Truth on deer in pa.
 

here is video of real TRUTH of why PGC/DCNR/AUDUBON want deer gone in pa.scroll on top to see videos.

www.acsl-pa.org

There is no denying that deer herd management has changed in PA since 2000. However there is also no denying that the quality and quantity of quality mature buck has greatly increased. The program is not a failure. All of PA should be a 4 point restriction!

yes and to increase population because in many places deer herds are down they should make a seperate season for doe and not give out as many tags

in the allegheny national forest that is the biggest natural stand of cherry trees in the world, and the logging industry has alot of influence on game management in that area and the logging company wants the deer out.

i also agree with AR,like you.but HR was overkill.

right now the deer that are left,which is few have some places to get away and hide.

WAIT UNTIL ALL GAS DRILLING CO. HAVE ROADS INTO EVERYWHERE.no deer that are left will have place to get away.

Great Link

Thanks!!!!

Kind of reminds me of the total fraud created by wind and solar power. Conflicts with environmentalists, but in the end it is ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY.

sadly we are losing our hunting.yes its MONEY.we need gas but our deer hunting will suffer even more than now do to open roads excess etc.
DCNR wants more money for their trees, so watching the video will tell you real TRUTH why they used deer to get more money for their wood.killing deer was EASY ONE for DCNR.
BUT WOOD WILL BE NO DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE .but public buying wood will think so.

on that VIDEO there is 3 parts to it with pause between each.

this WOOD certification is going to hit all east states,not only pa.pa was FIRST to GO ON BOARD.
with wilderness areas disappearing do to GAS DRILLING ,DCNR with dmaps and all doe tags,things look very bad for deer hunting.

i was talking to friend in maine, he said,SPROUL IN MAINE WE HUNT DEER LIKE YOU DO BEAR IN PA.i hope we dont see the day that happens but it could get point that we wioll have as many deer as we do bear now in wmu2g of pa.

take care sproul

I have to disagree that the antler restriction is working. The big buck were always here and we had alot of smaller buck that people would not pass up.The deer herd has become very bad on public land making hunters spend alot more time in the woods. As long as the hunters keep shooting the button bucks and doe our hunting will only get worse. The small rack are still getting shot. Most of the big bucks that are shot are on posted land not open to many people to hunt. If we as hunters want the good days of hunting back we must stop shooting the doe and small rack and button bucks to let them grow up to be the trophies we are hunting for.

I think it's a continuing campaign . . .
 

to get the hunter population totals down to half a million hunters in Pennsylvania.
There must be at least 100,000 complaining hunters left, who couldn't find a deer if ten were in a square mile.

I cant figure out whats so bad about spending more time in the woods. My public land buck taken the last friday of rifle season. {take notice Sproul the buck is legally tagged.;)}

The big buck have always been in PA, just not with the numbers there are. There's always 1 hiding out somewhere, but now there are more big rack buck in PA.
"The small rack are still getting shot. " - I don't disagree with this statement, however the small buck are less likely to be harvested now, than before the restriction. This is why I state the 3 pt restriction should actually be a 4 pt restriction state wide. There are large buck killed on public land every year. The hunters who are not shooting them aren't putting in the time and effort into hunting for them. You can't expect to walk onto the same plot of woods 100 other guys have already walked through and find bullwinkle right away. Although sometimes it's better to be lucky then good!

yes,tag is in EAR not on the horns.very good.nice buck too.

i am very active member of USP.they are after doing away with anthler rest.rule no.2 in the lawsuit.i am not.
the reason they feel this way in MY opinion was the pgc felt if it was hard to get buck do to the restrictions on horns, WE WOULD SHOOT A DOE.
look at the video on the site i posted. there is 3 segments.
but the AR in my opinion is working if done right.

is it being done right? no.
5 yr old kids are shown with small bucks and big ones.no TAG is necessary.

do you think the girl in pink is shooting those buck at 21 degrees with sneakers on?no.thats first problem and a FREE tag also.

next, crews driving the deer with KIDS are shooting at any horns they see. they call on radio using SECRET codes that the adult shot the spike buck and a kid should come tag it.

WHAT IS KID LEARNING HERE?
HOW DO YOU FEEL WHEN YOU GO BY RULES AND HUNTERS HAVE WAY OF GETTING AROUND IT?i bet not very good.

to run the AR to make it work ,here is my view.

stop the MENTOURED KIDS program on shooting any buck under 3 points.THE ADULT MUST TAG THE MENTOURED KIDS BUCK WITH HIS TAG.that should get a lot mad at ole sproul as they were getting 2 or more FREE bucks, no taG NECESSARY.
kids 12/16 MUST shoot a buck with 3 points to side.no more DADDY not even looking at points and shooting and saying, JOHNNY COME TAG YOUR SPIKE BUCK.

is this happening,YES.........sad but this is only way i know to stop all this illegal and legal things that are not right.

next make doe permits only for KID .only KID can get doe permit in wmu2g.
if there were lots of deer in WMU2G of pa. i could see different options but from what i see,if rules are not changed, AR is not going to work because too much OUTLAWING is being done.

we are down to about 2dpsm in most of WMU2G.

