RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I don't understand how someone can say that less deer harvested = less deer in the woods? If this was the only thing to be taken into consideration when determining herd size then I guess our herd would change every day depending on how many deer were shot that day. Did you ever take into consideration that the majority of Pa hunters are weekend warriors who use to go out the first weekend and hunt for 3 hours and blast the first 50 lb dink that walked by. Now with AR these same hunters are passing on the dinks and giving up after a few hours of not seeing anything. So for every hunter that passes on a spike it is one less deer killed (hence 1 more deer in the herd) and 1 less deer to tally to the deer kill total. As a result the deer kill goes down and the buck population increases. If you would look at studies that were done you would see that the number of mature buck has drastically increased since AR has been put in place. Over the past three years 2,023 deer were trapped, tagged and radioed of which 551 were bucks. that's less than a 4:1 ratio of buck to doe. Thats pretty darn good considering 5 years ago you would have seen 20 doe before you saw anything with horns. But then again I keep forgetting most people don't actually want to hunt, they want to spend 2 hours in the woods the first day and blast their dink. And heaven forbid we should deprive them of that majestic overgrown rabbit and make them take a 130 pound doe as a consolation prize. I know I for one would be so much prouder of a deer that can fit in my game bag. Bottom line is if you get your panties in a bunch over shooting an adult doe over a 40lb spike then maybe you should take up rabbit hunting, heck you can shoot 4 of them a day and you can't get much smaller than that.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Bearklr, your membership in the AR team has been accepted. Congrats!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Bears an uncanny similarity to the trout opener, does it not?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

yes it must be just you. Because everyone else realizes that before AR/HR there was nothing requiring you to shoot your version of an inferior buck. ;) You could wait until your little heart was content to shoot your trophy. No body was stopping you.

Prior to AR/HR and you actually had a greater chance of seeing a buck you would feel "up to your wannabe standards" because there were more bucks availble for you hard hunters. (note the harvest #'s before and after AR was implemented)

Now though, choice has been taken away and we cannot decide for ourselves, we must turnover our freedom of choice to career bureaucrats in harrisburg. And as we know that is always a good thing?[:-]

So now after we work on herd reductions you will actually have less bucks to shoot, less deer to see ( and we all know we like seeing deer in the woods)

So what you are saying livbucks is a nice soundbite, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you truly didn't like spikes or forkies, then you could have waited like a good wannabe for your trophy before AR. Or didn't you have the gumption to do so?

Now you are stuck with less deer and less bucks overall and no matter how your slice dice or chop that, it still means less deer = less deer. And if you take it a step further, if pa doesn't get its herd reduced soon you won't have "more and better habitat" in order to grow your bigger bucks that you dream of for the future!

sort of makes it a lose - lose right now in pa, Don't it...

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

<==bearklr

I got a chuckle from this. yes, actually our herd size DOES change everyday depending on how many deer you kill hehehe.... (as a review 10 minus 2 equals 8... ok?)


and yes it is our PGC biologists who DO USE harvest to calculate herd size. So I would say that is pretty reliable source for asking about deer issues. Dr. Rosenberry surely must know what HE is saying.......?

"By Dr. Christopher S. Rosenberry - PGC Wildlife Biometrician
How many deer live in Pennsylvania? How many deer do hunters harvest each year? These two questions generate a lot of discussion among hunters and nonhunters alike. Biologists, farmers, motorists and countless others wonder about these questions. Unfortunately, estimating deer populations and harvests is not simple, nor without controversy. Each year the Game Commission calculates deer harvests, and then from these, population estimates.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=465&q=151378


So yes, right on our PGC website they clearly spell out for you that harvest IS an indicator of herd size overall....


