RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

First of all I did not say that there are not more PS buck than we had with AR. What I said was that if HR progresses there will be fewer buck to be saved by AR and eventually that will result in fewer 8+ pt buck. Prior to Alt being appointed the 10 yr. avg. anterless harvest was 200K resulting in an avg. BB harvest of 44K. Now compare that to 62K BB harvested in 2001, 77K in 2002 and 88K in 2003.

If you have a lot of posted ,unhunted land ,than maybe 50% of those buck will survive. But, once again you disagree with the state stats that show that we harvested 86% of the 2.5+ buck that were carried over from 2002. Furthermore, if your AR legal buck have such a high survival rate ,there was no need for AR in the first place.

Okay, in the future I won't believe anythng you post and just assume you are intentionally trying to mislead the readers.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Harvesting 6 BB on 35 acres equates to a herd reduction rate of 110 DPSM. If every group of hunters were as succesful as our group , the overpopulation problem would be solved in one or two years.

I found a doe and I harvested that deer and I still had an unfilled anterless tag the last day of ML, so if we all had passed on those BB that would have allowed the OW herd to increase by 6 DPSM. A buck causes just as much crop damage as a doe and it causes just as much damage to a car. Shooting any deer contributes to herd reduction and only those who don't care about HR have a problem with harvesting BB.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

35 acres is a postage stamp in a deer's range. If all hunters were as "successful" as you, the b/d ratio would be off the charts. Even if hunters killed all but one buck in a 5 mile radius of your place the herd would still grow the next year. Several bucks from far away will infiltrate your territory very quickly during the rut, and one buck can breed many, many does. Shooting BB to accomplish HR is the most shortsighted plan I have ever heard of. You are trying to manage your WMU from your backyard.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

What you don't seem to be able to comprehend is that it wasn't a choice between shooting an adult doe or a BB , it was a choice of shooting a BB or not shooting anything. Therefore, no matter how you slice it there were six less deer the following year because we harvested those BB. than if we would have passed on those deer. The simple fact is that trying to save BB and small buck protected by AR is the reason that HR has failed. The OW herd would have been reduced by over 85K is we simply had harvested the bucks that were protected by AR.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You would be better off picking door number two. I know, .....my opinion.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You are entitled to your opinion , but apparently it is based solely on your desire to see more buck, with no regard for reducing the herd or protecting the habitat.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The lot isn't posted and there are other hunters that hunt the area so that has nothing to do with it. Also you are saying that all of these AR legal deer are making it from one season to the next so what is the need for AR. Well, I'll make it real simple. First without AR in place these AR legal deer would have been shot well before they were this size. And also, these deer were carried over from a year when AR was in place which means that most of the male offspring they produced weren't filled with 20 pounds of lead the first 2 hours of opening day by someone who just had to have the 4 inches of antler to add to their pile.

You just love turning words around don't you. No wonder you'll never be for AR because you read what someone posted which to most people makes perfect sense and then turn them around to further help your argument regardless of what was posted. I NEVER said don't believe what I posted. I said that I have seen alot of AR legal buck this year. I also said that I have seen more buck than doe this year. What you ASSUMED was that by those two sentences that there MUST be less doe than buck. Just further proof that you jump to conclusions as long as they help your argument. This thread is getting rediculuos and turning into a pi$$ing contest. No one is ever going to change their mind so I'm not wasting my time and this will be my last post on the issue. But now I realize that even if the game commission came out and said they counted every deer in the state and had 100% proof that AR was working you would still come up with some way to turn around their findings in your favor. I'll tell you what, this season go out and shoot the first 40 pound button buck you see and I'll send you and extra 10 lbs of meat and the brow tines of the buck I shot last year then you can pretend you shot a spike, would that make you happy? ;):)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You are wong again!! I would be extremely happy if the PGC could show AR was working and the buck harvests retrurned to normal , we doubled the number of 2.5 + buck and the number of 8 pt. buck harvested.