I got a question on the title of this thread. Why would anyone expect us hunters to believe these videos are the truth, when the guy has so blatantly lied about things in his bio. Even when setting aside the rehashing of conspiracies from the past decade thruout the videos.

Let's be serious here for a minute. I'm not one to just believe anything and everything you read or see on the internet. There's way too much misinformation that been put out there, mainly the unified club. Sorry, just stating facts. Anyways, I took a challenge from some on a message board to do a search of this guy on the web and/or a few emails, and this appears to be another mountain lion attack gone bad. Here's what I've been able to find out about this guy.

-His claim about working for the game commission is false. They have no records of his employment and both current and retired personel have said they never heard of the guy.
-His claim about working for Penn State as a research scientist and ordering several studies done is false, according to PSU's history of their wildlife research unit. His only link was as a student.
-His claim about a newspaper article done on him as "the bear man" seems to be photo-shopped, as the newspaper company has no record of it.
-His claim of Dr. Alt worshiping him and he being the reason Alt choose to study bears has been defunked by the Dr. himself, who claims to not even remember the guy, plus the time frame is way off.
- His claim that he discovered how to age animal teeth by counting the rings is false, since records show biologists across the country had been using that techniques when Eveland would have still been in highschool.
-His claims of developing the game commissions Elk management plan is false and the only reference to Eveland in it is a study done during his time there as a student collecting data for PSU.
-His claim of developing the bear plan is false. Out of more than 60 pieces of scientific literature cited in the plan, only his thesis as a student was he mentioned.
-And exhaustive searches, including at the PSU library, by many people have turned up no mention of this guy in any scientific wildlife reports, citations, or studies.
-And it was pretty well known a few years back that him and a politician were caught trying to broker a backroom deal to use taxpayer money to have him do an audit, out of the light of day. He was later denied because of his bias. The sportsmen wanted a fair, out of state, unbiased company to do it.

So it appears this was a sham like the transmission fluid leaking mountain lions were and the politicians never fell for it. At least those I've talked to.
And there you have the real truth. Now I challenge you to do the same. Don't just take my word for it, as they would like you to do with theirs.

you say you have facts on this person.

being you have way of getting them could you possibly send him e-mail and get his RESPONSE to your info you obtained.

like judge judy said, its heresay if you got it from others,i like to hear his answer back to you.if this guy is fake,which i was told by allegheny sportsmans club that he is NOT,i would like to hear his answers to your info.

here is you tube presentation he did in pa.his whole bio is on here .guy does have impressive rec and confirmed info with people in state in all agencys.
just seems hard to belive after reading all this info and wathing the videos that mr.evaland could be some kind of hoax?


www.acslpa.org there is SELECT drop down board in middle to read his bio and what he has done.

thanks sproul

I'm not about to get into a back and forth and waste both of our times. It's predictable that he'd deny discrepancies. He's not going to all the sudden come clean because of some obscure message board thread on the internet called him out. The internet provides the anonymity to be or say anything. This is why I said don't just take my word, research him yourself. Provide us some opposing proof such as the glaringly absent mention of his supposedly vast amounts of ground breaking work among the scientific wildlife community. Give us the date of that alleged newspaper article. Provide a copy of his PGC management plans, as it should have PGC personnel mentioned all over it. Why doesn't he go to a PGC meeting and make his claims in public. I'm just looking for answers to give this guy some credibility. So far I've come up empty, as many others seemed to have as well.

Bottom line is he made the claims so the burden of proof is on him to back it up. The issue didn't gain the hoopla they expected and they've been eerily silent about it.

Funny how you'd believe his word on the internet but not Dr. Alt's word. Your bias is showing.

As Jerry McGuire says, "show me the money".
BTW, thanks for the civil reply. Have a good weekend and keep yer powder dry.

never said i did not believe dr.alt .its hard to get PGC to come to meetings. i know, i invited many and had people who were like him there.
i was sitting with DR.ALT at meeting. i had state rep hanna with me.here is what he said to rep and me.SPROUL I WANT YOU TO KILL OLD DOE,WE HAVE GOT TO SAVE FAWNS.

rep hanna looked at me, he thought gary at time was very concerned over fawns and deer.
low did he know reason dr.alt said to kill old doe was because she is one that has 2 fawns.NOT ONCE DID HE EXPLAIN THAT BUT TRIED TO MAKE US FEEL HE HAD FEELING FOR THE DEER.

not to get off the topic to much. did you ever attend a QDMA meeting. you think mr.eveland is not creditable which many says he is, go to QDMA meeting.
not being smart, they are biggest bunch of fibbers you will ever come accross.so is dcnr reps that come from PENN STATE that take you out and count deer poo.
when they got caught at poo FIBBING it was stopped, no poo counts now.

