RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

While most hunters agree that the herd should be reduced where the other guy hunts, how many hunters in in 5 C think the herd should be reduced from 19 DPSM to 6 DPSM, or from 17 DPSM in 5 B to 5 DPSM, or from 26 DPSM to 9 DPSM in 1 A , or from 21 DPSM in 5A to 8 DPSM?

There is no doubt that the majority of hunters want the herd to be managed at sustainable population levels , but very few hunters would agree that there is a need to decimate the herd in the areas with the best habitat.

BTW, if herd reduction was Alt's primary goal ,why hasn't he reduced the herd by 5% /yr. as he said he would do? Why did the buck harvest decrease by30% ,but the OW herd increased by 20%? How , does adding more OW buck to an over browsed habitat , help balanace the herd with the habitat?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You do hear it just about everywhere. At work, in a Kmart, at camp.... there are very few people I know who support the current deer plan, anymore. And I believe I have read a few comments in that regard here on this ole' messageboard as well. And by the way, most are not 'anti' as you put it. They were just sitting the fence waiting for something substantial to be delivered, and when it dawned on them that this plan is mediocre at best and just a different version of deer management with a lot less quantity.....they began to balk.

Its a smaller herd with less hunters taking home buck. No one I have talked with stopped me in mid sentence and said "oh, but I'm excited about seeing less and having our camp take less".

No, the everyday Joe Hunter is not thrilled with todays deer herd. but as you said there are a small group of sportswriters and to a degree sportsmans groups who depend on thier bootlicking with the PGC to get stories and favors so they are nigh to publicly say what they really think.

On some websites you can be censored or restricted by moderators for asking any tough questions about the program. This one seems a little more open to discussion, but not all are. And since they are not public, but private and can censor at will we have no good barometer of public attitude on the subject today as we speak.

Now surely you can pause in your name calling for a few moments and recall that at the PGC meetings in Harrisburg there were quite a few who spoke at the podium negatively of the deer plan. I know one of them;) and he ain't no member of no sportsmans group. if you were there you would remember him as an owner of a sporting goods shop who soke passionately about how the majority of hunters who come in his shop do not like the antler restrictions, the herd reduction in areas where it is not needed, and that older hunters are having a very hard time finding deer since the plan went into effect. He described how many people he spoke to did NOT like the plan and it made him drive down to Harrisburg.

So in summary, you are just trying to make a villan out of a concerned sportsmans group. How low is that? to try and make it sound like only one group is concerned? Where I come from we equate that Dan Rather-esqe behavior with the shallow end of the hunting community gene pool.

try to rise above petty villification and and join the rest of us in civil, honest discussion. If you want to manufacture falsehoods, like 'Unified is the only group who speaks out against the deer program' then you probably want to go to www.cbsnews.com


no, there were quite a few individuals from Union County, Snyder County and all over at the meeting I attend who spoke about thier disagreement with the current program. And I think rational people know that. And they remember the groups who testified that the PGC should "ignore" hunters unfounded concerns. And of course we all remember the DCNR employees, Pinchot foundation members and bughuggers who testified that hunters opinions should not matter to the PGC.

Yes, WE REMEMBER.

So far Dr. Alts plan has failed to produce much of anything. He says the herd is bigger than ever....but our buck harvests have dropped three years in a row. The novelty of shooting 4 does has worn off and now its dawning on most guys that less deer REALLY equals less deer.

The PGC is giving you less, so timber companies can have more. Doesn't it feel good?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

What bothers me the most is that QUANTITY is what is most important to most that are opposed.

Frankly, I know many more that agree with the program than oppose it. I don't hear that sentiment around here much at all at the shops. Sure, there are a few, but most are supportive. The guys I've talked to in the woods want to see more deer, but they like AR. I honestly think HR is what most are complaining about. AR gets thrown in as the cause, but most don't even thin about what they're saying. Restricting the antler size of bucks does nothing to reduce the herd....the opposite is true. HR is what many are up in arms about and frankly I think they're just greedy and need to adapt.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Well said, Jason

It depends on when you were brought into deer hunting in PA. I remember when a guy would hunt hard all season and possibly not get a shot op at a deer. Seems that when you did get one it was so much more satisfying and you had a real sense of accomplishment. The last 10 to 15 years have really spoiled alot of the "trout fishermen" in PA. Instant, easy results and gratification are the objectives in todays world. The program is working. Herd reduction AND some dandy bucks around, for those that desire the challenge of hunting them. Even though there are more big bucks, that doesn't mean they will be easy to kill. A buck gets real elusive when he gets older. I think the program has done more to restore hunting as a true discipline and not a casual activity.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I couldn't agree more! Sadly though, I've only been hunting for 12 years and I grew up in Western PA where all the deer are! I now live in NW PA and there are a lot less deer up here in the ANF than we had back home on the farms. I kill more deer now than ever before and it's all on public land. What's so sad about that????? Well, I'll tell ya!;) I remember seeing herds of does on the rifle opener. I remember seeing herds of doe all through doe season. It isn't like that anymore and the hunting is making me a much better hunter than I was 5 years ago. I now HAVE to work or I don't succeed. Before all I had to do was be in the woods and eventually I'd get lucky. Not to burst anyones bubble, but I think the hunting is better and hunters either need to HUNT or take up some other form of instant gratification pastime.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

My first season hunting the ANF was 1978. We used to see 30-40 does and fawns A DAY! If someone got a buck it was usually a spike. Man, you felt like a big shot shooting that spike, it was a big deal then. But the herd WAS mismanaged BACK THEN, .....severely. PA was just a game farm for malnourished 1.5 year old spike bucks....that WAS sad.