any other questions?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

If these anti Alt boys spent as much time scouting and hunting as they do b*tching about Alt they might actually see some some more deer...;) I talked to a couple PA hunters last night, they commented they dont shoot a buck every year like they used to, but when they do now they are bigger, more quality bucks. You guys who dont like Alt sent him down my way, they put his system into place in MD and we will be the IL and IA of the east coast. Bearklr your argument makes sense, I've seen the bucks you have, looking at that I dont know how you can argue against AR.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I do wait, as a matter of fact I am still waiting. I passed on (before AR) legal 1.5 bucks almost every day I hunted. Last year I passed on a couple LEGAL bucks in archery. They were not mature enough for me. I have not taken a buck of any kind in about 9 years! I have had the chance every year to fill my tag, but chose not to because of immature bucks. How many of those 1.5 bucks survived the seasons before AR? Seems like a waste of a hunting resource to whack them as dinks, does it not. Allowing a good percentage to survive so that they make hunting an actual challenge seems like a good thing for hunting, does it not? I hunt an average of 150 hours (in the actual woods) a year not including pre-season scouting. With all the effort I put into it, I still will not shoot a dink this year (even a legal one). This year will mark a decade of effort for a truly mature animal, I do not think you are in a position to challenge my dedication, sir. I must add that last year I had my chance and blew it on a 11 point true monster bow buck (160 class), my problem though. I don't blame the GC, just myself. Then again, it was the experience alone that made the hunt a success, one I will never forget. So I guess I actually thank the GC.

Just a side note: I enjoy trout fishing every year. I like to come back to the streams during the week, after all the trout are " gone", and spend evenings working the stream, You would be surprised at how many I catch after the stream has been "fished out" by the Saturday morning grab and go crowd. But then again, even if I did not catch any, I would still enjoy the experience, the chase, the search, THE "HUNT".

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

....and if Jr Alties spent more time reading about herd dynamics they would realize they can't have thier cake and eat it too! :D

No need for bad language, you can still make your point and stay on the high road. I do. [:-]

Now back to the harvest and herd size. In pa the harvest and total herd size are linked because we have a steady view of our hunter success rates over 10- 20 years. Sure other factors go into the model but in general the bigger your herd the bigger your harvest. And conversely the smaller your herd the smaller your harvest.

its what allows Brett Wallingford to make predictions like this one;

""There were about 1.5 million deer prior to the start of archery season," said Bret Wallingford, PGC biologist. "While it is too early to estimate the early muzzleloader season harvest, based on previous archery season harvest reports, we expect that bowhunters will have removed about 75,000 deer from the population before the start of the rifle season. "

Unless he would change the success rate (for example rifle to shotgun only) then it would change the estimates. hunters are still just as successfull in pa they just take more does and less bucks.

As HappyHunter so skillfully has pointed out the real test is whther we reduce the OW herd size. If that happens we are reducing the overall herd.

Now here is a simplified chart for Jr Alties to review. it will help remind them they can't have thier cake and eat it too.

Table 1. Deer Harvest Guide
If the number of bucks harvested on your land is: 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
and you want your deer herd to: then harvest this many antlerless deer:
increase rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NONE
increase slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....................1 3 5 6 8 10 11 13 14 16
maintain present level . . . . . . . . . . ....................2 5 7 10 12 15 17 19 22 24
decrease slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ......................6 8 11 14 17 20 22 25 28
decrease rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .......................7 10 13 16 19 23 26 29 32


to get bigger bucks, you have to reduce herd size to get better habitat an reduce stress. If our herd is as "big as ever", then nobody could see just as many bucks AND have them be bigger. You could have less bucks, and they could be bigger, but it would work better if everyone were following AR and not just a portion of the population. As it is we have watered down version of AR/HR that hasn't produced much yet.

....other than wishfull thinking that is.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Livbucks,
I admire your patience and dedication. I have more respect for a hunter who doesnt kill a deer for 9 years waiting for a moster than I do for a hunter that kills a dink 9 years in a row. Little bucks are not hard to find or kill, I have been bow hunting for a week since our opener and have passed shots at 5 little bucks. Sometimes its hard eating that tag soup, but when all that waiting pays off and you get the big buck your after it will be that much more rewarding.