Sorry , but it would be extremely difficult for me to harvest a 40 lb. BB. Almost all of them weigh 70-80 lbs. But , you can still sent me the 10 lbs. of venison , but keep the spikes. I'm not a rack hunter anymore.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

A 70 lb BB will yield about 25 lbs of meat, if you are lucky.
Again, a good waste of a resource.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Now that is pretty funny! Suddenly you wat to save BB in order to aviod wasting the resource. well let's see how sincere you really are.

If hunters would have passed on the 68 K BB in 2003, 15-20% of those deer would have died from normal ,non-hunting mortality. So , 68K X.15 = 1020 deer wasted. That equates to a waste of 20,400 lbs. of venison. Therefore, you should congradulate our group for not wasting 120 lbs. of perfectly good venison.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Absolute proof that DD is willing, ready, and able to twist and pervert the numbers to make whatever point he wants to make no matter how ridiculous.

Figures don't lie but liars sure can figure!!!!![:'(]

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

You made an accussation , now I challenge you to support it with facts. Show everyone what stat I posted was wrong. Show everyone how I twisted and perverted the numbers. You can't do it because you couldn't figure your way out of a paper bag if one end was open.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

14 pages of bullcrap, its the same thing over and over. Isint hunting season around the corner? Dont you guys have to get ready for it??

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Why is it we never see a PA deer hunt on the OLN channel or any other one for that matter, but we see lots of Texas deer hunts? It's not because our racks are small, because you can find huge racks in SW and SE PA. Maybe it's because it's so easy to kill a deer in Texas, on someone's private ranch, over bait?
From Texas game regs:
and
What'sa matter, things too boring on your board, like your deer hunting?

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I would agree to a degree that PA bucks are very wild and are chased hard and learn to survive the hunting pressure. Texas ranches are a very different experience in some ways. I would not characterize ALL Texas deer hunting as being easy though. I am sure that there are alot of wild areas and wild deer in Texas. Lets be fair and not start a war between PA and Texas.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Im ready to go. I prepare all year, I could go hunting at a moments notice.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I'm ready......

Ready for an even better year with some of those 3.5+ bucks out there!

Ready to do my part helping with the necessary HR by killing does!

Ready to pass on BB's and teach my boys to do the same!

Ready to continue to support an evolving deer management program aimed at a more suitable BD ratio, aimed at balance with the habitat, aimed at more sensible deer numbers, aimed at helping prove the selfish whiners that just cant let go of the past bad practices as wrong wrong wrong!

Oh yeah, the bow is tuned, camo and pack ready, treestands up, landowners schmoozed, hopefully, enough brownie points deposited in the wife bank to keep me out of divorce court......
YUP, READY!!!!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Mike:

I think the reason why you see so many hunts from Texas on T.V is because the tags are unlimited, the bag limits are very liberal, there are thousands of private ranches to hunt, the hunts are easy to film, there are alot of deer, alot of activity, and a very good shot of filming a big buck getting killed. I think the main reason why you dont see many PA hunts on T.V is because most hunters wouldnt be interested in watching the show and/or it would be to hard to film a show.


Yeah its easy to kill a deer around here, mainly because we have so many running around. But most of us set are goals really high and pass on dozens of bucks each year. Personally I only shoot mature bucks
(5 1/2+) so that in it self makes hunting more fun and challenging.


I do have one question, whats the point in posting Tx regulations in your last post?? Aint a damn thing wrong with any of it. Its not like any Texan is going to denie the fact that baiting is legal (which it should be).


Yeah actually it is, over there we dont have 14 pages that have to do with shooting Button bucks and/or the dpqm. :D

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Shows how some dullards can read, but cannot comprehend.

Pa is going through the biggest changes in hunting in 75 years, and you don't think anyone is going discuss it on a message board?

BWWWAhaaahaaaahaaaaa........ too funny!

Unlike some sports where people have no real deep thought or convictions on the subject...we are talking about Pa deer hunting traditions. Get it?

Outdoor life featured the deer camp next to ours on one of its magazine covers, and did a story on its traditions and longevity and the family that hunted there for 50 years. They take thier hunting serious, and have never had a population huge enough to get picky and turn down certain bucks because they didn't have the proper head gear.