You get, I get it. No sense beating our brains out trying to explain it.
Hunting has never been better, enjoy it while it lasts.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I agree that people do need to adapt to your "lowered expectations deer managment strategy". You have to because you have no choice. Its been mandated to the hunters of the state by our leaders who feel hunters desires are no longer important. Certainly not as important as conservationists and thier money.

So I agree with you, if you are going to hunt you should get used to seeing less, taking less and having to move to new locations every few years and leaving long traditions behind. Tradition is a bad word now. If you had a camp in a good location and it dried up? Well you just have to take the lowered expectation approach and pay the rent for camp but hunt somewhere else. If its your family farm, "oh well", you should drive hours away to seek out hunting as its not the PGC's job anymore to provide hunting opportunity in the whole state, just parts of it now. And not good hunting, just mediocre, like Jason likes.

Of course some hunters are still taking bucks and see no problem, they see no need to support the concerns of hunters who are not lucky enough to live in Greene County or hunt on Daddy's farm in Bradford. No need to worry as long as you are "getting yours".........but over time more areas will dry up as the herd is downsized as promised. A little here...a little there and it will compress the hunter pool into a smaller area. Then when they get to experience no buck taken for a couple of seasons for ANYONE in thier camp (alpha, beta,omega) they will be singing a different tune!

....Because there were a few counties this 2003 season that saw appreciable dips in buck harvest. We dropped from 203K to 165K trickled down to 142K and we don't know what the PGC is forecasting for this years harvest because they are tight lipped and hiding, and won't give out a estimated herd size or harvest. 135K this year?:)

Its easy to blow off any concerns near the beginning of our reductions, only a handfull of the 800,000 hunters really experiencee the slight reduction so far. But with large allocations of tags +dmap it will keep creeping towards new areas and new hunters.

In trying put down anyone with a concern over quantity, you generalized that anyone who is disappointed in this current "lowered expectation" deermanagement wants to be spoiled and wants "trout like" conditions. Thats a joke. Nobody would mind if there were a few less deer, but they still took decent bucks every now and then....but that ain't the case :D There are areas where expereinced hunters, beginner hunters, and everything in between are not able to take a buck due to our lack of sightings. (again note that no just one or two guys are taking less. Our harvest dropped from 203,000 to 142,000 thats 61,000 REAL people who are going home with a doe as a consolation prize.

You forget that some areas are not blessed with high populations before AR/HR in PA. you probably don't know that because you don't hunt in every county. So we have to listen to the hunters who are experienceing first hand the benefits or PROBLEMS with this smaller herd Lowered expectations mediocre herd. Dr. ALt said as he reduced the herd he would listen to hunters and tweak where neccesary. If Dr. Alt can listen to concerns then why can't hunters listen to the concerns of fellow hunters????

Oh, thats right Dr. Alt is pretty much hiding these days and not saying, reporting, or doing much is he???? Maybe all that talk about making adjustments was just lip service?

Like "more and bigger bucks"?:)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I have said it before and I will say it again...If you would be happy shooting a spike or a forkhorn then you should shoot mature does instead, for the good of the herd. What good does it do, shooting an immature buck that has not even begun to see their full potential? The old days were truly sad in hindsight, but I was young and knew no better, so any buck, no matter how tiny, was a gold medal to me. I would truly treasure taking a mature doe over a dink any day, I quit shooting dinks about 8 years ago. If it is not mature enough to be worth the taxidermists fee then it walks.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Well guys, this is real clear. It appears Jason, Livbucks and myself all started our deer hunting careers in the ANF. We've all stated that the deer herd numbers are down there but we all conceded that thats the way it has to be. We also all seem to be able to continue to kill both quantity and quality there as well as in the more productive southwest.
Sounds like its a matter of being adaptable to me.

Here's the difference as I see it

Alt is going to manage for the benefit of the resource first. Period. He realizes that hunters are needed in his plan and those who can adapt will benefit as well.

Some hunters think that deer management should be run for the benefit of quantity minded hunters only. Chicory, for example says:

And as for this little pearl:
Oh, and I'm the name caller here?

If you wish to see Rather-esque behavior, the unified group can provide all you want. If they fall short, simply read some of DD's "cyphering" on these pages!

What we have here is a respected scientist supported by people who realize that the hunting in their favorite areas had to change for the good of the resource opposed by a small vocal crowd of "good ol boys" who dont want their traditions messed with and would rather fight passionately to cling to the past.

Who's on the shallow end of the gene pool again?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

For the first time in a long time you are right. AR does nothing to reduce the herd and in fact , it is responsible for the increase in the OW herd . In 2001 the PGC said that a harvest of 284 K anterless deer reduced the OWDD by 8% . But , in 2002 we harvested 352K anterless deer but only 165 K buck and the OW herd increased by 1.6%. So the reduced buck harvest due to AR, offset the increased anterless harvest and the herd increased instead of decreasing as Alt predicted. In 2003 we had the second highest anterless harvest, but the buck harvest declined even more and the PGC said the herd remained stable. But, if we had havested 203K buck as we did in 2001., the OW herd would have been reduced by 61 K.

Therefore , IMHO it is those that support AR that are greedy and have little concern for protecting the habitat and are only concerned with harvesting bucks with larger antlers.