As for PA trout...I dont even hit the opener anymore, I wait a couple weeks and fish during the week like you do. Its amazing how may trout you can catch in a stream that has been "fished out" by the weekend warriors.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

....and if Jr Alties spent more time reading about herd dynamics they would realize they can't have thier cake and eat it too! :D

No need for bad language, you can still make your point and stay on the high road. I do. [:-]

Now back to the harvest and herd size. In pa the harvest and total herd size are linked because we have a steady view of our hunter success rates over 10- 20 years. Sure other factors go into the model but in general the bigger your herd the bigger your harvest. And conversely the smaller your herd the smaller your harvest.

its what allows Brett Wallingford to make predictions like this one;

""There were about 1.5 million deer prior to the start of archery season," said Bret Wallingford, PGC biologist. "While it is too early to estimate the early muzzleloader season harvest, based on previous archery season harvest reports, we expect that bowhunters will have removed about 75,000 deer from the population before the start of the rifle season. "

Unless he would change the success rate (for example rifle to shotgun only) then it would change the estimates. hunters are still just as successfull in pa they just take more does and less bucks.

As HappyHunter so skillfully has pointed out the real test is whther we reduce the OW herd size. If that happens we are reducing the overall herd.

Now here is a simplified chart for Jr Alties to review. it will help remind them they can't have thier cake and eat it too.

Table 1. Deer Harvest Guide
If the number of bucks harvested on your land is: 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
and you want your deer herd to: then harvest this many antlerless deer:
increase rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NONE
increase slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ....................1 3 5 6 8 10 11 13 14 16
maintain present level . . . . . . . . . . .................2 5 7 10 12 15 17 19 22 24
decrease slowly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...................6 8 11 14 17 20 22 25 28
decrease rapidly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...................7 10 13 16 19 23 26 29 32


to get bigger bucks, you have to reduce herd size to get better habitat an reduce stress. If our herd is as "big as ever", then nobody could see just as many bucks AND have them be bigger. You could have less bucks, and they could be bigger, but it would work better if everyone were following AR and not just a portion of the population. As it is we have watered down version of AR/HR that hasn't produced much yet.

....other than wishfull thinking that is.


compare the chart above to a county in pa like Centre county.
2970 antlered deer harvested to 6560 antlerless deer harvested. Now run your finger over the chart to a place where you are harvesting more than twice as many antlerless as antlered and what does the corresponding title say?? Lets do it together....

pick 20 antlered deer harvested and then go down the chart to the max for does which 32 (not even twice as much) and what does the corresponding chart heading say?

"decrease rapidly" hmmmmmm....

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The funny thing is that Pa's herd is not your herd, my herd or Joe Blows herd. It is every hunter who buys a license therefor it must be managed as such. There are planty of rules in place that restrict what you can and can't do as a hunter, hence the hunters manual. You say that there was nothing in place to tell me what I can and can't shoot, but on the contrary. Every year they tell me when I can shoot a buck and when I can shoot a doe. They tell me how many of each animal I am allowed and whet I must do with each animal after it has been shot. So if you are saying that you don't have the freedom to choose any more than you missed that boat a long time ago. Rules are in place to manage the herd wether you like them or not. If you want to shoot whatever the heck you want then move to.....oh wait, there is no state where you can shoot what you want, when you want.

No crap the harvest numbers are going to drop. You just told millions of hunters not to shoot spikes and forks! This is the point. Less yearling harvested = the more bigger bucks there are.It's like telling half the country they aren't allowed to drive anymore and then standing there shocked when yearly accidents go down.

Once again I refer back to my statement earlier. Since when did you actually have complete freedom of choice when it came to hunting. If this was the case every Tom,Dick and Harry would be out with a spotlight at midnight knocking off every deer in their neighbors cornfield. Now why shouldn't that be allowed? I mean, if you are REALLY concerned about our freedom of choice then this sounds like a much more blatant disregard for our rights than antler restrictions. I'll tell you why it's not allowed. It's because of game management and conservation which is the same reason AR's are in place.

It's funny how this works. I'm no math genius but if our herd was staying stable when we were harvesting over 200,000 bucks/year. Then how are we losing Bucks if we hervest around 60,000 less Bucks/year. This is Physically impossible. Without AR's in place there would be roughly 150,000 less bucks in the woods. But then again there would be 150,000 hunters who would have a beautifull set of spikes to hang on their wall (or make a keychain out of).