Pa is a huge deer hunting state that takes the privledge very seriously. Apparently much more serious than the flippant hunters of Texas.

Yea, you can be guaranteed that hunters in Pa WILL be discussing the most controversial deer manager the PGC has ever had (by thier own words), and they will discuss the biggest changes in 75 years for a while...... you have to be daft to think otherwise.

It might be no big deal if the PGC was attempting to provide more bucks and more deer to hunt, but they aren't they are telling hunters they would like to cut the Penna deer herd by half. Which in case you are poor in math, means less opportunity for eveyone and we have experienced three straight years of declining buck harvests.

If they decided to cut the herd in Texas by half I bet it would generate a bit of discussion on the Texas boards too...... Doh...;)

By the way the camp that was once featured on the cover of Outdoor life will sit empty for the first year in many, many years. The sons no longer will make the trip since deer numbers have dropped and success rates have dropped in 4d. As one of the boys said at the end of last season "It ain't worth making the trip anymore". Thier camp hunted for a week and saw nothing shootable.

Now thats a big problem for Penna traditions and hunters.

And that is worth talking about if you are interested in the future of Pa hunting.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

This is great. Our debate is now in Third person. Gotta keep it interesting I guess.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The biggest changes in hunting in 75 years?? LOL. All there doing is trying to make the buck:doe ratio alittle more balanced and trying to get the hunters to pass on dink bucks. This aint rocket science. If we sent a man to Mars or something then I could understand all the post that the subject generates, but come on, where just talking about VERY basic deer management, something that should have been done long ago in PA.


And so what if the number of deer in PA is reduced. Any good wildlife manager knows that the total number of deer should be well below the max. carrying capacity of the land. Seeing a reduced number of does is a good sign, it means the program is working. Hopefully in PA one day you might be able to sit in your stand and see just as many bucks as you do does, with half of those bucks being over 2 1/2 years old. This is what will happen when/if Alts plans come true.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Here Here!! Just to let you know Tex, most of us north of the Mason Dixon line are willing to recognize our past mistakes, fix em, and move on.

The main reason this has generated so many posts is that some of us just cant help defending common sense and good scientific management when it is attacked by the uninformed trying to derail the process with half truth's and distortions.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

It is impossible to have a 1:1 B/D ratio or 50% 2.5 buck , with a 3 pt. restriction and 1 M hunters. With a 1:1 ratio there won't be enough doe to produce enough male fawns to replace the buck that are harvested, because AR doesn't protect enough 1.5 or 2.5 + buck to allow the herd to reach a 1:1 ratio.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Exactly what did Gary ALt do to agitate you so much?

You have complained that he wants to reduce the herd too drastically and in the next breath said his herd reduction strategies are not going to go far enough because he protects the small antlered bucks.

You've complained about the BB kill increasing with the increased doe tags but admitted to killing a disproportionate number of Bb's yourself

You've made it clear you dont want AR but in your very last post you said it wont protect enough 1.5 or 2.5 bucks.... should AR be more restrictive to protect more bucks???

Sounds kinda like John Kerry..... say what you need to say to make George W.... er Gary Alt look bad. Dont bother you with the facts, you just want to make him look bad.

IT AINT WORKIN!!!!

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

He lied and misrepresented the facts when he tried to sell his plan.


I simply pointed out that implementing AR is counterproductive to herd reduction and I have proven to be correct , since the PGC claims that 1 M tags and a concurrent season has failed to reduce the herd.

No, I did not complain about shooting BB. I simply stated the fact as we reduce the herd by 50% , it will be inevitable that we harvest a significant number of our buck as BB.

Finally, I didn't say AR wasn't protecting enough buck. I said the current restrictions would not protect enough buck to produce a 1:1 B/D ratio. There is no reason why we should have a 1:1 B/D ratio and there is no reason to have AR. Allowing a few more buck to live one year longer does nothing for the reeding ecology, breeding rates or recruitment and it hinders herd reuction.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

In other words its a plan high on hype... and light on substance.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

So which is it again?
Is it that there are no deer left and not like it was in the old days, or;
the herd is bigger than ever.
I am confused.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Yes you are confused, and that is to be expected when you get misleading data from the agency in charge of widlife management.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Well sport, those words came right from Pa's Game commission exec director Vern Ross and the head of the PA deer team Dr. Alt . So now you are disputing what they say too?
Wow, you know more than the people who hunt here, the people who developed the plan, and the exec director who is implementing it? Too funny!