Using that reasoning why would you or anyone else believe anything Dr. Alt or the PGC says. He is just a partial list of lies they told and the PGC data proves they were lies.

1. There was a problem with the B/D ratio and age structure of the buck herd.
2. Late bred fawns were due to not having enough bucks to breed the does.
3. Hunters would likely see more and larger buck than ever before due to ARs.
4. The buck harvest would return to normal after the first year of ARs but instead it dropped by 47%.
5. ARs would double the number of 8 pts, but they only increased by 17% not 100%.
6. ARs would increase breeding rates,productivity and decrease the breeding window, but there was no change after 8 years.
7. Forest regeneration would increase significantly as the herd was reduced, but 2 G is still rated poor with only 8-10 DPSM.
8. Hunters should pass on BB to improve the B/D ratio. BB harvests increased ,but the B/D ratio still improved.

I agree, that is a partial list of lies. But then your pretty well known for that Lawrence. Speaking of lies, can you address the many lies within Evelands bio. No one in 5 months has been able to substantiate any of his claims. Can you, with other than opinion or hearsay? Even the politicians are seeing thru his tall tales.

I didn't know we were on a first name basis Oscar. Maybe you would like to post your name and address so I can send you a birthday card. And anytime you think that you can prove any of the items on that list isn't accurate go for it. But be forewarned that I can back up what I said with PGC data and quotes from Alt.

I have no doubt that Eveland exaggerated his bio, but that has nothing to do with validity of the issues he raised in his report. The vast majority of the issues he raised were discussed on the MBs long before Eveland released his report. Guys like you attack his credibility because you can't refute the facts he presented.

Gentlemen - as in the past debate is healthy However personal attacks are against the HNI rules and will not be tolerated!

Let's not go there.

JW

If this is true then why has PA. Pope and Young entries declined since 2004. And any buck entered prior to 2004 had nothing to do with antler restrictions. Pike

Guys like Cochy see a few pics of big bucks in the newspaper and think that AR's has greatly increased the number of 2.5+ buck,but they never look at the actual data on the 2.5+ buck harvest. If they did ,they would know that in 2009 we only harvested 2,300 more 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002 ,when none of the 2.5 buck were produced by ARs. They also ignore the fact that the harvest of 8+ pt. buck only increased by 17% from 2001 to 2009, while Alt predicted it would increase by 100%.

blueb,respectfully reason that the 8 point increased by 17% is following from what i see.
pgc allowed this mentoured kids thing which i feel is awful. a kid at 5 yrs old can shoot ANY buck.from my info at butcher shops this is happening.from what i see in field, this is happening.this is reducing the bucks that reach a 8 point.

next 12/16 yr olds can shoot any buck.this is problem too because this is not allowing little bucks to grow up.are the 12/16 yr olds shooting the little bucks themselves, some are MANY ARE NOT.that is awful too.

then now you have less doe do to HR,hunters are not letting a button buck walk.they want BEEF JERKY,so they shoot the fawns.

THIS IS ALL REDUCING THE NUMBER OF BUCKS THAT MAKE IT TOO 8 POINT.i am surprised that it is working 17%.

it could work 100% if above was stopped.
1.mentoured kids rule is way for dad to fill his freezer
2.12/16 hunters in crews,ADULTS are shooting at any buck as long as 12/16 is there.
3.button bucks shot by desperate meat hunters

unless these 3 things are addressed, i see 17% going lower.

The number of buck harvested by junior hunters is so small state that it has little or no effect on the number of 1.5 buck carried over. Also,remember some of the successful junior hunters are killing 6 and 8 pts.

Alt made the claim that ARs would double the number of 8 pts. knowing that junior hunters and active military were exempt and he knew that with increased antlerless harvests the BB harvest would also increase.

i did see a lot of huge bucks PICTURES killed by 5 yr old to 7 yr old kids,huge with 12 point racks on PUBLICLAND at 21 degrees.but when i went to 2 butcher shops in clinton/lycoming co.I GOT DIFFERENT PICTURE.

they said they had a LOT of bucks under the 3 point rule, a lot and kids when asked did not hardly know what a gun was let alone what caliber it was.
so a LOT of small bucks are being killed according to butcher shops.