What you are saying Chickory is a nice soundbite, but it doesn't stand up after srutiny. Yea, we could have let the spikes walk so we could have bigger deer next year...but...oh wait. He wouldn't have made it because some weekend warrior would have blasted 20 holes in him as soon as he crested the next ridge. Once again proving that without AR's the few hunters who would practice quality management would be wasting their time.

Now Pa has less deer and more bucks which reduses the herd and improves the ratio so we can slice, dice, chop, cut, or puree that any way you want and the bottom line is that Alt is doing what he said he would. And to take it a step further in one breath you are telling us that the deer population is way down and the next breath you are saying that if we don't reduce our herd then their won't be any habitat for our bigger bucks. So which one is it, you can't change your stance on an issue just so it supports the point you are currently trying to make because it will only nullify your previous argument.

Looks like win - win in my book.;)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Chick,
That may be true early on, when there is an overabundance of deer per hunter per mile, but as the herd is reduced a reciprocity factor kicks in.
Meaning that as the herd numbers fall, there is a falling hunter success rate (heaven forbid!) As this happens, the holdover sub AR bucks from previous years become legal once again, and a large buck harvest is expected. (I think it will be this year, bud) When DD numbers reach a target goal, expect a reduction in antlerless allocations. (again, heaven forbid!) Alt knows his stuff. What he goofs on will be corrected. Adjustments will be made on a constant basis.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You PA. guys crack me up :D


Teaching wildlife management to ya'll is like teaching College Algebra to 1st graders. You've got to give Alt credit for taking on such a pain in the butt job.

Unstead of Antler Restrictions, they should pass a law where only mature bucks are taken, which is ALOT better for the herd. LOL, you guys would really freak out...........

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Then change the channel!!!!!!!!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You are entitled to your opinion and you can expect whatever you want , but the facts prove you are wrong. WMU 2G is already 3 DPSM below its OWDD goal and anterless allocations did not decrease and in fact ,they allocated more DMAP tags.

If the number of hunters decrease significantly ,buck harvests may in fact increase , but it will be due to an increasing herd ,which is the exact opposite of what Alt was hired to accomplish and that is herd reduction. So far the only thing Alt has reduced is the buck harvest and hunters satisfaction with his plan. As yet Alt has not corrected any mistake he has made and there is no indication that will change in the future.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

This tells me that the OWDD estimates were too conservative in the first place. DMAP is for overpopulated pockets of private property are they not?
Are you saying that property owners should endure damage to their real estate so thousands of "1 day a year" hunters can shoot their dink and be back to the truck by 10:00 am? I have always believed DD estimates to be conservative anyway.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

If the OWDD were too conservative they would have been more 50% below the max. carrying capacity. however, they are set at 50% of the max. CC for forested habitat ,so there is no way you can claim they are too conservative.

The vast majority of DMAP tags have to allocated to DCNR or Allegheny Nat'l Forest Land and very few in comparison are allocated to private land. When I called a private land DMAP landowner he said all the tags were allotted to the hunters that normally hunt his land and he was not interested in having any more hunters.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I was not referring to the OWDD goal being conservative, But the estimates of the actual OWDD herd. ....I.E. actual deer on the hoof, being conservative.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Just what evidence or stats can you provide to support that claim? The harvest rate in 2 G correlates directly with the number of fawns a herd of 12 DPSM can support.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Deer don't fill out census cards. hunters frequently fail to fill out harvest cards. The DD numbers are guesses only. My opinion, from my own observation in my hunting areas, is that the DD figures are conservative. This opinion I base on what I see harvested, and the deer numbers that still remain after seasons, and the high numbers of deer in place for the next hunting year. I don't have a phone book of stats to quote for you, just my own experience.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I gotta' write that down.... "a reciprocity factor" hehehe... thats a good one.