Maybe before you throw out generalities and vague stabs at commentary you should do a little reading. Pa has always been below its max carrying capacity of the land. Pa's biological carry capacity number used in deer management is based on 50% of what the
'land will support'. So we have no even come close to mark set by biologists for CC in pa when the herd was at its highest point.

Pa's goal is to reduce the state to 13 dpm and it is reported by the PGC to be at 30 today. So tex you glossed over that fact in your flippant reply. Is Texas cutting its herd in half???? No..... ? So although you are trying to put down pa's changes as no big deal, it very much is a big deal to have ANY HERD IN THE COUNTRY cut by half.

So far you have gotten our CC wrong.
our adult B:D ratio was 1:2.1 before ar, so you got that part wrong.
and lastly you think we are just lopping off a few doe, which is wrooooooong.

Man your wrong about just about everything you said, except "it ain't rocket science".
You're right its not, and YOU still got it WRONG. :D

Seeing a reduced number of does is a good thing if you were overloaded to start with. But not very many places were overloaded since pa puts 900,000 deer hunters in the woods every season. For ten years Tex, we have been harvesting more antlerless than antlered! And now in 2003 we are at about 2 does for every buck harvested. So Tex, we ain't michigan, we ain't Arkanasas, we ain't like many other states that are taking more buck than doe..... so you better read up sport.

But we know that you know more than the head of the deer team, the head of the agency and the hunters of the state......or at least you think you do...

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

That is not an answer, SPORT!
I want an answer.
Door number 1= no more deer, not like the old days
Door number 2= more deer than ever, plan isn't working
So, put an end to my confusion and give me your final answer. SPORT

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The problem is, it is both, depending on where you hunt in this state, and upon who's land (public/private) you are hunting. Listen, I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and that I'll see tons of deer, and huge bucks on state forest lands I hunt this year. But I'm not hopeful. Good luck to you this season.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

The answer is neither, because the herd has increased in most WMU's and decreased significantly in 2 G and 2 F where most public land is located. That is why hunters are so divided and there is such a large difference in opinions. The guys that hunt 2 A at 36 DPSM, or 2B at 30 DPSM, or 2 D at 29 DPSM think hunting is great and Alt's plan is wonderful. Howver , those that hunt 2 G at 12 DPSM, or 5 C with 19 DPSM have a slightly different perspective.

Furthermore , when the PGc tells us that a harvest of 283k anterless in 2001 reduced the herd by 8% and the harvest of 352K anterless allowed the herd to increase by 1.6% , it is no wonder that many question the validity of the estimated 1.6M PS deer.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

I understand that public land is a tough nut to crack. Always has been. I know that seeing tons of deer is nice and keeps you interested and makes the hunt seem productive, but I have hunted many seasons that I saw tons of deer (on public land, by the way) but failed to see a legal buck. Seasons where nobody that hunted in my area saw a legal buck. That is very disconcerting to know that you will have to look over possibly 40 deer in one day and see NO legal bucks. I don't think that is a good management plan. I think that is a very unnatural condition and very unhealthy for the herd genetics. Protecting bucks to a degree is sound management. I believe that hunters should be encouraged to lobby for changes in individual WMU's to enhance the hunting experience. I don't feel however, that the deer herd should be managed foremost for hunter success at the expense of the resource or detriment to environmental concerns.

I thank you for your wishing me a good season and I wish you the same.

I also want to remind hunters to fully evaluate antlerless deer before they pull the trigger. Sparing BB is the single most important thing we can do to maximize the success of the objectives of the plan. Shooting a BB as a substitute to a doe is a waste of a future buck hunters successful hunting experience. You could be that hunter in a future season that goes home without a nice buck because of it.

