer in one night.

...and he wasn't amish, and its legal for crop damage. Nothin' wrong with that.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Jeff, where can I get one of those crystal balls? Last I checked, we haven't hunted deer in this state yet this year(exception being late muzz/archery....and those totals go onto last years numbers).

I will not contest or support the PGC numbers about the deer herd. I don't believe them, but that's all we have to go by so there's no point in arguing it.[:'(]

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You don't need a crystal ball to see the writing on the wall.

Saying you have no interest in the numbers is either apathy or a cop out. Either way, it means sportsman not holding the commission accountable..... (is it any wonder we don't have all sportsman going in one direction in Pa?) and secondly it means hunters do not have the tools to make educated decisions on deer management if the numbers from our state employees are not believeable.

I actually do believe the numbers are the best estimate of the pgc staff. I usually only disagree with posters who want to believe them when they show something in one direction - then disbelieve them when the numbers go in the opposite!

It surely is a boondoggle to say that you belive the PGC when they say we must cut the herd in half and then say 'oh but I do not believe the yearly harvest stats that show a declining buck harvest for the last 3 years or the total herd numbers' Its hypocrisy if you do....

Pa asked for better buck hunting and got doe tags as a consolation prize. Hunting in the smaller herd will lead to a coninuance of lower buck harvests than before we had ar/hr (with the emphasis on hr)

...no crystal ball needed.

less deer equals l-e-s-s d-e-e-r. Get it?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

less deer equals b-e-t-t-e-r q-u-a-l-i-t-y h-a-b-i-t-a-t. Get it?

Less deer equals b-e-t-t-e-r b-a-l-a-n-c-e with other species. Get it?

Less does equals b-e-t-t-e-r b-u-c-k/d-o-e ratio. Get it?

Less doe equals more n-a-t-u-r-a-l b-r-e-e-d-i-n-g c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n. Get it?

Fer cryin out loud, we are only going into our third year of AR!

Yes the buck kill dropped the first year because we couldnt shoot a lot of em. The second year weather was very much a factor in the lower kill. Maybe not the ONLY factor, but a significant one to be sure.

From the start, Alt said this was going to be trial and error till they got it right.


I swear some of you guys are just like those in this country that said they understood that the war on terror was going to take awhile but began to whine when it wasnt over in 6 weeks!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

We harvested 86% of the buck that were carried over from 2002 and we had the second largest anterless harvest ever recorded. Therefore , weather conditions were not the cause of the lower buck harvest in 2003 , but the harvest of 77K BB in 2002 and the harvest of 52.6 K 2.5 + buck in 2002 was the reason for the lower than expected buck harvest in 2003.

When AR was implemented in Ark. the buck harvest decreased by 40% and Dr. Demarias said implementing Ar in Miss. decreased te buck harvest by 50% and neither state was ithe process of reducing their OW herd by 50% , as alt wants to do in PA.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Chickory:
Killing 27 deer in one night is not crop damage control by any sort of the friggin imagination. Thats nothing more than one GREEDY S.O.B taking advantage of his circumstances!!!! I grew up on a farm in the same area that i wrote about earlier in this thread & i can tell you one thing for damn certain,,,my love for hunting & having deer to enjoy year around (not just during the hunting season) never would have let me do such a SORRY ASS thing as kill 27 deer in one night & write it off as doing the right thing for my livelyhood!!! what became of these 27 deer killed by this so called farmer???? I would think that such a man prolly shot em in the guts to run off & die for the so called "sport" of it. no way could i justify such an act as this,,nor would any sportsm,an or farmer that i know! If im not mistaken,,,isnt there something in the laws that says you can only kill as many deer for crop damage that youcan personally you for your own consumption?? This is the kind of antix that im talking about,,,how can I be held responsible for going out to my treestand & thinking to myself "Mike,,,theres a buck!!! Ok let me make sure that theres 3 pt's on 1 side,,yeap,,he's legal,,now wait until he stops so you get a good broadside shot,,, If killing 27 deer for "crop damage" in one night is justifiable by one farmer,,,than i may as well quit buying non-resident liscense every year & just shoot every deer that i see for two weeks that im home!

Now,,,where did all this 27 deer shot in one night figure into Alt's numbers???
Did this farmer call the game commission & tell themn that he just demolished the deer herd in his area & did they come to his "farm" & congratulate him on half of alts behalf?

Dude:
your last statement of "NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT" makes me wanna sit down to the loading bench & load one special round for my own head!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Oh & by the way:
I have no problem with a farmer killing deer for crop damage! But 27 in one night????

Hey,,maybe im the one thats wrong here & im just not getting the whole picture

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The way you talk the harvest will just keep falling. Eventually it has to level off or rise. That may be this year. It may be next. It may not happen for five more years, but neither you nor I know it....hence the crystal ball.