Here is anoooother quote for ya' from the experts at the PGC.
"Plotted over time, buck harvests serve as a good deer population barometer because hunter pressure on the resource changes little from year to year. Antlerless harvests, conversely, are influenced by antlerless deer license sales."

and I will remind you that I believe what the PGC says.
"You better get used to seeing less deer" <= Dr. Alt January PGC meeting

Your reciprocity factor is humorous, its will provide me with a few giggles in my tree stand this year. but it won't provide you with more bucks for 2004. Sorry, but with less does in the herd you have less recruitment. Fecundity has not changed and now we do not have as many deer being recruited. 20% of that big 325,000 AL harvest were button bucks and thats 325,000 does that will not contibute to the recruitment of this years. :D

Take some time to look at the numbers and it will dawn on you why you will see no better buck numbers in 2004.

1994 157,030 238,051
1995 182,235 248,348
1996 153,432 197,565
1997 176,677 220,339 tags 797,000 used 745,000
1998 181,449 196,040 tags 797,000 used 745,000
1999 194,368 184,224 tags 890,000 used ?
2000 203,221 301,379 tags 830,650 used 828,000
2001 203,247 282,767 tags 780,250 concurrent season
2002 165,416 352,113 tags 1,029,350.
2003 142,270 322,620 tags 1,040,000


when you have low tag allocations you will have a high antlered harvest follow
when you have a high tag alloc. you will have a lower antlered harvest follow

this years harvest of buck will be <142,000

its all in the numbers.

Hey, maybe you better send out a memo on 'reciprocity', apparently the deer don't know about it. Giggle- giggle.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

So let me get this straight. If the tag allocations are really low than the following year the anter harvest will be really high because there are more doe popping out deer and vice versa. That means with tag allocations being at an 8 year low in 2001 then we should have had a he// of a year in 2002. Oh wait...we didn't. Your proof positive explanation and data sure make your argument rock solid ;).

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You are going to have to let go of the past, Chicory.
The new standard of buck harvest is going to be lower. Apparently you are still wanting to compare the old ways to the new. We are obviously not going to shoot the sheer numbers of bucks due to the new standard. I keep assuming that this is understood, but some people keep bringing back the same moot point, and trying to argue it. When I say we will see an increase in the buck kill, in no way am I saying that we will ever see the numbers of old. I thought we ALL understood this. HR means fewer. Fewer fawns, Fewer does. FEWER BUCKS. The hunters that take it serious, invest the time, do the preparation, be in the woods, will be rewarded with more mature bucks. Some will get "lucky", but as a rule, luck is made by work.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Your problem is that Alt, the head of the deer management team told hunters the exact opposite. He said we would see more and bigger buck than we have ever seen before in PA. He said AR would double the number of 8+ pt. buck. He said AR would double the number of 2.5 + buck. He said that hunting would be better than ever . And, he also said that buck harvests would return to normal after the first year of AR.

But the fact is that AR only increased the harvest of 2.5 + buck from 30 K in 2002 to 36K in 2003 , which is an increase of 20% compared to Alt's prediction of a 100% increase. Alt lied, you bought the lie,and are now defending the indefensible.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Exactly!:D

And here goes ol DD again.....

Defending the indefensible???? You mean like complaining about the increased button buck kill in one thread and then admitting to 5 of 6 of your kills being BB's
That sounds preetty indefensible to me![:'(]

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Right on the money!
The guys that complain about not seeing bucks or not being able to shoot 1.5 bucks, can't resist shooting BB. They freely admit to whacking them on a consistant basis. seems to me that they want large numbers of bucks to shoot, but when it comes to crunch time, can't hold back on shooting BB. They will take their deer no matter the consequences. Kind of a "gotta have one now, to hell with later" mentality. I'm sure mistakes will happen, but an experienced hunter should be able to distinguish a BB, or at least a fawn of any kind, from a 1.5 or older animal. Lay off the BB and your probs will be over! If it is legal (or at least loophole legal) it dies, obviously.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You simply don't know what you are talking about. I never complained about harvesting too many BB. I didn't say it was a shame that hunters kill so many BB, I simply pointed out it was one reason for the lower buck harvests.

Anybody that knows anything about hunting in PA should know that in order to reduce the herd by 50%, as Alt wants to do, it will be necessary to harvest a significant number of fawns because fawns make up around 45% of the anterless deer. So, if you support herd reduction, you have to support shooting fawns and BB ,just as I do.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Unlike you , I accept the fact that we will not have a large number of bucks to shoot as the herd is being reduced and not shooting BB,won't change. BB that are never born will never develop into an AR legal buck,so you are reducing the number of future buck whether you shoot a amture doe or a BB.