24 hours to go to the starting bell. I wish everyone on the board, even those that have differing views than me, their best hunting experience ever.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Alt also ask hunters to protect BB and small deer and guess what happened. After increasing the anterless season buy over 400% and allocating over 1 M anterless tags , the herd has increased instead of decreasing by the predicted rate of 5%/ yr. Now compare that to the success of the previous deer managers who were able to manage the herd so that we had the same OWDD in 1997 as we did in 1987. They accomplished this with a 3 day anterless season and less than 850K anterless tags because there was no protected class of deer and they did not discourage hunters from shooting fawns ,which make up around 45% of the anterless herd.

BTW, during this period buck harvests were considerably higher than the 2003 harvest, even though we had over 30 % fewer deer and hunters were not passing on BB.


Good luck !

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

So there are more deer. And I think it is clear that there MUST be more bucks, with the decreased buck kill over the last few years. You cannot have a bigger herd, restrict the buck harvest, and have fewer buck. That simply is impossible. The bucks saved from AR did NOT simply disappear from the earth. If you are a buck hunter, your prospects are VERY good this year. I know that one must evaluate a buck before shooting it. One cannot simply spot a little peg on a buck's head and blast away. This is called discipline. I also think this is mainly the reason for the declining buck harvest. Hunters are unable to ascertain the legality of a buck in time for a clean shot. Those that refrain from shooting when there is doubt should be commended.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Unfortunately you are wrong and all the facts prove you are wrong. For every doe in the overwintering herd that is replaced by a buck means 1.1 fewer fawns the following year. Harvesting adult doe versus fawns , reduces the breeding rate and recruitment. Anterless harvests increased dramatically since Alt took over and although those harvests failed to reduce the herd , they did reduce the number of BB that survived to become 1.5 buck. AR further reduces the number of legal buck available ,since at least 10% of those buck carried over are lost to non-hunting mortality. It is not as simple as saying we carried over 38K more buck from 2002 so there will be 38K more legal buck in 2003 and the harvest proved that.

The total harvest data also confirm that recruitment is declining since a harvest of only 465K kept the harvest stable in 2003. That means the net number of fawns recruited in 2002 was 465K. However, in 2002 a harvest of 518K allowed the herd to increase by 1.6% , which means the herd recruited 533 K , net fawns. That is why you can save more buck in an increasing herd and still have fewer legal buck.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

And you still maintain it's Ok to shoot 5 of 6 BB's. [:'(][:'(][:'(]

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Yes it is OK to shoot 5 or 6 BB and it is OK to shoot the 68,395 BB we harvested in 2003 . Not only is it OK but it is inevitable, if you really believe in herd reduction instead of just giving it lip service as so many Alt supporters do.

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Yes, some increase in BB kill is inevitable with HR via an increased antlerless kill. Any idiot realizes that. Once again I was pointing out the hypocracy of intentionally or even indifferently allowing your kill to consisit of 83% BB's when you continue to point out that it is counterproductive.

Once again, you seem determined to discredit ALL parts of Alts current policies and killing the BB's just proves that you are willing to do your best help it fail in your own little way.

Of course, statistically, your little campaign to overkill BB's is as insignificant as your misguided opposition to Alts program in the face of support for it from the majority:)

RE: Alt on Penna. Outdoor Life
 

Once again you ignore that the choice was to harvest 1 mature doe and 6 BB or just harvest 1 mature due. We did not target BB and we would have preferrd that all the deer we harvested were all mature doe or adult buck since we enjoy eating venison .

Furthermore, I didn't point out killing BB was counterproductive. That is simply your misguided interpretation. Killing BB is essential to herd reduction but those that support Alt cannot accept this inevitable fact. Whether you like it or not , if you support Alt's goal of reducing the herd by 50%, you are supporting the harvest of more of our buck as BB.

Now if archers stepped up to the plate and decided to participate in managing the herd and double the number anterless deer they harvested , then maybe , the percentage of the anterless harverst that are BB may be reduced. Until that happens ,rifle hunters will continue to be those responsible for controling the herd and they will continue to harvest BB.