I never said I have no interest in the PGC numbers. I said they aren't worth arguing over because they are all we have to go from. I said that I don't believe them. I don't believe the herd is increasing by the amounts the PGC suggests when just a couple of years ago they were telling us the herd was dropping. Almost everyone is seeing less deer in this state. Especially on public land. I think that's a good thing, but either the old model was WAY OFF or the new one is. How did we have a herd of 1.3m and declining just a couple of years ago and suddenly with a new model we have 1.6m and rising?

The harvest stats I put more faith in than the overall herd estimate. I don't contest that the buck harvest is declining, but it won't decline forever. If the rest of the state is anything like my area there are more legal bucks around than I ever used to see any bucks, period. If that holds true then the harvest this year will increase. If it doesn't then it can decrease or remain similar. Again, we've had the last, what, four years of all-time-high harvest and yet the herd is growing tremendously and there aren't any bucks around. Make up your mind.....

PA asked for QDM and we're getting it. A deer behind every tree and killing spikes and Y's is not better buck hunting, it's more killing of young deer. Once again, the buck harvests will drop, but not forever....therefore, not a continuance.

I don't have a problem with less deer, you seem to though. HR is needed in this state. We have had too many deer for way too long in most parts of the state. I don't see the need for deer behind every tree or the need to kill the first tiny buck that wanders aimlessly by. If you can explain to me why the previous management plan was better than the current I will take the time to read and discuss and debate it with you, but until you have something to talk about I'm liking the new plan a whole lot more.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

sorry bt bowhunter but it was Dr. Alt who said each tweak he performed would do great things....not me. He said earlier seasons would do wonders. They did not.

He said, not me, that hunting would get better right away (even before AR) he took steps to put more emphsasis on doe harvests early. Soooooo..... talk to your buddy. :D

We have been under 'modern scientific' deer management going on six seasons now and it has not made hunting any better. In fact in many areas it has mad it worse. You can sit and wait another 10 years, but I don't have to in order to see what a smaller deer herd has brought.

by the way habitat does not limit deer in many parts of our state, our B:D ratio was just fine before AR/HR, and having deer inharmony with all other mammals is fluff.

Sorry but you are just making excuses as proponents usually do to excuse your having fallen for the rhetoric.

how does it feel to get punk*d? Dr. Alt sure did fool some of you......


oh, but you were right about one thing..."Alt said this was going to be trial and error "
Yes, it has been trial and ERROR.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

rem700 ? Whats up with your surprise over 27 deer killed for crop damage?

In PA. sportsman have agreed with the game commission and the legislature that private landowners MUST have the tools to control the deer on thier own property. That is carved in stone in Harrisburg. No debate.......

It happens often in pa. Dirk Remensnyder, a PGC employee was charged for shooting 125 deer at night with a light in Sunbury Pa, for a landowner who didn't feel like shooting them himself. (at one time thought to be illegal) but Dirk is working for the Game commission once again due to the help of Commissioner Thomas Boop who got him acquited of the charges and re-instated. Landowners come first, even if laws are sidestepped, in most cases.

If you think that the farmer shot them out of greed, I would say no. He did not keep a ssingle one (he could keep one legally), he shot them, gutted them, and placed them on his farm lane for the PGC to pick up after he called them. All perfectly in accordance with law and regs. Of course it was August and hot and two days later when the PGC arrived with trucks to load them they were spoiled and they went into a landfill. All per the state rules. No problem.


It ain't me who says so, its our state leaders. We are under seige from a brown menace called deer pollution, and all tools are being brought to bear. IF YOU GOT a problem with that, then you need to be talking to your state representative (who made)and your 8 commissioners (who enforce) the regulation!

Tonight, your local farmer can do the same thing (amish or not) and it all perfectly within his rights. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You musta talked to a different Gary Alt than I did. Or are you getting your "Alt proclamations" second hand?


From the hunters I've talked to, it did get better right away. The only complainers seem to be the guys that just don't want to change hunting sytle or locations. In other words they refuse to adapt.

In a way you are somewhat correct. Habitat hasn't yet limited deer much of anywhere yet but a lot of habitat has been permanently changed, damaged or outright destroyed by too many deer. As for the B/D ratio having been just fine I can only say

No, the likes of Silinsky, Unified and old DD have Punk*d you!

And as for you DD, old buddy....


Exactly what part of didn't you understand???
I guess that since you can't put adverse weather into your little calculator that means it doesn't count. Eh?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Yes , I understand that adverse weather is not a factor when the harvest of only one class of deer decreased significantly. The harvest of 1.5 buck decreased from 113K in 2002 to 80K in 2003. That is a decrease of 29% ,while the total buck harvest only decreased by 11 %, and the harvest rate for 2.5+ buck increased. That means that adverse weather was not the limiting factor controling the harvest , but the decreased number of 1.5 buck was the controlling factor.