You claim to support herd reduction and Alt's plan, but how much herd reduction has Alt's plan produced? The answer is the herd increased instead of decreasing as planned,because Alt was stupid enough to implement AR and tell hunters to pass on small deer . That was about a dumb a move as any deer manager has ever made.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

yep, they sure do killer. :) because in 2001 we had some thing that changed the hunters success rate. Like concurrent seasons:D something like that or the converse like switching from rifle to shotgun affect success rate. But if you have no change to success rate then you have a pretty predictable outcome, just like the article from our friends at the PGC says.


Lets go down to the chart again and review the numbers. Put your finger on the first line....move it over and down some..... ype, thats it and it says.....less deer = less deer;)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Yes, alt want's the herd reduced hence the extra 510,000 doe tags that were made available since AR's went into place. I don't know about you but common logic suggests that if there are an extra half million doe tags purchased over the past two years then there should be a reduction in herd size. Now if the main indicator of herd size is harvest records (as stated earlier in this thread) then lets look at it this way. In 2001 203,000 buck were harvested as compared to 165,000 in 2002 which means there is an increase of 38,000 deer that are still alive therefor the antlered deer population INCREASED which is what alt said would happen. Now also in 2001 there was 282,000 doe harvested as apposed to 353,000 in 2002 which by basic math means that there was an extra 62,000 doe harvested which reduces the amount of doe in the woods by that amount. Again, what Alt said he would do. Now by doing some simple adding and subtracting you can figure out that the deer harvest totals have increased (which means reducing herd size) while the ratio of bucks to doe has improved (Which is seen in my previous example). So you can try and turn the numbers any way you want to keep the dillusion alive that Alt is lying but some simple second grade math proves otherwise. Less buck killed = more bucks in the woods. More doe killed = less doe in the woods and as long as the increase in doe kill is greater than the reduction in antlered harvest then the herd will continue to be reduced and the amount of bucks will continue to increase. It's physically impossible to state otherwise unless aliens are taking them for experiments.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

OK lets look at you "rock solid" data. I'll try and make this as simple as possible. So you are telling me that concurrent seasons have changed the hunters success rates. Now what I want you to do is put your finger on the antler harvest for 2000 and note that number (write it down if you have to) Now move your finger to 2001 in the same column (that would be down;)) and note the drastic change you were talking about in success rate...oh...wait a second it didn't really change at all. Now put you finger on the doe harvest for 2000 (once again write the number down ;)) now move your finger down once again and note the drastic increase in hunters success for concurent seasons. Holy $#@! I can't believe it. The doe harvest actually FELL by a whopping 18,000 which in the overall picture isn't that much of a change in success rate. And if it did come into play it would only harm you previous argument of tag allocations because more doe in the woods (Due to the drastic decrease in success from 2000 to 2001) would mean MORE buck the next year (as you stated earlier) when in fact there was less. So maybe you should be the one learning how to move you finger around the chart.;);)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

That is not what Alt said would happen. He said AR would double the number of 2.5+ buck and double the number of 8 pt+ buck, but it only increased the number of 8+ buck by 20% , not 100%.

You have one major problem and that is all the experts in the PGC disagree with you. The 2003 annual report states that the herd has been steadily increasing since 1999 and last years harvest only kept the herd stable. Therefore , according to the experts there has been no herd reduction and buck harvests should be over 203K , if AR worked the way Alt said it would. Remember ,he said buck harvests would return to normal after the first year.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Is there anyone out there that got the impression that Old DD here was NOT objecting to: herd reduction, increased BB kill, and the recent lower buck harvests.

FLIP-FLOP!!