No, you did not see a lot of pictures of 5-7 yr.olds with 12 pt. buck and nobody believes that you did. Until you can provide actual PGC data on the number of non-AR legal buck harvested by junior hunters, the majority of the MB members will say you are just blowing smoke.
Junior hunters are not the problem and are the future of deer hunting in PA. The PGC is the problem and making junior hunters abide by the ARs will just reduce the number of future hunters while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

many believe what i say blue,many. you have right to believe what you think but dont say NOBODY believes me.
many times i asked if anyone would go with me to see and hear what i comment on.
as for pics, I ALSO POSTED THE NEWSPAPERS THAT HAD PICS OF 5 YR OLD GIRLS IN PINK WITH BUCKS And big ones.sorry,i did make mistake the 1 buck was 13 point,not 12 point.

never said JUNIOR IS PROBLEM.actually its ADULTS that are not letting the KIDS shoot their own bucks that are and will ruin the AR . what i said is IF THE SMALL BUCKS ARE HARVESTED BY THE KIDS 5 YRS OLD TO 17YRS OLD,i cant see AR working 100% as you stated dr.alt said it would.

hey, i am active member in USP too and i disagree with their rule no.2 to go back to killing the spike bucks like it was before.

to me, AR is great thing but it will only work if ADULTS dont use it to fill the freezer.

Junior hunters were exempt from ARs from the start so Alt knew they would be harvesting a very small percentage of the non-AR legal buck and he still claimed ARs would double the number of 8 pts and it didn't come close. But the main reason it didn't is due to continued HR and high BB harvests, not juniors or their parents shooting 1.5 buck.

When trying to make a point... you discredit yourself by not spell checking, or using proper punctuation. I'm not going to waste my time on this banter. In the end everything boils down to one simple thing. If you don't like something either; do something about it or shut up and stop complaining. Moving forward, since I do not have an issue with the anterlered deer management program I will shut up. As for you sir, I hear Ohio is a great place to hunt.

That is the typical response from someone that can't support their opinions with facts and is looking for a way to gracefully bow out of the discussion.

blue,RESPECTFULLY,you are not correct.
i ate lunch at meeting with state rep from my area with DR.ALT.before this our local sportsmans president was crying,DR.ALT WE HAVE TO ALLOW KIDS TO KILL ANY BUCK,PLEASE DR.ALT, PLEASE.
if alt only knew that this so called sportsman FOUND a way to fill his freezer.he did not care anything for kids, it was a WAY to get meat.

BLUE,up to that time, listen, up to that time there WAS NOT GOING TO BE A AR EXEMPTION FOR KIDS.it was going to be 3 points for ALL.
that is fact, it came out of his mouth in front of 500 hunters at lock haven university.i was there and asked what i thought of it by state rep.
I DID NOT LIKE IT BECAUSE I SAW WAY FOR HUNTERS TO OUTLAW AND USE KIDS AS A WAY TO DO IT.

now what i say is happening. 5 yr old girls in pink with sneakers on shooting 13 point bucks with WEE- 0-8 AND NO TAG NECESSARY.

so when dr.alt spoke possibly the AR exemption for babies was not in affect.
i can tell you this,AR IS WORKING BUT WILL NOT GET TOO 100% UNLESS ALL OUTLAWING AND STUPID BABY SHOOTING A 13 POINT STOPS.

Apparently you forgot that Alt continued to make his predictions about the effects of ARs long after junior hunters were exempted from the effects of ARs. His claim about more and larger bucks appeared in the Hunting Digest until 2008.

Furthermore, even if some parents are using their kids tag to harvest non-AR legal buck, the PGC is still claiming that ARs are protecting 50% of the 1.5 yr. buck, which is what Alt predicted. You may or may not have a problem in your area,it definitely is not a statewide problem and it is not the reason why ARs failed to double the number of 8 pts.

Looking for new areas to hunt in central PA
 

Figured I would post something other than the back and forth bickering about the AR and Dr. Alt. I am always looking for new places to hunt around the central PA region, does anyone know of a good area. I prefer places I can put up game cameras place a food plot and observe the area. I have been noticing that there are quality deer here in PA have been seeing large deer in areas you can not hunt due to the laws of beeing so far from a structure. I will try to post a picture of a non-typical 8 point that eats from my side yard in a development..

start a new topic. we are busy EXPOSING truth about deer hunting in pa.:eek2:

You might want to check your rule book again. PA is far less strict on distance from a structure you may hunt than in MD. To my knowledge you can hunt 40 yards from an occupied structure. That is for archery only, I don't hunt deer with a gun anymore, but I think that's only like 100 yards. I wouldn't plan on putting up a camera....

Start a new thread...

You might want to check your rule book again. The safety for archery is 50 yds. and for rifle hunters it is 150 yds. and that is from occupied buildings, farm buildings and commercial buildings.

Wow, 17% is significant.

Yes a 17% increase is a significant failure when ARs were predicted to increase the number of 8 pts. by 100%. Furthermore, it is an indication that we may be high grading our buck just like in MIss.