I guess John Kerry is your choice for Prez to!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

It is too bad you can't discuss more than one topic at a time without getting them throughly confused. I have constantly said I was in favor of herd reduction where needed. I said we shot those BB to insure we had some herd reduction in our area and I have stated we would have preferred to shoot adult doe . There has been no flip flopping on my part , but Alt has been changing his tune repeatedly.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

So it only increased the number by 20% and not 100%. he//, it's only been in effect for two years, you've got to give it a chance. That's the problem with some hunters, they think monster deer grow on trees and they want to see full results in 1 year or they think everythings a failure. These are usually the same ones who think "hunting" consists of walking 10 feet of the road, sitting for an hour and heading back to camp before breakfast is cold. So what if Alt was off on the time frame. The numbers are still pointed in the right direction. You said yourself mature buck harvest is up 20%, it just may take longer to get as high as you see fit. As far as the herd growing I can't see how that's possible seeing as how we are harvesting more deer than before with the majority of those deer being does (meaning less offspring). On this I have to disagree with the pgc. I let the numbers and what I see in the woods dictate my opinions and not an annual report. All in all I think there are less deer with a better ratio and more bucks. This is the first time in years I have seen more buck than doe on my property with the smallest buck being a 120-130 class 8 point and the largest being a 170+ class 14 point. Without AR half of these would have been shot 3 years ago when they were 60 lb fork horns.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

AR will not have a significant cummulative effect since we harvested around 86% of the buck that we carried over fron 2002. If HR progresses we will continue harvest a higher percentage of our buck as BB, which means fewer buck will be available to be protected by AR, so the number of 2.5+ buck will decrease as will the number of 8+ pt. buck.

If you are only seeing AR legal 2.5 buck, how many 1.5 buck will AR save on your property this year and how many of those big buck do you think willl survive to become 3.5's. If there actually are more buck than doe on your property, how will the doe be able to replace all those AR legal buck that will be harvested this year?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Since AR has gone into place there has been roughly 99,000 buck that haven't been taken that would normally have been taken. So where did these buck go? You can't just pretend they disappeared off the face of the planet. That's half of our yearly harvest. How can you say that since we are harvesting 50,000 less antlered deer a year that there are now less bucks in the woods. It's like wiping before you poop...it just don't make no sense. ;) If you are given a standard population and you take a given consistent amount from that population then all of a sudden reduce the amount taken by 25% it's impossible for the population to be reduced. It's common statistics. Also the amount of BB taken a year has increased but not as great as you make it sound. Look at our highest antlerless harvest before AR, it was 301,379 deer, and last year we took 322,620 antlerless deer. That's only a difference of 21,000 deer of which less than half were BB's whick means that the increased amount of BB's taken only accounts for 2% of the entire antlerless harvest.


First of all I think that half of those AR legal deer will make it to next year. I say this because of past experience. You are assuming that all the deer are 2.5 and 1.5. I already told you that I have seen a 170+ 14 point and 3 other buck over 130. The 170 alone has to be at least 3.5 and I'm sure one of the others is already 3.5 as well which means that they have already been legal in past seasons and have made it through. Also you are assuming once again that just because I haven't seen that many doe means that they aren't there. Maybe you should take into consideration that I only had my trail camera out for 3 days and these were the deer I saw or my neighbors have seen. Of course they aren't gonna call me up and say "you won't believe it I just saw 5 doe in the yard". This means that yes, I have seen more buck than doe but it also means that I haven't had much time to scout. It also means that this is the first time in years that I have been able to scout so little and see so many mature bucks. So to reiterate, I can guarantee that there are planty of doe on my land to replace the few buck that are taken. Your statements jump to conclusions based on what i wrote in two sentences. You asume that when I say I have SEEN more then it must be written in stone that there ARE more which is your first mistake. There are many factors that need to be taken into consideration such as scout location, and scout time. What you are saying would be like me walking out the door and counting the first 3 cars that go by with 2 being Hyundai's and 1 being a Ford and saying well there are absolutely without a doubt more hyundai's on the road than ford's.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

That is the most silly thing you've said yet. Shooting BB to achieve herd reduction. I'll think of that in my stand to keep me amused on slow days.
If you can't find a doe, go home empty handed. You will still feel good about yourself, trust me.


Flip-flop flip-flop

Alt = FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Me Too.....less heads, better ratio, more mature bucks in the herd, ummhmm. yep.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

What is the infamous "reciprocity factor", Alex?